Preface to the Etiquette (ACE)
Indeed, message boards are now commonplace throughout the internet community. Perhaps not growing up in my primary schooling with the internet has led me to both acknowledge and consider how message boards are both used and abused. Every message board community is different specifically because the "rules" of the boards are enforced differently by moderators (or the lack thereof). I would suggest that in this particular community, the moderators (to the credit of Paizo and the staff), give great latitude as to the censorship applied to these boards. I, for one, appreciate that. The caveot, however, is that ownership for what is posted here typically falls squarely on the individual poster. It may be useful for many reasons to periodically assess what we are posting and how it is being posted in a broader sense of this community. To this end, i've simply gone to a general "Message Board Etiquette" website and provided us all here with some ideas to consider while posting here. I hope you find these useful.
Here are two key points:
Be kind and honest
Don't issue personal attacks, use profanity, or post threatening, abusive, harassing, or otherwise offensive language or images. You also may not impersonate another individual or communicate under a name that you are not entitled to use.
Do not post chain letters or advertisements
Chain letters are never appreciated in the online community, and they're a violation of your membership agreement with {blah}. Advertisements are just about as unwelcome, though there are a few boards just for this purpose at Keyword: Classifieds, under the "Using {blah blah blah} Classifieds" button.
Suggested Guidelines
In addition to your TOS commitments, there are some suggested guidelines for polite and responsible interaction on message boards A message board is an online discussion group where members can read and write messages to each other.:
Read the message board for a while before participating
It's best to browse a board for a while -- just reading -- before you post your first message. Read a couple week's worth of messages the first time you visit a board, and then read new messages for another couple of days. You'll see what topics are hot and which are cold, you'll get to know some of the key participants, and you'll become familiar with the demeanor of the board. Each one is different.
Communicate clearly
Write clearly when you compose a message. Review your message carefully before clicking Send; typos are confusing. Remember, if your message can be misunderstood, it will be.
Refrain from using ALL CAPS
Typing in all capital letters is frowned upon; it's the equivalent of screaming at everyone. It also makes your message more difficult to read.
Don't post meaningless messages
Posting messages that say nothing more than "Me too" is a quick way to irritate other members. If you agree with a posting, either enjoy your consent by yourself or reply with an informative comment about why you agree. Imagine how dull a board would get if it contained nothing but hundreds of "me too's."
Consider sending a reply by e-mail E-mail is typically a one-to-one communications system. With an AOL screen name, you can e-mail with other {blah blah} and Internet users.
Some replies are better sent as e-mail, rather than posted to a board. Personal messages and especially critical comments are more appropriate when sent directly and privately. There's an E-mail to Author option on every Post Response form; don't forget this option.
Refrain from crossposting
Crossposting means posting a single message to several different message boards, and it is almost never appropriate. Such posts tend to reduce the quality of the discussion and needlessly increase the traffic on the board. Find the best place for your post, and please confine your message to one board.
Quote from the post you're replying to
Include a small section of text from the post you're replying to, so others will have a quick reminder of the topic.
Be careful when posting personal information
Be careful about including private information about yourself, such as phone numbers and street addresses. Private information of that nature may be better sent by e-mail.
Follow the forum guidelines
Check the message board area for specific Forum Guidelines, such as rules concerning which topics should be posted in which folders, and answers to Frequently Asked Questions. These guidelines are often labeled READ THIS FIRST or GUIDELINES.
As ever,
ACE
Director of Narrative
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Why do paladins HAVE to be LG? I totally think that the idea of a clerical knight should have some structure, but what about paladins of non-LG gods? I mean why is it so strict? I also plan on ditching alignment all together and adding four more skill points per level to every class. What do you guys think?
Edit: (damn, I should have made that one long run-on and misspelled a few more things)
Me 3. I like are community.
Was there something in particular that made you feel like this community needed a lesson and if so, what?
just curious, I thought we were doing pretty well....FH
People tend to use the label "retard" more than I would like. I don't post very often, but read the boards several times a week. About two weeks ago there was a post in the rant thread about "social retards". My son has Asperger's Syndrom: "Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills... (T)hose with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying." http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html
He was kicked off the school bus because kids teased him and called him retard. "By definition, those with AS have a normal IQ and many individuals (although not all), exhibit exceptional skill or talent in a specific area." http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/aswhatisit.html
My son consistently scores at the top of his class in stardarized tests, but is mocked as a "dummy" because hand tremors prevent him from writing (an aid does most of it for him at school.)
"Retard" is a very charged word and I do not enjoy reading it, especially if I had to deal with the school that day. We have stuff like @$$ to not offend people, but "retard" is not filtered. Please use a different word.
I don't want to single anyone out, because most posters are very nice. I would just like to point out that word choice does matter.
WM
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I am sorry if someone offended you with a light-hearted comment but I am sure they were not intending to slur all people with a real disability.
Also I have some family members with severe disabilities (water on the brain, can't go to the bathroom by herself, can't speak). When I hear the word "retarded" and it is not being used in a medical sense, it isn't intended towards those who are actually retarded. It is usually used as a "stop acting ridiculous" type of phrasing.
People who are looking to be offended will always find something that is offensive.....grow a thicker skin.
I just found out that my 1yr 9mo old son is "signifigantly deficient in all areas of developement". He may be a bit slow but if someone uses the word "slow" in a sentence am I supposed to get all huffy because "you don't know my pain!"?
No. You take what people say in the context in which it was meant and not assign extra meanings due to a self sensativity issue. I am sure that I have offended people in the past and will probably do so in the future. Heck with all the people running around with chips on their shoulders it's hard not to offend someone unless everyone just decided to lock themselves in their houses and disconnect all outside stimuli.
Knock-knock.....who's there? Reality check.
FH(no apologies)
For different reasons, I think "retard" is a poor word to use in a discussion on a messageboard. It specifcially suggests that the person not only lacks a valid opinion, but does not have the right to put it forth, as they cannot form it appropriately. It generally is a way to stifle a person, and name calling always is bad, as you do not have to formulate a position to oppose someone, instead slinging insults.
Also, why use it when you can call someone a n00b, goober, cretin or fool? j/k!
FH, with you shipping all those D&D books to that 14 year old for free, I thought you'd gone soft on us. Nice to see you back to form.
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Why do paladins HAVE to be LG? I totally think that the idea of a clerical knight should have some structure, but what about paladins of non-LG gods? I mean why is it so strict? I also plan on ditching alignment all together and adding four more skill points per level to every class. What do you guys think?
Edit: (damn, I should have made that one long run-on and misspelled a few more things)
That's true.
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For different reasons, I think "retard" is a poor word to use in a discussion on a messageboard.
For the record, so do I. It is a word that is usually used in a juvenile fashion, but rarely as an actual insult towards people with actual retardation (although if it was, by all means, jaws need breaking).I also have heard people get offended at jokes or lighthearted conversations because their Auntie Bea's friend has a similar condition and it is "no laughing matter!". I had someone walk out of a party I was at because of the old "How do you get a one-armed dude out of a tree?" joke. "My father lost his arm last year!" was what she yelled as she stormed out (not my joke BTW). I just believe that if you are going to take life THAT seriously all the time, then you are probably a miserable person to be around and you need to thicken your skin or don't look for the insults in every line of conversation. Not everyone is out to personally attack you or your families sense of self with every sentence they utter.
I'm sure that their are people who disagree (their always are)and would like everyone to restrict and edit everything that COULD be construed as offensive to SOMEBODY, but this would be an excerpt of that messageboard:How is this houserule?
just wondering how you guys like this ruling I made..
FH
re:How is this houserule
why are you assuming I am a guy if I would respond to this. Or maybe you don't WANT women's opinions. It's people like you who are insensitive to women gamers who are perpetuating the stereotyping of female gamers.
signed.
Some Chick from the Web
An extreme example but not by too much if you find the right people involved.
I know I have offended some people(probably with every post I have made) and guess what? I have been offended sometimes too.
A bad messageboard is WotC's messageboards. There is a community I wouldn't want to be a part of. I try to respect all of the people here and hope that these posts aren't seen as an attack. They are not.
I gots nuttin' but love for yall,
Darn now the Southerners are going to be mad at me.
I better go before I offend everyone everywhere.
*pictures his happy place with the midgets running around carrying pitchers of beer* Damn, now the Little People too....
FH
Was there something in particular that made you feel like this community needed a lesson and if so, what?
just curious, I thought we were doing pretty well....FH
It's something that i promised i'd do on another thread but it was a digression from that topic...that's all.
As ever,
ACE
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For different reasons, I think "retard" is a poor word to use in a discussion on a messageboard. It specifcially suggests that the person not only lacks a valid opinion, but does not have the right to put it forth, as they cannot form it appropriately. It generally is a way to stifle a person, and name calling always is bad, as you do not have to formulate a position to oppose someone, instead slinging insults.
Also, why use it when you can call someone a n00b, goober, cretin or fool? j/k!
So long as no one mentions the word "munchkin", I'm fine.
More seriously, I think we need to be a bit careful about trying not to cause any offence at all. I have managed to offend a couple of people on this board (not too many) and have been offended in return. However, particularly in the more heated debates, saying, "You have offended me," is often a shortcut to closing down the debate and trying to win the argument (or at least finish it) without actually coming up with a proper cogent point. That is a disreputable debating technique, in my view.
Also, if someone is simply debating, or playing devil's advocate, or just throwing ideas around, saying "You have offended me" is just stupid. No one is trying to cause offence in those circumstances. So getting worked up just shows an overly thin skin and a desire to take oneself too seriously.
On the other hand, actually trying to cause offence should not have a place on these boards. It is sometimes tempting (and I occasionally submit to it, though usually delete such posts afterwards) to lash out if someone has written something particularly stupid. However, as this is a written medium and loses a lot of nuance as a result, it is quite easy to write something that can accidentally be misconstrued. And again, agression has no place in a civilised debate. In fact, the one thing that really offends me is someone getting offended at a harmless post I have written and retaliating. If anything should be banned, it is that.
Ultimately, this is a very friendly board, by and large - a genuine community. There will allways be little spats now and again, but I am sure they will not affect the warm spirit that prevails.
Gosh... (wipes away a tear)
Don't worry, Fake Healer, I predict you will get a visit from the spirits of the messageboards past, present and future and your curmudgeonly ways will be cured in time for the holidays. You might even start being nice to your clerk's developmentally disabled boy, who will end this touching tale by saying:
"The deity of your choice bestow his blessing upon us every one"
oops; I mean "his or her blessing" *wink*
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Don't worry, Fake Healer, I predict you will get a visit from the spirits of the messageboards past, present and future and your curmudgeonly ways will be cured in time for the holidays. You might even start being nice to your clerk's developmentally disabled boy, who will end this touching tale by saying:
"The deity of your choice bestow his blessing upon us every one"
oops; I mean "his or her blessing" *wink*
Bah and Humbug I say!
BTW: you may have offended the Atheist sect with that mention of Diety of choice....FH
I am sorry if someone offended you with a light-hearted comment but I am sure they were not intending to slur all people with a real disability.
Also I have some family members with severe disabilities (water on the brain, can't go to the bathroom by herself, can't speak). When I hear the word "retarded" and it is not being used in a medical sense, it isn't intended towards those who are actually retarded. It is usually used as a "stop acting ridiculous" type of phrasing.
People who are looking to be offended will always find something that is offensive.....grow a thicker skin.
I just found out that my 1yr 9mo old son is "signifigantly deficient in all areas of developement". He may be a bit slow but if someone uses the word "slow" in a sentence am I supposed to get all huffy because "you don't know my pain!"?
No. You take what people say in the context in which it was meant and not assign extra meanings due to a self sensativity issue. I am sure that I have offended people in the past and will probably do so in the future. Heck with all the people running around with chips on their shoulders it's hard not to offend someone unless everyone just decided to lock themselves in their houses and disconnect all outside stimuli.
Knock-knock.....who's there? Reality check.FH(no apologies)
I was trying to think of a response as well, without provoking any further hurt feelings. Fakey, you said it even better than I would of.
Nice response.
Ultradan
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I am sorry if someone offended you with a light-hearted comment but I am sure they were not intending to slur all people with a real disability.
Also I have some family members with severe disabilities (water on the brain, can't go to the bathroom by herself, can't speak). When I hear the word "retarded" and it is not being used in a medical sense, it isn't intended towards those who are actually retarded. It is usually used as a "stop acting ridiculous" type of phrasing.
People who are looking to be offended will always find something that is offensive.....grow a thicker skin.
I just found out that my 1yr 9mo old son is "signifigantly deficient in all areas of developement". He may be a bit slow but if someone uses the word "slow" in a sentence am I supposed to get all huffy because "you don't know my pain!"?
No. You take what people say in the context in which it was meant and not assign extra meanings due to a self sensativity issue. I am sure that I have offended people in the past and will probably do so in the future. Heck with all the people running around with chips on their shoulders it's hard not to offend someone unless everyone just decided to lock themselves in their houses and disconnect all outside stimuli.
Knock-knock.....who's there? Reality check.FH(no apologies)
I was trying to think of a response as well, without provoking any further hurt feelings. Fakey, you said it even better than I would of.
Nice response.
Ultradan
And I hope I'm not offending malformed people. Heathansson, I'm sorry if you thought I meant you.
I have to admit that this is the only message board I read or participate on, largely because *almost* everyone already follows most of the etiquette rules as a kind of default. I know I've probably inadvertently annoyed people with snide comments here and there; they're meant to be amusing, however, not rude. For the main part, nearly everything I've read from the other Paizoans here has been instructive, funny, or both. (I've been constently impressed in particular with the quality of responses and gaming advice: well thought out, logically reasoned, etc.). In short, let's keep it up.
Or, to summarize in brief: "me, too."
I agree with FH on this to a point. Certainly there should be some humour in the game and life BUT such humour can be hurtful at times. I happen to have Aspergers myself and you'd never realize I did from simply looking at me but it affects me in a subtle but at times infuriating way: I'm simply no good at reading tone of voice or body language properly unless the intent of the tone/body language is blindingly obvious. The subtler forms are lost on me and some other (though not necessarily all) people with Aspergers. So you could intend a comment to be harmless but it could come across as being mean-spirited or vicious simply because the cues didn't get through-which affects communication here on the boards since there are no nontyped cues to a persons intent. Also a person could have suffered a personal loss recently and making a joke about a similar situation could rub proverbial salt in the wound. It is possible to joke in a way that does not cause offence and simply laugh at something harmless and not get into the grey area of almost personal attack like jokes. If someone posted a racist, antisemitic or misogynist comment on these boards that slipped past the censors it would (rightly) be shot down and annihilated by almost every other poster here and others can reasonably be sensitive about situations that affect them. So some thicker skins may be needed but greater respect should be required as well on EVERYONES part and maybe that way we can laugh through simple enjoyment. Jokes don't have to sting to be funny and can be respectful and still get a laugh. Think Chaav from BOED rather than Olidammara.
hmm, been a member of these boards for a while; been reading em a bit longer and I dont see any problems. Sure, things get a bit charged; heeh look at the guy just said looking for dm advice. I dont take it personally, but then I know I have thicker skin than most peeps I know and tend to give a hand out that might hurt some people that I dont see any issue with until someone points it out so thick skin goes also to bit thick headed, lol. I would expect a word like retard on the untitled thread as that is all fun and mockery; hehe have you ever hung out with rednecks?, but in most conversation it is probably is inappropriate as most malicious name calling is basically an attempt at character assassination.
Can't really say I have read much of it in this messageboard and can't say I remember any flame wars or such though their are a few words and phrases to avoid like misspelling rogue hehe (doesn't bother me), avoiding munchkin, anything like "Logic dictates..." (this really bugs me). I kinda wish that some peeps would clean up their language, but that is like asking people to clean up their grammar; its their venacular and their gonna use it cause that is the tools they have so it is just and idle wish on my part. I am mostly talking about using a curse word first letter followed by a bunch of symbols in a discussion; in roleplay; no problem.
hehe i think if you cant laugh at yourself you have a big problem.
personally, I love the zombie dead talk :)
Fakey, I am simply shocked by your post on Nov 22nd at 11:55 (EST)! You wrote, "I'm sure that their are people who disagree (their always are)...". How *could* you? Don't you know the difference between their and there? Or are you simply callous to the ramifications of improper usage?
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Fakey, I am simply shocked by your post on Nov 22nd at 11:55 (EST)! You wrote, "I'm sure that their are people who disagree (their always are)...". How *could* you? Don't you know the difference between their and there? Or are you simply callous to the ramifications of improper usage?
I've done this before as well. I'm sure it was not a lack of cognitive function but a simple lack of proofreading that betrayed him.
However, since posts cannot be deleted after they've been around awhile, his folly will be immortalized here for all to witness. ;)
Was there something in particular that made you feel like this community needed a lesson and if so, what?
just curious, I thought we were doing pretty well....FH
It's something that i promised i'd do on another thread but it was a digression from that topic...that's all.
As ever,
ACE
OK..... so what happened on that thread to make you create this one? I'm inclined to believe someone must have made a very serious oopsie to merit a public service announcement.
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Fakey, I am simply shocked by your post on Nov 22nd at 11:55 (EST)! You wrote, "I'm sure that their are people who disagree (their always are)...". How *could* you? Don't you know the difference between their and there? Or are you simply callous to the ramifications of improper usage?
Yeah, that's right! Pile on him!
Cry havoc, and unleash the hounds of war!It's okay when the Spelling Police misspell. Just more proof that power corrupts. And fakey Disneyfies Huey Long by comparison.
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Fakey, I am simply shocked by your post on Nov 22nd at 11:55 (EST)! You wrote, "I'm sure that their are people who disagree (their always are)...". How *could* you? Don't you know the difference between their and there? Or are you simply callous to the ramifications of improper usage?Yeah, that's right! Pile on him!
Cry havoc, and unleash the hounds of war!
It's okay when the Spelling Police misspell. Just more proof that power corrupts. And fakey Disneyfies Huey Long by comparison.
Good job guys! I was wondering if anyone would find my...ummm...test, yeah, test! Great job, Falsies! You passed this little er, test.
FH (rebel without ummm....something)
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Fakey, I am simply shocked by your post on Nov 22nd at 11:55 (EST)! You wrote, "I'm sure that their are people who disagree (their always are)...". How *could* you? Don't you know the difference between their and there? Or are you simply callous to the ramifications of improper usage?Yeah, that's right! Pile on him!
Cry havoc, and unleash the hounds of war!
It's okay when the Spelling Police misspell. Just more proof that power corrupts. And fakey Disneyfies Huey Long by comparison.Good job guys! I was wondering if anyone would find my...ummm...test, yeah, test! Great job, Falsies! You passed this little er, test.
FH (rebel without ummm....something)
Oh, you lie like a rug.
Oh, you lie like a rug.
As a rug advocate I am extremely offended. You people (yes, you people) always equate our horizontal friends with dishonesty. Where did this radical and unfair characterization come from? Is it not enough that we stand on rugs at our leisure while they work to tie the room together? And not all rugs "lie", I might add. Tapestries hang and they are in the rug family. As a member of the Rug and Tapestry Alliance Against Defamation, it is my duty to point out the inherent humility and honesty of rugs and tapestries because they are incapable of defending themselves against such libelous slander.
It is also my duty to boycott movies such as "The Big Lebowski" in which a rug is...micturated upon... ON FILM (!) and the guilty party is neither punished nor truly reprimanded. And besides, that rug really tied the room together.
Heathansson, I take umbrage at your comments and I hope you hear and understand my feelings and take the appropriate actions by joining one of our rug and tapestry understanding courses available at the Community Center.
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Director of Narrative
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OK..... so what happened on that thread to make you create this one? I'm inclined to believe someone must have made a very serious oopsie to merit a public service announcement.
It was a thread posted by a new poster, Ulark where he popped into the untitled thread with a general, and quite a bit unclear, question about what version of the game these boards discuss.
ACE's intent was to give a quick lesson on the do's and don't of message board posting. It had less to do with name calling and more to do with clarity and tact.
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OK..... so what happened on that thread to make you create this one? I'm inclined to believe someone must have made a very serious oopsie to merit a public service announcement.
It was a thread posted by a new poster, Ulark where he popped into the untitled thread with a general, and quite a bit unclear, question about what version of the game these boards discuss.
ACE's intent was to give a quick lesson on the do's and don't of message board posting. It had less to do with name calling and more to do with clarity and tact.
Yeah, and I for one can see a 5.76387% improvement up to now.
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Oh, you lie like a rug.As a rug advocate I am extremely offended. You people (yes, you people) always equate our horizontal friends with dishonesty. Where did this radical and unfair characterization come from? Is it not enough that we stand on rugs at our leisure while they work to tie the room together? And not all rugs "lie", I might add. Tapestries hang and they are in the rug family. As a member of the Rug and Tapestry Alliance Against Defamation, it is my duty to point out the inherent humility and honesty of rugs and tapestries because they are incapable of defending themselves against such libelous slander.
It is also my duty to boycott movies such as "The Big Lebowski" in which a rug is...micturated upon... ON FILM (!) and the guilty party is neither punished nor truly reprimanded. And besides, that rug really tied the room together.
Heathansson, I take umbrage at your comments and I hope you hear and understand my feelings and take the appropriate actions by joining one of our rug and tapestry understanding courses available at the Community Center.
Holy jumping coffee beans! I nearly peed myself laughing at this one. And have you ever seen a zombie pee himself? It ain't a pretty sight!
Zombies can do that?
Woops! I mean,
Holy jumping coffee beans! I nearly peed myself laughing at this one. And have you ever seen a zombie pee himself? It ain't a pretty sight!Oh, you lie like a rug.As a rug advocate I am extremely offended. You people (yes, you people) always equate our horizontal friends with dishonesty. Where did this radical and unfair characterization come from? Is it not enough that we stand on rugs at our leisure while they work to tie the room together? And not all rugs "lie", I might add. Tapestries hang and they are in the rug family. As a member of the Rug and Tapestry Alliance Against Defamation, it is my duty to point out the inherent humility and honesty of rugs and tapestries because they are incapable of defending themselves against such libelous slander.
It is also my duty to boycott movies such as "The Big Lebowski" in which a rug is...micturated upon... ON FILM (!) and the guilty party is neither punished nor truly reprimanded. And besides, that rug really tied the room together.
Heathansson, I take umbrage at your comments and I hope you hear and understand my feelings and take the appropriate actions by joining one of our rug and tapestry understanding courses available at the Community Center.
Zombies can do that?
(Now does everyone know who I was responding to? I know it was so opaque the first time.)
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Not really, but I was just going for a disturbing image.
Holy jumping coffee beans! I nearly peed myself laughing at this one. And have you ever seen a zombie pee himself? It ain't a pretty sight!Zombies can do that?
Thanks Aberzombie ... that will leave a mark! Your image of the zombie will stick!
It was a thread posted by a new poster, Ulark where he popped into the untitled thread with a general, and quite a bit unclear, question about what version of the game these boards discuss.ACE's intent was to give a quick lesson on the do's and don't of message board posting. It had less to do with name calling and more to do with clarity and tact.
Mmmm...Daigle has the gist of it. I don't care to name call and try to avoid using the particulars of an individual post or poster to digress about general topics of interest. Of course, there is typically an impitus for creating a new thread to make a point, and i suppose that to trace back to that point is doable, but I'd much prefer to think of such kernels as inspiration and opportunity...nothing else.
As ever,
ACE
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Director of Narrative
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It was a thread posted by a new poster, Ulark where he popped into the untitled thread with a general, and quite a bit unclear, question about what version of the game these boards discuss.ACE's intent was to give a quick lesson on the do's and don't of message board posting. It had less to do with name calling and more to do with clarity and tact.
Mmmm...Daigle has the gist of it. I don't care to name call and try to avoid using the particulars of an individual post or poster to digress about general topics of interest. Of course, there is typically an impitus for creating a new thread to make a point, and i suppose that to trace back to that point is doable, but I'd much prefer to think of such kernels as inspiration and opportunity...nothing else.
As ever,
ACE
Yeah, I debated whether to be that specific, but Sexi asked where this all started and even though I don't know how to post a link to your exact post, I felt that that would be a bit more of a beacon, and lead to this result anyway.
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Yeah, I debated whether to be that specific, but Sexi asked where this all started and even though I don't know how to post a link to your exact post, I felt that that would be a bit more of a beacon, and lead to this result anyway.
It was a thread posted by a new poster, Ulark where he popped into the untitled thread with a general, and quite a bit unclear, question about what version of the game these boards discuss.ACE's intent was to give a quick lesson on the do's and don't of message board posting. It had less to do with name calling and more to do with clarity and tact.
Mmmm...Daigle has the gist of it. I don't care to name call and try to avoid using the particulars of an individual post or poster to digress about general topics of interest. Of course, there is typically an impitus for creating a new thread to make a point, and i suppose that to trace back to that point is doable, but I'd much prefer to think of such kernels as inspiration and opportunity...nothing else.
As ever,
ACE
So....nobody did anything offensive? Wow, I feel very intellectually and logically challenged (that IS the P.C.,un-offensive way of saying "moronic and idiotic", right?).
See Heathy, no worries! You can relax there in Texas and try to figure out whether you fit in the "steers" category or the...... oh, wait.....ummm. Nevermind. Nothing to see here.FH (yust yoking)