darth_borehd's Untitled Campaign

Game Master darth_borehd

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Yes, There will be random maps (About 6). One will be completely flat like a Roman arena. One will be a maze filled with traps. One will have islands in a arena filled with water. I'm working on the others. In all of them, you start some distance away. I'm thinking somewhere between 30' and 100' depending on the map.

If we don't get more people by 11:59 pm PST on the 7th, then you I'll start allowing secondary characters.

Yes, casters start with all their spells prepared. Keep in mind this tournament will take place during a single day, so you won't be able to recover spells.

I'll try a Paladin out. 'Cos why not? Tempted to go Anti-Paladin, because how often can you make one of those, but for this I reckon a regular one will work better.

Yes, casters start with all their spells prepared. Keep in mind this tournament will take place during a single day, so you won't be able to recover spells.

Whoa, how is that going to work? We gain levels between fights but it's all on the same day so we don't refresh daily abilities?

I second Wolf's concern. How is a caster gonna work than?

I second Wolf's concern. How is a caster gonna work than?

I third that concern. That puts spellcasters, bards (daily music), barbarians (rage), and anyone else with "uses per day" at a HUGE disadvantage.

And what would be the point of doing it all in one day? Wouldn't you want a true representation of what a character could do, otherwise, it starts boiling down to "who got lucky" and didn't have to use as much resources.

Also, not refreshing spells/abilities between fights puts a HUGE advantage towards ranged attackers. "I'll just keep taking a movement action backwards, then a standard to fire. If he gets too close, use the feat Run a few rounds to get far enough away that I can fire a few times and done."

OK< i hear what you are saying. But allowing all spells to be replenished between duels gives casters a huge advantage.

One of the disadvantages of playing casters is that they eventually run out of spells, right?

Except the game is designed to have three encounters of your CR per rest, not as many encounters of your CR +3 until you die.
What's the point of playing a caster if you don't get spells? If I make muscle wizard and beat everyone to death by casting fist on them, what would be my casting capacity at level 20, whatever spells left from character creation?

So. . . are you saying people should get a refresh every 3 duels?

If casters don't get spells replenished after every fight, then I am out because I feel there would be a HUGE HUGE HUGE advantage for non-casters. A fighter would get to go forever becasue they don't have to replenish anything. Sword+bash=win.

A fighter has high HP, plus high AC plus power attack that can be used over and over, and vital strike over and over, etc.

If I go wizard, I have low HP, and a low AC adn the only thing that can help me is spells. I could have at most 3 1st level spells at 1st level. 3 spells So once I cast those three spells, I am done FOR GOOD, because I don't replenish or replenish after every 3rd fight.

I am not upset, I guess I just didn't understand that caster would be at such a HUGE DISADVANTAGE is all.

A fighter makes a save-or-suck, they win due to being usually right next to the caster.

sorry but i am out

If casters don't get new spells, then I assume damage taken will carry over for everyone from round to round?

Casters are already at a disadvantage without losing spells each round as this tournament really only runs to a maximum of level 5. Casters begin to 'catch up' to a lot of martial classes only once they get access to level 3 spells, and really only begin to surpass them starting with level 4 spells. Up until then, two-handed melee and archers reign supreme.

Here's the amended plan for tournament:

Every 3rd duel is the end of a "day" and you are both leveled up three levels and restored to full hit points before the 4th duel. Consumable items and ammunition are still gone. You may buy what you want as listed in UE (no custom items*) with standard WBL.

Is this fair to both martial types and casters?

Say we have a level 4 character.
What is level of a party of four characters he has equivalent power to?

For characters, the CR is one less than the total class levels.

I am still out, I view martial classes as still superior to casters. Caster are going to be out of spells after 1 duel, while martial classes can go bonkers all day long.

I wish you the best during the tourney to all involved.

Sorry, to hear that Gilthanis. I was hoping to come to some kind of agreement.

I have to agree with Gilthanis. I am out as well. Not being able to refresh spells is too much of a disadvantage. A fighter class doesn't lose his weapon, he can keep swinging as much as he wants. Spellcasters are already restricted on the number of spells he/she has per day.

I think darth_borehd is overestimating the power of level 1 spells just slightly is all. A few extra casts of grease or magic missile are not exactly breaking the game, haha.

As a caster, if you do not beat the initiative of an archer or 2-handed fighter and somehow down them in that turn, you are 100% dead every time. This is regardless of number of spells. You do not even have time to 'buff up' with something like mage armor, so you're sitting at approximately (ballpark numbers here) 8 health, AC 13-14. A martial that can't deal with that in a single round should have to return their sword/bow and retire out of shame.

Since we're going with silly stereotypes, the wizard will win more than you think (he casts charm person and asks his friend to borrow his weapon so that he can learn how to fight with it, or something similar). It really just depends on what type of character you build. For example, my bard is looking at about a 19 ac. That means that most power attack fighters miss me (even assuming 4 for strength and somehow having a mw weapon, that only gets you to +5 (+6 with wf), which means that you hit less than a 3rd of the time before power attacking.)

It really, really depends on the way that both characters are built. Making gross assumptions on facts not based in evidence is a poor plan.

Are we talking about wizards or bards? Bards cast spells, but they are not casters in that their HD is higher and they can wear armor.

Charm Person has so much table variance with GMs that it becomes completely unreliable, and on top of that - even if it does work how you want it to - you are betting your entire livelihood on whatever or not your target fails their will DC. Also, still completely depends on going first.

Instead of dismissing what I wrote out of hand by mentioning 'gross assumptions', why don't you show me how I am erring with a wizard/sorcerer/arcanist build that doesn't 100% depend on going first to survive, given this tournament's restrictions.

OP: since recruitment is low, I would also like to put my name in to play a Skald in addition to the Arcanist.

So what is the most fair way to both casters and martial types?

4 vs 4, full heal, including HP, spells, ability damage, after each fight. This is how it is supposed to work according to the rules.

Instead of dismissing what I wrote out of hand by mentioning 'gross assumptions', why don't you show me how I am erring with a wizard/sorcerer/arcanist build that doesn't 100% depend on going first to survive, given this tournament's restrictions.

Sure thing:

Human Wizard 1

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 10

HP 10
AC 23 (6 armor, 4 shield, 2 dex, 1 dodge), Touch 13, FF 20
BAB 0 CMB +2/0 CMD 15
Init +4
Fort +2
Ref +2
Will +2

Skills:
Knowledge (Arcana, Dungeoneering, Planes, Religion, Nature) r1 +7
Spellcraft r1 +7

Feats:
Stilled Spell, dodge

Traits:
Magical Lineage (Magic Missile)
Reactionary

Class Features:
School Specialization: Evocation
Intense Spells: +1
Force Missile: 1d4+1

Gear (assuming 150 gp): Tower Shield 30 gp, Four-Mirror Armor 45 gp, spell component pouch (5 gp), Potion of Cure Light Wounds 50 gp, Spiked Gauntlet 5gp, 15 gp remaining.

Spells Known:
0: all
1: Magic Missile, Wave Shield, Liberating Command, Heightened Awareness, Feather Fall, Endure Elements

Spells/day:
0: Acid Splash, Ray of Frost, Detect Magic, Read Magic
1: Stilled Magic Missile _ _ _

Average damage/Magic Missile: 2.5 x3=7.5 + ((1d4+1=3.5 average)6)= 9 rounds of damage generation/day. Automatic hit means that I deal 28.5 damage over those nine rounds.

Meanwhile, team raging barbarian with a 24 strength and power attack has a +7 to hit, meaning that he need an 16 to hit me. Like I said, it's not hard to build a wizard that doesn't fear a fighter or an archer. That's why you can't make generalizations about classes.

4 vs 4, full heal, including HP, spells, ability damage, after each fight. This is how it is supposed to work according to the rules.

Actually, according to the rules, you would heal 1 point of ability damage after resting. Should you take 3-4 points of said damage (certainly possible), then you would be carrying that damage over for an equal number of days. You also only heal your level in HP after a night's rest (in this case 1).

You have a weird wizard there. I'd be curious how the wizard would do in practice. A few quick hits:

1) He is pretty much guaranteed to go second, if the non-proficient ACP penalty applies to initiative.
2) That same ACP penalty would mean AOO from you is not very scary. So a lot of manuevers come into play even without a feat supporting it.
3) Bull rush is the one I would be most scared of, because it's against my STR check. If there are environmental hazards I can get pushed into, I can't expect to succeed climb, swim and acrobatics checks.
4) Not sure how bad trip would be. With a 15 CMD I have some chance not to fall. If I fall, I'd be prone, and trying to stand up means I take a hit with a -4 to the AC. But, I can just cast defensively while prone, and I think that's without penalty since I would have Still Spell.

It's worth noting the barbarian at level 1 with 24 str probably doesn't have to rely on power attack, with +10 to damage from str alone on a two handed weapon.

Still, your wizard is very interesting to me. At level 1, getting AC up is a big bonus, and your build shows that it's possible, if one's willing to accept some situational problems (and going second).

Edited to add: LOL, your worst enemy would be a normal wizard with shield and grease spells. That would lock you in place pretty much. He would just need a way to finish you after the setup.

Wouldn't the armor and shield give that wizard an 80% spell failure rate? Am I missing something?

For characters, the CR is one less than the total class levels.

Actually, given the wealth of a player character, the CR is equal to the character level. Only NPCs have level-1 as they have less gear

Anyway, there's a spot? I'd really like to play a Brawler

Wouldn't the armor and shield give that wizard an 80% spell failure rate? Am I missing something?

Those would be stilled magic missiles, without a somatic component (still level 1 because of magic lineage).

Missed that. Sorry.

darth_borehd wrote:

For characters, the CR is one less than the total class levels.

Actually, given the wealth of a player character, the CR is equal to the character level. Only NPCs have level-1 as they have less gear

Anyway, there's a spot? I'd really like to play a Brawler

I stand corrected on that.

You got it.

1) I mean, its an interesting build, but pinging for 3-6 damage a round and (probably) going second is going to be in a bad place against anyone with an attack that targets touch AC.

VinGoodman: this is the build's actual worst enemy (Anything with a gun, or an arcane caster with CL boosts on Snowball).

2) Power Attack makes no sense to use against a level 1 wizard (really any level 1 to be honest) with 6-10 health; what's important is hitting. With a 3/10 chance to die each attack received, are stilled CL1 magic missiles really the way to go?

3) I think with an Arcanist with Potent Spell (+2 CL), this gets a bit more realistic. At least then you are throwing 2d4+2 damage each round albeit only three times per day. You can't be playing a long game with a build like this against someone with decent health and a weapon, because you will lose that way every time.

TL;DR: This build gimps itself against other classes in its goal to prove me wrong and put high AC on a wizard, but still fails at its original objective of not fearing archers or fighters because it has an auto-hitting wet noodle on offense and no means of escape from combat. I appreciate your effort, and you did succeed in creating a character that does (probably) survive round one, but all you have done is reaffirm my convictions.

hey now, I was asked to build a character that "why don't you show me how I am erring with a wizard/sorcerer/arcanist build that doesn't 100% depend on going first to survive". I built one. I could certainly build a character that could deal with touch attack issues, but at first level it's hard to build a character who is strong against everything.

Throwing in for an anti paladin

Throwing in for an anti paladin

You got it!

As a primarily martial type, what is your opinion on when casters should recover spells?

A compromise could be in order, such as full casters recover after every battle, while reduced casters (Magus, paladin, ranger etc) recover every other. To stop this from becoming to OP in late game, you could moderate the regained spells, via dice roll or Casting stat, IE a full caster could recover maybe like casting stat x 2 spell slots so a wizard with 20(+5) INT could recover 10 spell slots so a LVL 9 and a LVL 1 spell or 5 LVL 2s or a 2,3,5 etc.

At early levels the casters can regain all the slots without this being too much an advantage, but later on they should refill spell slots less and less frequently, like adding one battle for every spell level.

After all one counterbalance to the power of the spells is that they are on a finite quantity for the duration of a day in which the combats are more than one, and planning which spell prepare and/or use is a huge part of the caster mechanic.

Actually having the spell level you have access to determine when your spells refresh sounds like it could work.
So when you get lvl 2 spells you have to do 2 fights before spells refresh.

Actually having the spell level you have access to determine when your spells refresh sounds like it could work.

So when you get lvl 2 spells you have to do 2 fights before spells refresh.

Obviously this should be refined in order to apply tho more classes. Lesser casters like bards and magi compensate their inferior spell quantity with class features and martial/skill capability, so they should incur in the same limitation of full casters.

Also, thera are other limited daily resources on which classes rely on: Grit for Gunslingers, Ki for Monks and Ninjas, rounds of Rage for Barbarians, Smite and LoH for Paladins and so one. They too should refill less and less frequently outside their inherent mechanics (i.e. is for example a Gunslinger regains gring as usual when he crits or kills, but the regain equivalent to a full rest should happen less frequently as level increase.

I'd say in the end that every character regains inherent resources like a full rest after every battle at level 1, while the number of battles after which it happens increases by 1 every two levels after the 1st. That is after every battle at 1 and 2, after every 2 at 3 and 4 and so on.

1vs1 pvp between characters of equal level is CR+3 encounter for them. CR+3 encounter should be the only encounter in a given day.

1vs1 pvp between characters of equal level is CR+3 encounter for them. CR+3 encounter should be the only encounter in a given day.

I think you are saying that one duel should see characters use 100% of their resources?

What does everybody think of that?

I'm not saying it's good or necessary, but it's how the game is designed.
Given I've already pointed that out three times and I'm not participating, I should probably stop posting in this thread.

You have convinced me Nyaa, that one duel is enough for a whole day. Is this agreeable to everyone?

Yes!

sure. How did we want to post our characters?

I understand people would like to keep their character sheet private. Is this correct?

If so, use the same format as the NPC codex and send them to me in a private message.

I am thinking about having people advance two levels each duel with the final duel going to level 20.

Vrog Skyreaver has submitted his bard and it has been accepted.

I'd like to dot for cleric if it's not already taken.

You got it, NarcoticSqurl!

Dotting for samurai, I'll get one made in a minute. Name: Lin Wu

Here he is