Arcanist and Spell loss upon death


Rules Questions


Okay, what does an Arcanist lose when he dies with respect to his prepared spells and spell slots.

Death and Prepared Spell Retention (Arcane casters)
If a spellcaster dies, all prepared spells stored in his mind are wiped away. Potent magic (such as raise dead, resurrection, or true resurrection) can recover the lost energy when it recovers the character.

Nothing is listed for Divine spellcasters so I assume they retain the spells.

Raise Dead

I assume the following happens to these classes if resurrected by Breath of Life
1. Wizards = loses all spells
2. Sorcerers = loses all spell slots (from the reference of Raise Dead)
3. Divine casters = retains all spells

Raise dead
1. Wizards = 50% chance of losing each prepared spells
2. Sorcerers = 50% chance of losing each spell slot
3. Divine casters = retains all spells

So, big question. What happens to Arcanists? Do they lose their prepared spells AND their spell slots upon death?


basically it falls into the GMs lap.
He reads the spell in question then does the appropriate thing.
In my experience GMs did not erase spells when Breath of Life was used. I assume it is due to the timeliness of the return to life and that the spell does not touch on the subject directly.


Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences. The relevant ability for most divine spells is Wisdom (Charisma for paladins). To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score (or Charisma score for paladins) of 10 + the spell's level. Likewise, bonus spells are based on Wisdom.

The above sections states that Divine spell caster prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do. That means by default the divine prepared caster follows the same rules as a wizard. Any changes to how their spells work have to be specified or they are still subject to the same rules as the wizard.

Raise Dead specifies if you prepare spells (which an Anrcanist does) you have a 50% chance of losing the prepared spell. It does not directly specify that spontaneous lose spell slots. What it does specify is that if you do not prepare spells, you have a 50% chance of losing a spell slot.

The rules in Raise Dead only apply to Raise Dead and spell that act like it. Breath of Life does not reference Raise Dead in any way. So, a wizard brought back with Breath of Life loses all spell slots, a sorcerer loses nothing. A cleric loses all spell slot, but an oracle does not lose anything. With Raise Dead the wizard and cleric have a 50% chance to lose each prepared spell, the sorcerer and oracle has a 50% chance of losing each slot. The Arcanist is treated like a wizard for this.


Mysterious Stranger wrote:

Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences. The relevant ability for most divine spells is Wisdom (Charisma for paladins). To prepare a divine spell, a character must have a Wisdom score (or Charisma score for paladins) of 10 + the spell's level. Likewise, bonus spells are based on Wisdom.

The above sections states that Divine spell caster prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do. That means by default the divine prepared caster follows the same rules as a wizard. Any changes to how their spells work have to be specified or they are still subject to the same rules as the wizard.

The reference to losing prepared spells is under the Arcane Spells section. There is no mention under the Divine spells section upon death and loss of spells.

I guess I shouldn't assume that using Breath of Life causes a loss of spontaneous spell slots, but I find it weird that Raise dead makes them lose 50% of them.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The Arcanist is treated like a wizard for this.

So you are categorizing an Arcanist as a wizard so it would lose all prepared spells but None of their spell slots? What conclusion do you have to determine this outcome.


I would go with they lose both, to counter the fact that they basically get the best of both worlds.

First you roll to see which spells known they forgot and cannot cast at all for the rest of the day, then you roll to also remove their remaining number of casts per day.

So an arcanist with 5 remaining third spell slots and lightning bolt, fireball, haste, and slow dies and is raise dead'd. He can now only cast fireball and haste with his remaining 3 slots.


For Arcanist, since it is not one of the core classes, and I guess core rulebook didn't expect to handle such cases, so this might need the discretion of GM.


The section I posted states “Divine spellcasters prepare their spells in largely the same manner as wizards do, but with a few differences.” That means they follow the rules for arcane prepared casters unless something specifies otherwise. Since there is nothing specifying they do not lose spells when they are dead they do. This is kind of a grey area, but that is my reasoning for how I would do it.

Raise Dead:
A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell.

The bolded section on raise dead does not say that spontaneous casters have a chance of losing the spell slot. What it says is that casters that do not prepare spells have a chance to lose spell slots. The Arcanist does actually prepare spells, so the line about casters that do not prepare spells does not apply to them. Until the Arcanist came out there was no spontaneous caster that prepared spells, so it applied to all spontaneous casters until that point. This is the one instance where Paizo actually wrote the rules incredibly well. A GM may decide that Arcanists have a chance of losing spells slots, but RAW that is not how it work.

Raise dead works the way it does because the spell description says it works that way. It is a clear case of the specific overruling the general. If a GM wants to alter how being dead affects spells that is their right as a GM, but at that point it is a house rule.


Preparing Wizard Spells - Death and Prepared Spell Retention, CRB
Preparing Divine Spells, CRB
Injury & Death - Dead, CRB
Death of a Hero, GM Gd advises GMs to consider the bigger picture.

> Reincarnate:T4 & Cyclic Reincarnate, Reincarnate Spy
> Raise Dead:C5
> Breath of Life:C5
> Invigorating Repose:C5
> Inspiring Recovery:C6
> Resurrection:C7
> Miracle & Wish...


Good catch @Mysterious, though I would say that the wording avoiding the explicit use of "spontaneous" was to avoid someone saying "well Cleric does have spontaneous casting, even in a limited way, so they should be doubly penalized, or at the very least lose their unprepared spell slots as an "unused spell slot".

Actually, now I want to attach a rider question, "Should a prepared caster who reserved spell slots who died and was raise deaded also be losing half of their unprepared slots?" The wording on the text "lose any given spell" doesn't necessarily mean prepared spells only, though I can see how it would be interpreted that way and probably agree with it. Though I can also see the counter that "prepared casters are the better option, of course they weren't also meant to get the better end of the stick here".


I am assuming you are referring to leaving the spell slot open when you are talking about reserving a spell slot.

Prepared casters don’t lose slots, they lose spells. If there is no spell prepared in the slot there is nothing to lose. Only “casters that do not prepare spells” lose slots. The Spell is obviously referring to spells prepared. Wizard's spells are stored in their spell book and having a spell disappear from a book when the character is raised from the dead makes no sense. Clerics know all spells on their list and having one disappear from their spell list makes even less sense.


Yonman wrote:
So, big question. What happens to Arcanists? Do they lose their prepared spells AND their spell slots upon death?

Correct.


Arcanist gets the best of both worlds sometimes, but also the worst of both worlds sometimes. For instance they don’t have a great pearls of power option. And other random feats and abilities just don’t do anything for them.

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