Giantslayer: Anvil of Fire (revised) (Inactive)

Game Master Artofregicide

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Male HP: 79 Init: +5 Perception +8, Darkvision, AC 22 (24 w/bow in hand), touch 14, flat-footed 18/(20 W/Bow) (+6 Armor, +3 Dex, +1 Deflection, +2 Natural, (+2 Shield w/Bow)) Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +6; +2 vs. negative levels, CMD 26 (FF 23) Half-orc Fighter 1 (Lore Warden, Unbreakable)/Sorcerer 4

So, to be clear...Fulk is back in the room with the others, but looks like the mage? I'm completely lost right now. And probably at least as confused IC.


Male Human Wizard 15th
Ulmo Nargrymkin wrote:
I think that I’m good for the round, but checking in

You're good. You've killed the Faceless Stalker beside, so Argea is also no longer grappled.

Fulk the Red wrote:
So, to be clear...Fulk is back in the room with the others, but looks like the mage? I'm completely lost right now. And probably at least as confused IC.

The Mage dimension door'd the dominated Dizzy and charmed Fulk into the main room.

Right now, Fulk looks, feels, and smells like the Mage.

The Mage looks, feels, and smells just like Fulk.

He swapped with you, basically, hoping your party members will attack you thinking you're him.


HP 134, AC 33, F +21, R +23, W +22, Per +21 Sorcerer 14
Artofregicide wrote:
Ulmo Nargrymkin wrote:
All of these mind-shenanigans is making this a very unique encounter. GM, for next round please tell me if can I heal Ingrahild in the update. With all of the effects happening I would rather ask now than try later only to find out that it is impossible.
Very unique = needlessly complicated. I'll say it :)

It is complicated, but I'm enjoying it, minus a little frustration at the incredibly bad series of Will saves I (and others) have had. Especially for me, Will is supposed to be my best feature, but just brutally bad.

That said, it's a lot more dynamic than the usual 1e walk up to the foe and bash at each other.


Current Spells:
Anticipate Thoughts (CL 13), Freedom of Movement (CL 13), Mage Armor (cl 13), Overland Flight (cl 13), Heroism (cl 13)
HP: 44 (114 ) | AC: 32/36; T: 28; FF: 17/22 | CMB: +16; CMD: 36 | Fort: +13; Ref: +14; Will: +12 +2 w/Heroism | Init +14 | Arcane Pool: 11 (13) | Always Defensively Casting | Enemies within my reach have a -4 penalty to concentration checks and provoke an AoO if they fail a concentration check | I have Resist 5 to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Fire |

I actually tend to find combats with mind control to be the most challenging combats in the game from both a RP and mechanically standpoint.

They also tend to breed the most creativity: What specifically are the commands/suggestions I can give to prevent additional saves? Who is the best target for my abilities?

It's one of the reasons the Mesmerist is one of my favorite PF1 classes.


F Human | Init: 3x | hp 112+17/112 | AC 26, T 14, FF 26 50%fort | F+10 R+7 W+11| CMD 32 | Perc+15 | Spells L6: 2/4, L5: 5/7, L4: 4/7, L3: 6/7, L2: 4/7, L1: 7/8, Obedience 1/1 | Current Effects: 1 neglvl

D'oh, forgot I had the 30 ft fly speed from Angelic Aspect when I was making my way out of the silence.

Artofregicide wrote:

Protection from evil does not negate all enchantment (including suggestion). It does protect from direct control like possession and dominate. See the second post of this link

I understand there are limitations, and I'm fine moving forward with how things are. I only brought it up because I've ruled otherwise with regard to suggestion when I've run games. I don't think Mr. Jacobs' opinion jives with how the rules are actually written - "Puppet-like" control is only an effect of 1/3 of the spells that are specifically called out as being blocked. Charm and Command are called out again as being "mental control" in this FAQ. Suggestion is a compulsion that offers significantly more mental control over the target than the favorable feelings and requests of Charm Person. It also offers similar but longer lasting effects to Command, but gives the caster much more control over what the target is compelled to do. I think suggestion is directly in line with these spells as an effect that Protection from Evil would guard against.


Male Human Wizard 15th
Argea Godhand wrote:

D'oh, forgot I had the 30 ft fly speed from Angelic Aspect when I was making my way out of the silence.

Artofregicide wrote:

Protection from evil does not negate all enchantment (including suggestion). It does protect from direct control like possession and dominate. See the second post of this link

I understand there are limitations, and I'm fine moving forward with how things are. I only brought it up because I've ruled otherwise with regard to suggestion when I've run games. I don't think Mr. Jacobs' opinion jives with how the rules are actually written - "Puppet-like" control is only an effect of 1/3 of the spells that are specifically called out as being blocked. Charm and Command are called out again as being "mental control" in this FAQ. Suggestion is a compulsion that offers significantly more mental control over the target than the favorable feelings and requests of Charm Person. It also offers similar but longer lasting effects to Command, but gives the caster much more control over what the target is compelled to do. I think suggestion is directly in line with these spells as an effect that Protection from Evil would guard against.

I've always ruled this differently, but I think you are correct. I've always treated the "new attempts to possess or exercise mental control over the target" as being separate from the first clause, but with the FAQ I see this isn't the case. In which case Argea would be immune to suggestion. This vastly upgrades the power of an already exceptionally overpowered 1st level spell, but hey, it'll apply to your enemies as well... such as enchantment vulnerable giants... and potions of protection from X are 50 gp... :)

TL;DR: In light of the FAQ, the scope of protection from X spells have been significantly expanded.

Argea wouldn't have been targeted by the Mass Suggestion in the first place, because the Mage would have known she was immune. We'll ignore your second post and assume she has moved out of the silence and hit herself with heal...


Male Human Wizard 15th

Sorry for how long my post has been taking. I've been trying to get back into a normal posting rate but life (and my job in particular) have been fighting that furiously.

Nevertheless, new post is up.

Argea Godhand wrote:
Is there any way to know if the holy damage wasn't taking effect? Also, in case that hits and interaction happens...

My mistake, I got turns mixed up. You definitely hit, but there's no way that you can tell the holy damage isn't going through. It still activates, just doesn't effect Fulk.

That said, simply attacking Fulk gives you a Will Save (which you crush) by interacting, but it doesn't dispel the disguise, only lets you realize that it is a disguise...


Male Human Wizard 15th

So Umlo is ignoring the command he's been given?


Relic Hunter Inquisitor (13) Wounds (0) HP (126) Saves (16/11/17) AC (37/14/34, +2 vs crit confirmation) Initiative (+8) CMD (36, +4 Bullrush/Trip, +5 Disarm) Abj (8/8) Trans (7/9) Conj (3/3) L1(6/6) L2(5/6) L3(5/5) L4(4/4) L5(1/2) WCLW (50/50) 10ft Trick (1/1)

Yup. Enemies attacked us, have proven themselves able to mess with our minds, and now want to deal? No dice. He’s going to save her and rip them to pieces, because he isn’t thinking straight.

If they kill her then he will torture them to death and make artwork out of their bones. Probably. Depends if he can raise her or not.


Male Human Wizard 15th
Ulmo Nargrymkin wrote:

Yup. Enemies attacked us, have proven themselves able to mess with our minds, and now want to deal? No dice. He’s going to save her and rip them to pieces, because he isn’t thinking straight.

If they kill her then he will torture them to death and make artwork out of their bones. Probably. Depends if he can raise her or not.

Okay, so Juliac will take her readied action then. Just making sure.

FYI, if he commits a bunch of evil actions, he will fall. I'm not telling you how to play your character (you could theoretically even find a deity more sympathetic to your darker urges) but there are consequences to playing things like the bad guys do.

Luckily, you are at a level where raising from the dead is very possible. Also breath of life, though I think Argea is too far away?


Relic Hunter Inquisitor (13) Wounds (0) HP (126) Saves (16/11/17) AC (37/14/34, +2 vs crit confirmation) Initiative (+8) CMD (36, +4 Bullrush/Trip, +5 Disarm) Abj (8/8) Trans (7/9) Conj (3/3) L1(6/6) L2(5/6) L3(5/5) L4(4/4) L5(1/2) WCLW (50/50) 10ft Trick (1/1)

Yup. Well...there is always This god

“ Dranngvit is Torag's half-sister although some legends claim she was supposed to have been Torag's wife but lost out to Folgrit. Dranngvit is a dwarven deity but is seen as a necessary evil rather than a beloved deity. Most pay her worship only when they know they have wronged someone. The only dwarves who choose her as their actually patron deity are normally those consumed by hatred and nothing else. Dranngvit may be the mother of Kols, but even if she is, Folgrit still treats Kols like a son.[1]”

Totally ok falling to LE if that happens. If that happens, Ulmo will decide that Torag hasn’t done enough to protect his people, and that they have held back far too much. That survival is only possible by taking complete and utter vengeance on all enemies of his people.


HP 134, AC 33, F +21, R +23, W +22, Per +21 Sorcerer 14
Ulmo Nargrymkin wrote:
When you brought it up I thought you were saying someone cast it on me. Guess I’m charmed. It’s the unluckiest result.

The die roller has continued to kill us on Will saves. It's not even that the DC has been that high, we've just rolled horribly on them. That completely changed the complexion of this encounter.


Relic Hunter Inquisitor (13) Wounds (0) HP (126) Saves (16/11/17) AC (37/14/34, +2 vs crit confirmation) Initiative (+8) CMD (36, +4 Bullrush/Trip, +5 Disarm) Abj (8/8) Trans (7/9) Conj (3/3) L1(6/6) L2(5/6) L3(5/5) L4(4/4) L5(1/2) WCLW (50/50) 10ft Trick (1/1)

Yup! And a single failed will save usually means being out of commission. Likewise, now that I’m charmed, I apologize in advance if Ulmo is forced to murder any of you.

Speaking of which, as I’ve never dealt with charm before, can Ulmo focus his attention on the last stalker now? Because if all this does is make the mage his best friend, then his anger at the stalker for killing his sister should still be there. If I can do that, then this still might buy some time for someone else to fix this debacle.


Male Human Wizard 15th
Vashta Denaria wrote:
Ulmo Nargrymkin wrote:
When you brought it up I thought you were saying someone cast it on me. Guess I’m charmed. It’s the unluckiest result.
The die roller has continued to kill us on Will saves. It's not even that the DC has been that high, we've just rolled horribly on them. That completely changed the complexion of this encounter.

You're not wrong. If it's any consolation, charm isn't direct mind control. Plus if Argea can get protection from evil on him, he'll get a reroll...


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Male Human Wizard 15th

I'm gonna try to get my next post up by Weds, just to keep the pace from dying. 1/week isn't really what I want, I'd rather have more like 3/week if possible (and I admit, I'm the big problem with that).


Relic Hunter Inquisitor (13) Wounds (0) HP (126) Saves (16/11/17) AC (37/14/34, +2 vs crit confirmation) Initiative (+8) CMD (36, +4 Bullrush/Trip, +5 Disarm) Abj (8/8) Trans (7/9) Conj (3/3) L1(6/6) L2(5/6) L3(5/5) L4(4/4) L5(1/2) WCLW (50/50) 10ft Trick (1/1)

Did the best I could given that I’m charmed. At least everyone should now know who our Fulk is and where the real mage is.


Male Human Wizard 15th
Ulmo Nargrymkin wrote:
Did the best I could given that I’m charmed. At least everyone should now know who our Fulk is and where the real mage is.

Interesting tactic, trying to defuse the fight. But yeah, that's assuming the rest of the party believes you...


Male Human Wizard 15th

Well, combat is over.

For the record, that encounter was not originally in the playtest document, but I'm definitely going to include the tweaked version in the final document as an optional encounter. It helps explain how exactly the Storm Tyrant is able to so easily infiltrate and eliminate high level humanoid threats.

That turned out to a be much, much tougher fight than expected. Admittedly, some of that was just a series of the awful rolls on your part and very good rolls on the part of the enemy.

You also didn't prep for combat, but that reflects that fact that your characters had no reason to believe they were going to go up against anything more than a few thugs - none of the Sczarni were higher than level 10, and most of them were CR1-2.

Technically, I did slightly miscalculate the CR of the encounter, there should have only been one faceless stalker not two. Overall, they weren't meant to be particularly instrumental in the combat but turned out to be pretty efficient sources of damage and control (especially when given a few key buffs like haste and greater invisibility).

Also, having an group of opponents who were all coordinated via telepathy by a caster who was able to throw down spells but wasn't accessible was pretty brutal.

The biggest thing was the combo of an otherwise unremarkable NPC mesmerist with a caster with very strong enchantment spells (dominate monster, quickened dominate person) and otherwise unremarkable damage dealing monsters (the faceless stalkers).

Feel free to give constructive criticism.

Regardless, the party has faced defeat unless there's something I'm not aware of at play.

As I have no intention of ending the playtest here. If you're all willing to continue, we have a few options:

1) Continue to play as is. Your characters will not die, and this will probably get you to Ashpeak faster than expected. In all likelihood, the party will be captured and taken to the Ashpeak Dungeons where they'll have to attempt a daring escape. Some players really enjoy that kind of thing, some don't. It takes some narrative power away from the players, so it's not something I'll force on you.

2) Similar to option 1, except the "Mage" doesn't hand you over to the giants and instead either sends you to Ashpeak or helps you there for reasons of its own.

3) Retcon the encounter so that the "Mage" is killed/escapes/is generally removed from the plot. We move forward with you interrogating Juliac, who you've presumably removed the dominate effect from.

My preference between these is the option that the party is most happy with, so don't take my feelings into account.


Current Spells:
Anticipate Thoughts (CL 13), Freedom of Movement (CL 13), Mage Armor (cl 13), Overland Flight (cl 13), Heroism (cl 13)
HP: 44 (114 ) | AC: 32/36; T: 28; FF: 17/22 | CMB: +16; CMD: 36 | Fort: +13; Ref: +14; Will: +12 +2 w/Heroism | Init +14 | Arcane Pool: 11 (13) | Always Defensively Casting | Enemies within my reach have a -4 penalty to concentration checks and provoke an AoO if they fail a concentration check | I have Resist 5 to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Fire |

1) I would vote for #1. I think that escaping from prison could work, and we'd have motivation to go deal with the mage after Ashpeak (cause mind magic is brutal when applied correctly, which imo you did). I think this option keeps things moving forward but doesn't invalidate our loss.


Relic Hunter Inquisitor (13) Wounds (0) HP (126) Saves (16/11/17) AC (37/14/34, +2 vs crit confirmation) Initiative (+8) CMD (36, +4 Bullrush/Trip, +5 Disarm) Abj (8/8) Trans (7/9) Conj (3/3) L1(6/6) L2(5/6) L3(5/5) L4(4/4) L5(1/2) WCLW (50/50) 10ft Trick (1/1)

I posted in gameplay before reading this...

...and I have to say, I enjoyed the fight. It was one of the toughest I’ve experienced. One idea going forward is those left behind could be put under a geas. To continue the mission, but with the mage planning on taking over and using the party to do so. It would let us continue, but with a consequence for losing. It also shows that you can’t trust powerful evil minions, because they are both powerful and evil.


Male Human Wizard 15th

Thanks for the compliments. I admit I was a bit disorganized, and got some stuff wrong, so thanks for sticking with me. Also... the monster you fought is pretty under CR for what it is.

Speaking of which, it does have Geas 3/day...


Male HP: 79 Init: +5 Perception +8, Darkvision, AC 22 (24 w/bow in hand), touch 14, flat-footed 18/(20 W/Bow) (+6 Armor, +3 Dex, +1 Deflection, +2 Natural, (+2 Shield w/Bow)) Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +6; +2 vs. negative levels, CMD 26 (FF 23) Half-orc Fighter 1 (Lore Warden, Unbreakable)/Sorcerer 4

Good luck to you all, but I don't think I'll be continuing. It's gotten to the point where I'm resigned to having to play this game, instead of looking forward to it. Every time I see new posts on my campaigns page, I think to myself "I guess I'd better post something. I wonder how many Will saves I'll fail this time. Oh, just a skill save DC I can't make with a 20? That's....better, I guess?" Now, part of that is my fault; I was concentrating on building a mounted combatant, and didn't pay enough attention to shoring up his weaknesses. But here we are. It's the character I have, and it's not really one that's suitable for the game we're playing. Best of luck to you, but you should have somebody who wants to be here. Not someone who dreads opening the gameplay thread to find out what he's dominated into doing this turn.


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Male Human Wizard 15th
Fulk the Red wrote:
Good luck to you all, but I don't think I'll be continuing. It's gotten to the point where I'm resigned to having to play this game, instead of looking forward to it. Every time I see new posts on my campaigns page, I think to myself "I guess I'd better post something. I wonder how many Will saves I'll fail this time. Oh, just a skill save DC I can't make with a 20? That's....better, I guess?" Now, part of that is my fault; I was concentrating on building a mounted combatant, and didn't pay enough attention to shoring up his weaknesses. But here we are. It's the character I have, and it's not really one that's suitable for the game we're playing. Best of luck to you, but you should have somebody who wants to be here. Not someone who dreads opening the gameplay thread to find out what he's dominated into doing this turn.

That's understandable, though I wish you'd told me sooner. I can't do anything if I don't know. I'll admit that it was a pretty messy combat in several ways. On the other hand, high level PF1e does include the reality of abilities that negate a character's ability to act on both sides.

On the other other hand, I can say that the vast majority of encounters you will be facing going forward won't be like this one. I can't promise you won't fight any other creatures with mind-affecting abilities, but it won't the mainstay. Additionally, this ended up being probably one of the hardest encounters I've written.

Ultimately, I'm completely fine with you calling it quits, especially if this encounter poisoned the well for you. At the end of the day, having fun is the point.

If you want to continue, you can rebuild your character or create a new one. You've been a great player and I don't want to see you go, but I'll respect your decision.

Feel free to PM me if you'd like.


HP 134, AC 33, F +21, R +23, W +22, Per +21 Sorcerer 14

I want to give a longer set of thoughts, but I'm technically at work after spending all morning at PaizoCon, so may have to wait.

That said, I think options 1 or 2 make the most sense. I'm certainly happy to do a prison break -- with Vashta's powers, hopefully that wouldn't be too soul sucking.

Like I said, I'll post some other general thoughts ASAP. Fulk, if you do leave, sorry to see you go.


Male Human Wizard 15th
Vashta Denaria wrote:

I want to give a longer set of thoughts, but I'm technically at work after spending all morning at PaizoCon, so may have to wait.

That said, I think options 1 or 2 make the most sense. I'm certainly happy to do a prison break -- with Vashta's powers, hopefully that wouldn't be too soul sucking.

Like I said, I'll post some other general thoughts ASAP. Fulk, if you do leave, sorry to see you go.

If you can describe something as soul sucking, I think that directly translates to unfun. And that's something I want to avoid.


HP 134, AC 33, F +21, R +23, W +22, Per +21 Sorcerer 14

That's true, and I'm not sure why I said it like that. It may have been work was soul crushing me, but I have no problem with trying to do a prison break. I think those *are* fun -- as long as no characters are too hampered because of lack of gear/components/etc.

--

As promised, some more thorough thoughts about the game so far. I'm trying to be coherent, but I apologize if they're a little rambly.

I think the combats feel *very* difficult. We had one character die outright in the first fight and pretty much a total defeat in the second. Now, that's not all on the design/GM, by any means. The first fight we went out all willy-nilly (plus were caught unprepared), and unlike what would presumably happen if we were part of a long-running campaign, we don't know how each other's characters work. Worse, since we're building at high levels, we might still be figuring out how our *own* characters work.

The second fight we again underestimated our foes/were unprepared. A lot of 1e fights end up feeling really easy because of buffing when you know it's coming but we haven't done that at all yet. We also suffered some truly horrible rolls. Honestly, part of me wants to just start this fight over again and see how it would go with a different set of rolls. Vashta was rendered almost completely useless for the whole fight because she rolled so badly on her best fricking save.

Now, those caveats about our player errors aside, I would say that I'm not used to fights being this deadly. I think most of the games, there can be challenges, but I expect the PCs to overcome them. Still, that's a matter of setting expectations. We've got a better idea, and will prepare more and make sure we've got our buffs/etc, (if not, clearly we're going to get our asses kicked again).

So, yeah, I think/hope we've got a better handle on the style/expectations of the game and will be ready for that.

--

As for how to continue, I'm perfectly happy to go with No. 1 or 2 above. That said, you said you wanted to playtest your adventure, so No. 3 may be the best option. My feeling as a designer is if I'm playtesting, I want to see how it goes with what I've got prepared. You learned a lesson here -- and added an encounter to your adventure -- and that's perfect. If you want to advance to the next section, that's fine. But if part of your document involves the deal with the red dragon and/or the assassins, or traveling to the Ashpeaks (or getting us to go somewhere else...) and you want to see how that goes, then I would suggest we use this as a lesson learned but proceed with your adventure as written. I don't know how my fellow players feel about that idea, but I'm comfortable with it. You pitched this as a playtest, which means part of what I signed up to do was run through what you've written.


Relic Hunter Inquisitor (13) Wounds (0) HP (126) Saves (16/11/17) AC (37/14/34, +2 vs crit confirmation) Initiative (+8) CMD (36, +4 Bullrush/Trip, +5 Disarm) Abj (8/8) Trans (7/9) Conj (3/3) L1(6/6) L2(5/6) L3(5/5) L4(4/4) L5(1/2) WCLW (50/50) 10ft Trick (1/1)

I’m fine with any of the options, to be honest.

Also would you be open to some slight rebuilds? As noted above, both encounters thus far have been very difficult. I feel that having better saves is something to prioritize on, and I skimped on that at character creation.


Male Human Wizard 15th
Vashta Denaria wrote:

That's true, and I'm not sure why I said it like that. It may have been work was soul crushing me, but I have no problem with trying to do a prison break. I think those *are* fun -- as long as no characters are too hampered because of lack of gear/components/etc.

--

As promised, some more thorough thoughts about the game so far. I'm trying to be coherent, but I apologize if they're a little rambly.

I think the combats feel *very* difficult. We had one character die outright in the first fight and pretty much a total defeat in the second. Now, that's not all on the design/GM, by any means. The first fight we went out all willy-nilly (plus were caught unprepared), and unlike what would presumably happen if we were part of a long-running campaign, we don't know how each other's characters work. Worse, since we're building at high levels, we might still be figuring out how our *own* characters work.

The second fight we again underestimated our foes/were unprepared. A lot of 1e fights end up feeling really easy because of buffing when you know it's coming but we haven't done that at all yet. We also suffered some truly horrible rolls. Honestly, part of me wants to just start this fight over again and see how it would go with a different set of rolls. Vashta was rendered almost completely useless for the whole fight because she rolled so badly on her best fricking save.

Now, those caveats about our player errors aside, I would say that I'm not used to fights being this deadly. I think most of the games, there can be challenges, but I expect the PCs to overcome them. Still, that's a matter of setting expectations. We've got a better idea, and will prepare more and make sure we've got our buffs/etc, (if not, clearly we're going to get our asses kicked again).

So, yeah, I think/hope we've got a better handle on the style/expectations of the game and will be ready for that.

--

As for how to continue, I'm perfectly happy to go with No. 1 or 2 above. That said, you said you wanted to playtest...

Fair enough. I think we'll avoid the prison escape, because it doesn't inspire "Whoa, that sounds cool!". Plus it does jump you straight into Ashpeak, actually fairly deep into the fortress.

Right now, I think option 2 is looking the best.

Never apologize for rambling! Or at least, I never do :P

The first encounter turned out to be more or less as difficult as I wanted, especially with 1/3rd of the party not joining the fight for 5~ rounds. If Umlo and Ingrahild had jumped in from the beginning, I think it would have gone a lot, lot differently.

I'd also agree that this current encounter turned out to be a lot harder than I'd hoped. Challenging is good. A combat running 10~ rounds is something I'd rather save for a boss, not a side encounter. Which is why I'll make this encounter optional, and put a warning on it. Plus, unless you're running a party of 5+, it shouldn't be encountered until a higher level (as written, it's CR15). Your group is 6 13th level characters (5 PCs and 1 NPC) so that's EPL 14~ which makes the encounter CR+1, whereas it ran more like CR+3 or CR+4.

I do like the cleverness of the "Mage" turned out to be really difficult to run and keep track of all the illusions, enchantments, and symbols going on. In regards to bad rolls, you definitely had your fair share but I think the sheer number of saves you had to make ended up being what ended up being the concern.

Real identity of Mage:
The "Mage" is actually an Aboleth Veiled Master - CR14. I love the idea of combining the idea that the Varisian people's love of tattoos, including magic ones, with the Aboleth's obsession with Runes. Basically, it joined the Sczarni as a mercenary tattooed sorcerer and has been slowly manipulating its way up the ranks. Having an organization of human minions premade is exactly what a Veiled Master would want. Plus, a Veiled Master would have reason to want the establishment of a giant empire - giants are much easier to control than humans. So they work for Volstus by eliminating threats to his rule as a mercenary spymaster and fixer, all the time biding their time.

I like the idea of misdirection, and fighting an enemy that doesn't use sheer strength to be successful. It also illustrates the idea that you can't just build a cookie cutter character off the internet guides and just let them loose - you need to think tactically in combat (not saying you did that - just fighting against the idea that Pathfinder 1e combat is mindless).

Despite learning quite a few things during this playtest (which I thank all of you for), I feel like I have a pretty strong grip on PF1e mechanics. And I guess I took for granted that everyone in the group would too, but that is a dangerous assumption.

I will tell you that I've front-loaded some of the most difficult encounters unintentionally, and you've barely fought any giants. Which is not to say that I expect the rest of the AP to be a cakewalk, I've created it to be challenging. But I don't want it to be grueling.

Ulmo Nargrymkin wrote:

I’m fine with any of the options, to be honest.

Also would you be open to some slight rebuilds? As noted above, both encounters thus far have been very difficult. I feel that having better saves is something to prioritize on, and I skimped on that at character creation.

Most of your enemies (but not all) will focus on AC and damage, albeit I don't think many of them will be able to hit Umlo in a straight fight without a natural 20 when he's fully buffed.

I'd be open to a slight rebuild, though Umlo has decent saves as it is. More or less what they should be at this level. What do you have in mind?

You also made every single save against the "Mage" except the very last one, and there were a very significant number of high level saves (6th-9th level spells with a very high CHA).


HP 134, AC 33, F +21, R +23, W +22, Per +21 Sorcerer 14

I need to buy some cure potions. That was an unexpected omission.

I suspect we'll be a bit more proficient against giants, since that was also what we were expecting (even with the caveat that we wouldn't be facing only those). I certainly built to a degree with that intention (using my dodge to get close, for example).

--

And I'll reiterate that I did really enjoy the fights and that they were more complex than we often see in PF, even if I was a little frustrated especially in the latter one at being taken out of it. And that was as much on my rolls as the encounter design.


F Human | Init: 3x | hp 112+17/112 | AC 26, T 14, FF 26 50%fort | F+10 R+7 W+11| CMD 32 | Perc+15 | Spells L6: 2/4, L5: 5/7, L4: 4/7, L3: 6/7, L2: 4/7, L1: 7/8, Obedience 1/1 | Current Effects: 1 neglvl

I'd like to post more of my own thoughts later, sorry for the lag. Got a big deliverable coming up at work and I've been slammed. I didn't particularly enjoy the last fight either, for a few reasons, but I'm up for continuing forward. Part of it is character build for me too. I might ask to change a few build options. My saves aren't nearly as good as Ulmo's, and my spell list is very focused on self buffing and could probably stand to be a bit more of a general toolbox.


Current Spells:
Anticipate Thoughts (CL 13), Freedom of Movement (CL 13), Mage Armor (cl 13), Overland Flight (cl 13), Heroism (cl 13)
HP: 44 (114 ) | AC: 32/36; T: 28; FF: 17/22 | CMB: +16; CMD: 36 | Fort: +13; Ref: +14; Will: +12 +2 w/Heroism | Init +14 | Arcane Pool: 11 (13) | Always Defensively Casting | Enemies within my reach have a -4 penalty to concentration checks and provoke an AoO if they fail a concentration check | I have Resist 5 to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Fire |

My thoughts on the module so far:

The first fight with the giants and the dragon felt right for a "Welcome to the adventure" fight; it introduced the idea that all giants are dangerous combatants working alone, but can be really dangerous with cooperating together. There were some bad rolls, and I personally didn't feel super effective because I was without my weapon the entire time.

The second fight is really tough, but I think I like it.

I think that's is a bit much for what feels like it should be an optional encounter. In my mind, dominators should be at least mid-tier bosses; it feels a bit much to have one in what basically amounts to a side-fight. I think it might be a bit more interesting to have it as one of the fights in Ashpeak itself; maybe have it be in a room that the giants are all avoiding, because they've been mentally conditioned to be. Here's my reasoning why:

I think this fight might fit a bit better after the characters have discovered how to get to Ashpeak. I think the encounters beforehand should be geared towards pointing the group at the way to Ashpeak. Some of them can certainly be red herrings that lead to fights, but as I said above, Mind controllers should, imo, be used as midbosses. With said domination machine in the fort, you have a ready made reason why he would dominate and release the party: He wants to kick out the giants and take over Ashpeak, and some talented meat just fell into his lap. So a wipe doesn't mean the end of the group, since he'll find them to be just what he needs.

As I said above (and as someone who playes alot of mesmerists and enchanters) You played him really smart and were very precise the commands you gave (which makes alot of sense).

TL:DR I'd make the 2nd encounter an optional midboss at the fort as it can play pretty well into the story.


Relic Hunter Inquisitor (13) Wounds (0) HP (126) Saves (16/11/17) AC (37/14/34, +2 vs crit confirmation) Initiative (+8) CMD (36, +4 Bullrush/Trip, +5 Disarm) Abj (8/8) Trans (7/9) Conj (3/3) L1(6/6) L2(5/6) L3(5/5) L4(4/4) L5(1/2) WCLW (50/50) 10ft Trick (1/1)

I like that idea. Just to add something to it. The first fight was hard, but heroic. And marching into the thief lair made me feel like despite our struggles, our group were indeed heroes. Because even power players were helpless against us. It drove home the feeling that we were the best hope.

Getting hit by such a strong mage made us feel weak, because two desperate fights in a row at the start sets the tone. Also, it kind of blindsided me, because while the aboleth had a reason to be there, as a PC there wasn’t any buildup. So I really like the idea Dizzy had. It lets intelligent parties prepare by dropping hints, and punishes overconfident ones.

I’d also keep the encounter, minus the combat. It lets the party feel powerful, and it switches gears from combat to talking. Which is good, as when we leave town such interactions will be limited. Plus it lets the party proactively look for clues.


Male Human Wizard 15th

This is all very good feedback. I'm pretty much on the same page, in regards to how things went down.

I will consider moving the encounter a new location, but there are things going on in Ashpeak that might make that a little complicated.

In regards to moving forward, I think I'll just fiat things a bit. Are you okay with just going forward with option 2?


Current Spells:
Anticipate Thoughts (CL 13), Freedom of Movement (CL 13), Mage Armor (cl 13), Overland Flight (cl 13), Heroism (cl 13)
HP: 44 (114 ) | AC: 32/36; T: 28; FF: 17/22 | CMB: +16; CMD: 36 | Fort: +13; Ref: +14; Will: +12 +2 w/Heroism | Init +14 | Arcane Pool: 11 (13) | Always Defensively Casting | Enemies within my reach have a -4 penalty to concentration checks and provoke an AoO if they fail a concentration check | I have Resist 5 to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Fire |

sure.

Remind me when we've finished the adventure and I'll make some reccomendations of where I think this encounter can fit.


HP 134, AC 33, F +21, R +23, W +22, Per +21 Sorcerer 14

Sounds good ... and what Dizzy said.


Male Human Wizard 15th

So a very good thought to wrap up the Mage/Sczarni encounter is that the Mage doesn't come from nowhere if the party had played through the AP, probably begin hinting at their existence far earlier.

Also, had the party pre-buffed with protection from evil, the encounter would have been stupidly easy, probably involving the Mage just teleporting away after realizing they were essentially immune to all of its powers and then coming after them later when they were unprepared. It's too intelligent to just let them kill it while it flails helplessly.

If I do move this to Ashpeak, I'd have the benefit of being able to use Faceless Hulks...

* * * * *

In other news, I haven't heard from Fulk, so I presume he's gone (which is fine). I'm adding in another player, because I'm interested in seeing how my playtest works for 5+ players. If Fulk changes his mind I'll have Ingrahild shift to the background (not contribute in combat).

Otherwise Fulk will stay on Trunau to protect it from further attack.

Pad300 will be playing a human kineticist/monk who is essentially a waterbender. He will be a character all of you know, and have history with instead of just throwing a rando into the mix.

Let me know if you have questions.


Male HP: 79 Init: +5 Perception +8, Darkvision, AC 22 (24 w/bow in hand), touch 14, flat-footed 18/(20 W/Bow) (+6 Armor, +3 Dex, +1 Deflection, +2 Natural, (+2 Shield w/Bow)) Fort +10, Ref +7, Will +6; +2 vs. negative levels, CMD 26 (FF 23) Half-orc Fighter 1 (Lore Warden, Unbreakable)/Sorcerer 4
Artofregicide wrote:
In other news, I haven't heard from Fulk, so I presume he's gone (which is fine). I'm adding in another player, because I'm interested in seeing how my playtest works for 5+ players. If Fulk changes his mind I'll have Ingrahild shift to the background (not contribute in combat).

I'd been thinking it over, but I'm not going to return. Go ahead and remove me from the campaign. Best of luck all! You're going to need it.


Male Human Wizard 15th
Fulk the Red wrote:
Artofregicide wrote:
In other news, I haven't heard from Fulk, so I presume he's gone (which is fine). I'm adding in another player, because I'm interested in seeing how my playtest works for 5+ players. If Fulk changes his mind I'll have Ingrahild shift to the background (not contribute in combat).
I'd been thinking it over, but I'm not going to return. Go ahead and remove me from the campaign. Best of luck all! You're going to need it.

Understandable, and much needed. Best of luck to you too.


M Tiefling Monk (Water Dancer) 1 / Kineticist (12)

I'm gonna drop the tactics discussion here, because I'm not sure if Ingrahild has caught me up on the situation yet...

But, according to our infobot NPC, we have "Trebor and Jors Vinderheim, a pair of famous cloud giants who have made their names on tracking and defeating dragons, almost exclusively chromatic dragons. They ride a pair of well trained Mindspin greyfeather rocs, and typically hunt with an entourage of dire griffins. They're supposedly peerless archers, firing arrows the diameter of tree trunks."

Flying archers. This is a problem for this party - none of us are A) flight oriented, B) Long range oriented. Not to mention if we want to take prisoners, we need to catch them and they are way mobile on us...

I see 2 possibles,
A) if they are hunting Naxi, set up in her lair; whatever set of caves she's using. This would take minimize many of their advantages (flying, range), especially if we could seal the exit.
B) Airborne fight, with a bunch of us (all of us given the lack of flying in the party) on her back, concealed somehow...

Either will require some diplomacy with Naxi to get her to play. The second is going to require some sort of howdah for Naxi (?maybe could make one to fit with Fabricate?) and some magic to hide it on her (?major image?)


Relic Hunter Inquisitor (13) Wounds (0) HP (126) Saves (16/11/17) AC (37/14/34, +2 vs crit confirmation) Initiative (+8) CMD (36, +4 Bullrush/Trip, +5 Disarm) Abj (8/8) Trans (7/9) Conj (3/3) L1(6/6) L2(5/6) L3(5/5) L4(4/4) L5(1/2) WCLW (50/50) 10ft Trick (1/1)

The cave ambush makes sense. It would trap them on land, between the party and an angry dragon. It would rob them of their greatest asset...I like it.


M Tiefling Monk (Water Dancer) 1 / Kineticist (12)

Yeah, I think the cave ambush is the better plan. Problem is, we have to a) talk Naxi into revealing her lair to a bunch of adventurers, and b) hope the giants go for it - they probably prefer an aerial fight, and thus will just wait for her to come out...


Current Spells:
Anticipate Thoughts (CL 13), Freedom of Movement (CL 13), Mage Armor (cl 13), Overland Flight (cl 13), Heroism (cl 13)
HP: 44 (114 ) | AC: 32/36; T: 28; FF: 17/22 | CMB: +16; CMD: 36 | Fort: +13; Ref: +14; Will: +12 +2 w/Heroism | Init +14 | Arcane Pool: 11 (13) | Always Defensively Casting | Enemies within my reach have a -4 penalty to concentration checks and provoke an AoO if they fail a concentration check | I have Resist 5 to Acid, Cold, Electricity, and Fire |

I can fly, and intend to engage them in melee combat. I think I even memorized mass fly.


Male Human Wizard 15th

Naximarra doesn't have a lair really, she's been on the run. You could still try to trap them in caves if you want, but it wouldn't take any more persuasion than normal.


F Human | Init: 3x | hp 112+17/112 | AC 26, T 14, FF 26 50%fort | F+10 R+7 W+11| CMD 32 | Perc+15 | Spells L6: 2/4, L5: 5/7, L4: 4/7, L3: 6/7, L2: 4/7, L1: 7/8, Obedience 1/1 | Current Effects: 1 neglvl

I like the cave ambush idea. The only fly speed I have short of Mass Fly is slow at 30 ft. Even mass fly is probably going to leave us slower than the archers though.

Cave ambush helps with that considerably.


HP 134, AC 33, F +21, R +23, W +22, Per +21 Sorcerer 14

Arto pointed out that Naxi doesn't have a lair here, so hopefully that shouldn't be as difficult. I agree that trying to do that sounds smart, though she may not appreciate the idea as much. Hopefully we can diplomance her into it.

Let's make sure we have lots of buffs up and available. We should all see if we can find protection from arrows, for starters. Vashta also wants to buy a few healing potions! That bleed damage was not helpful.

--

Also, welcome Trevil.


Relic Hunter Inquisitor (13) Wounds (0) HP (126) Saves (16/11/17) AC (37/14/34, +2 vs crit confirmation) Initiative (+8) CMD (36, +4 Bullrush/Trip, +5 Disarm) Abj (8/8) Trans (7/9) Conj (3/3) L1(6/6) L2(5/6) L3(5/5) L4(4/4) L5(1/2) WCLW (50/50) 10ft Trick (1/1)

Anyone have any abilities that can charm/dominate/control the mounts? Their Will saves are probably much worse than the riders’.


M Tiefling Monk (Water Dancer) 1 / Kineticist (12)

Can someone do some pre-encounter knowledge checks in the game thread - "Mindspin greyfeather rocs", "Dire Griffins", and "Cloud Giants". Let's figure out what we know. In particular, fly speeds - Mass Fly gives us a speed of 60'.

(PS. Can we cast Mass Fly, isn't it a 7th level spell?)

If Naximarra doesn't have a lair, I can actually make/expand one, suprisingly quickly - 1 5' cube per melee round in unworked rock (shift earth)... Adds up very quickly over 8 hours.

The problem is getting them to come on into our parlor. But if they wait, they have to sleep sometime. Do we have some sort of ability to spy on them (scrying), and go to them when they land to sleep?

Also, as Ulmo has indicated, the Rocs are key to this encounter. Disable them, and these guys are in deep kim-chi...


Male Human Wizard 15th
Trevil Rocksfall wrote:

Can someone do some pre-encounter knowledge checks in the game thread - "Mindspin greyfeather rocs", "Dire Griffins", and "Cloud Giants". Let's figure out what we know. In particular, fly speeds - Mass Fly gives us a speed of 60'.

...

Don't forget your fly speed is reduce by armor or encumbrance, if that matters.

Knowledge local to know about cloud giants in general.

Separate knowledge local to know about the dragon hunters specifically.

Knowledge nature for Mindspin Greyfeather Rocs.

Knowledge arcana for Dire Griffons.

Ingrahild has no more uses of loremaster but will take 10 on everything that you miss. Go ahead and roll though, you may easily get more info.


F Human | Init: 3x | hp 112+17/112 | AC 26, T 14, FF 26 50%fort | F+10 R+7 W+11| CMD 32 | Perc+15 | Spells L6: 2/4, L5: 5/7, L4: 4/7, L3: 6/7, L2: 4/7, L1: 7/8, Obedience 1/1 | Current Effects: 1 neglvl

Argea have big muscle and big smile, not big brain.

She could try asking around among the soldiers though, maybe, for this specific group.


HP 134, AC 33, F +21, R +23, W +22, Per +21 Sorcerer 14

Knowledge (local), cloud giants: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (6) + 7 = 13
Knowledge (local), dragon hunters: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (13) + 7 = 20

I might have done that later; sorry, trying to be helpful but also at work. :)

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