cognitive dissonance (Inactive)

Game Master icehawk333

Objection!

That's a rat.

That's what the link is for.

... You know what's amazing?

Castell already has 92 posts.

Marek is at 145.

Since Tuesday, we have posted in this thread 754 times.

Just... Wow.

I think illusion magic can get more than average use in a party like this.

I'm pretty sure if it's smaller than a helmet, the tavi can probably steal it.

Disguise Self and Alter Self are both on the alchemist and bard spell lists.

Since Tuesday, we have posted in this thread 754 times.

Just... Wow.

Uhhh, yay productivity?

I think illusion magic can get more than average use in a party like this.

I'm pretty sure if it's smaller than a helmet, the tavi can probably steal it.

Disguise Self and Alter Self are both on the alchemist and bard spell lists.

But, stealing is bad. And yeah, Alter/disguise self are looking pretty mandatory at some point. Although, I think Hats of Disguise would work better for you guys. You don't have the spell, and can appear as a different type of humanoid (like a human!). If we can't find enough it looks like it's time to learn about the joys of sharing.

EDIT: Also, a yea or nay on the dex bump? I'll also be content with a Cha bump as well.

icehawk333 wrote:

Since Tuesday, we have posted in this thread 754 times.

Just... Wow.

Uhhh, yay productivity?

Heck yes!

I'm not used to a game acutslly moving quickly.

It's great.

I'll think on the dex/Cha buff, Castell.

Anyway, I'll be gone for a lot of tomorrow.

I'm apparently getting drug off on some trip to my grandmother's firend house, a multiple hour drive there, then back.

Plus however long she wants to stay there.

I'll think on the dex/Cha buff, Castell.

You got it. I'll update the rest now then.

In the vein of building new things here and openly, this is the first draft of the feat chain for him to be more paragon-y.

Since it is adds CR+4, I thought it fit to do it in four feats.

The Stat bonuses are cumulative and are made to be equal to or less than the difference between the Paragon and the base troggy in the end.

I think it would be cool to flavor the spell likes, at least charm monster, Dom monster, hypnotism, and Cause Fear as a manipulation of phermones, like the Troggy's aura.

Hope you all like it. :)

In the vein of building new things here and openly, this is the first draft of the feat chain for him to be more paragon-y.

Since it is adds CR+4, I thought it fit to do it in four feats.

The Stat bonuses are cumulative and are made to be equal to or less than the difference between the Paragon and the base troggy in the end.

I think it would be cool to flavor the spell likes, at least charm monster, Dom monster, hypnotism, and Cause Fear as a manipulation of phermones, like the Troggy's aura.

** spoiler omitted **

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Hope you all like it. :)

It's quite powerul.

To say the least.

We can space it out into more feats maybe?

I thought I did fairly well at making them stepwise.

It'd normally get another +2 str and +2 cha.

Some of the spell likes he wouldn't use anyways.

We can cut the Int and Cha boosts if that nerfs it to your liking.

see, the thing is-

Weapon foucs (+1 to hit with one kind of weapon)

+2 str, on it's own, is better then this.
Then +2 natural armor, int, and spell-like ablities.

With one feat.

I feel like the main draw of weapon focus is to qualify for the bevy if feats that require it.

HOWEVER...

On the other hand, leasership is allowed.

I'm gonna have to think on those feats, magic.

Fair enough. I'm open for changing things.

I should sleep now. I don't do that as much as I should.

I feel like the main draw of weapon focus is to qualify for the bevy if feats that require it.

Then compare it to any other combat feat.

Is there any combat feat in the game that lesser paragon growth is worse then?

(One- power attack, on some builds.)

Fair enough. I'm open for changing things.

I should sleep now. I don't do that as much as I should.

Me too.

Who wouldn't take that?

That's easily way more powerful than the Orc bloodline and drow racial feats combined, and those would take 5 feats for the Orc side, and 4-5 for the drow side.

Maybe if you added prerequisites to limit its levels to 15 and up, but even then it's still grossly overpowered.

Who wouldn't take that?

That's easily way more powerful than the Orc bloodline and drow racial feats combined, and those would take 5 feats for the Orc side, and 4-5 for the drow side.

Maybe if you added prerequisites to limit its levels to 15 and up, but even then it's still grossly overpowered.

I'm not going to allow it as is, thst's for certain.

When I said think on those fests, I moreso meant think how to change them.

I've got something of an idea, but I'm not sure it's worth the time to stat out.
(Consuming weath in addition to burning a feat- giving up a large portion of chsrecter weath to take the feats)

I hate to say it, but I really think it's just gonna not happen.

A fix would be too complex, and it gives so much that allowing it in it's current state would be out of the question.

Your best bet is to wait until polyorph any object comes online and breaks the game.

How many zombies can we assume attempt swings at us? I'd like to acrobatics around as many as I can

How many zombies can we assume attempt swings at us? I'd like to acrobatics around as many as I can

Unspecified.

descibe it how you like.

Yeah, I've decided.

No trog paragon feats.

I don't liek saying no to a concept, but it's such a hard one to do wihout blance issues it's just not worth it.

EDIT: Have I mentioned I love characters like Fray?

:D I was worried I was gonna upset people. I usually play the NG character or the paladin so this is a fun change.

Anyway, I'll be gone for a lot of tomorrow.

I'm apparently getting drug off on some trip to my grandmother's firend house, a multiple hour drive there, then back.

Plus however long she wants to stay there.

Turns out this is tomorrow.

What if we take out stat boosts completely, make it three feats with just spell likes, improved damage and large size at the end.

Castell Danza wrote:

EDIT: Have I mentioned I love characters like Fray?

:D I was worried I was gonna upset people. I usually play the NG character or the paladin so this is a fun change.

I actually have a Wizard in a group I'm GMing at a home game who's a lot like that. We've described it as "believing his own hype." Weirdly, I like him more than the Paladin.

EDIT: Uh, Chris you might want to, um, bail.

It's still crazy good, giving early charm mosnter and constant arcane sight.

Magical tail grants a spell of the same level... At the SEVENTH time you take the feat.

We could do it in four.

5 Hypnotism and Speak with Reptiles at will. One is useless very soon and the other is a lesser version of a spell he already has.

7 Cause Fear and Charm Monster 3/day. This isn't early access. Bards and Summoners get Charm Monster at this level. We can balance it more by saying it's a total of 3/day for either of them.

9 Large Size and improved damage. This one goes here to put Arcane Sight at a higher level

11 Arcane sight. This would be lvl 11. This is the caster level for Permanent Arcane Sight.

We could do it in four.

5 Hypnotism and Speak with Reptiles at will. One is useless very soon and the other is a lesser version of a spell he already has.

7 Cause Fear and Charm Monster 3/day. This isn't early access. Bards and Summoners get Charm Monster at this level. We can balance it more by saying it's a total of 3/day for either of them.

9 Large Size and improved damage. This one goes here to put Arcane Sight at a higher level

11 Arcane sight. This would be lvl 11. This is the caster level for Permanent Arcane Sight.

Permananent spells aren't the bast gauge, as they can be dispelled.

But this seems...
Like it might be ok, assuming the feats are locked until that level.

Ask the other players.

I'm ok with people playing just about anything, as long as all the other players are fine with it.

I'm designing a prestige class that may work well.

To be posted later; I can only work on it for a few minutes at a time while at work.

I'm designing a prestige class that may work well.

To be posted later; I can only work on it for a few minutes at a time while at work.

Well color me interested. I have to say I was in the camp that the featline was too powerful, mostly because they would be coming in as well as Class features, and the feats themselves are as strong as, if not stronger than the abilities most classes get. Using a prestige class to grant abilities could alleviate that quite a bit. Just please, include the ability to turn off the funk for our sake.

EDIT: Apparently, Icehawk isn't the only one who has trouble englishing.

Well, it is a troglodyte paragon. I was thinking of making it more powerful. >:)

If you're going to do that, I should say that I've never multiclassed or used a prestige class ever in my life... At least not in a normal campaign. I like capstone abilities too much.

If you're going to do that, I should say that I've never multiclassed or used a prestige class ever in my life... At least not in a normal campaign. I like capstone abilities too much.

Protip-

Campaigns never get to 20th level.

I'd imagine the class would be kinda like dragon Deciple, really.

Ok, here we go. Let me know what you all think.

Troglodyte Paragon

Prerequisites:
Troglodyte race
Ability to cast 2nd level spells
4 ranks in stealth and intimidate

HD: d8

Class Skills: Intimidate, Perception, Stealth

Skills: 2+Int mod per level.

BAB progression:
1: +0
2: +1
3: +2
4: +3
5: +3

Save progression:
1: 1F, 0R, 1W
2: 1F, 1R, 1W
3: 2F, 1R, 2W
4: 2F, 1R, 2W
5: 3F, 2R, 3W

Special abilities:

Spell Progression: At levels 2,3, and 4, add one to your existing level of your spell casting class.

At each level, pick a Paragon Path

Paragon Paths:
These Paragon Paths are able to be chosen at any level. If you pick one that scales with level, then treat it as if you had picked it at first level, gaining all earlier abilities up to your current Troglodyte Paragon level.

Stench Control - At will, you can turn your stench ability on and off. As a swift or move action, you can increase the power of your stench, treating those have previously saved within the last 24 hours to re-roll their save. This can be used a number of times per day equal to 3+con modifier. For each level of Troglodyte Paragon you possess, increase the DC of the Stench Aura by 1.

Growth - You become a Large size creature. -1 to AC, Reach 10', +1 CMB/CMD.

Raw Physical Power - At level 1, you gain +4 strength at the cost of -2 Dexterity and - 2 to one mental stat of your choice. At level 4, this increases to +6 Strength or +2 Constitution.

Skill Focus - At 1st level, your racial stealth bonus increases to +8 (+12 in rocky areas). At 2nd level, you gain a +4 racial bonus to Intimidate. At 3rd level, your stealth bonus increases to +10 (+14 in rocky areas). At 4th level, your intimidate bonus increases to +6.

Hardened Shell - Your Natural Armor increases by +2 at first level and an additional +1 at 3rd and 5th level.

Magical Aptitude - You gain Arcane Sight and Speak with Animals (Dinosaurs and Reptiles only) as an at will spell-like ability. At 2nd level, you gain Hypnotism as an at will spell-like ability. At 3rd level, your Arcane Sight becomes constant and you gain either Charm Monster or Cause Fear as a spell-like ability 3/day. At 4th level, you gain either Charm Monster or Cause Fear (which ever you didn't pick from 3rd level) as a spell-like ability usable 3/day. At 5th level, you gain Dominate Monster as a spell-like ability usable 1/day.

The save progression is strange.

HD are d8?

Domniate monster is rather concerning. It's a 9th level spell for a reason.

It's not jsut a save or die, it's a save or die, that gives a likely powerul minion for several days.

I gave it a high fort, medium wil, and low reflex progression. Although there may be no such thing as a medium save progression. I may be thinking of a different game.

Hit dice would be D8.

The spells are straight from the troglodyte paragon monster page, as a CR 5 creature.

Yeah. The saves are wrong. I was thinking of something else. I'll fix it.

I gave it a high fort, medium wil, and low reflex progression. Although there may be no such thing as a medium save progression. I may be thinking of a different game.

Hit dice would be D8.

The spells are straight from the troglodyte paragon monster page, as a CR 5 creature.

It's probobly not as bad in pratice as it seems (dominate monster, I mean).

It seems fine.

All I did was make the CR 1 trog to CR 5 Paragon into a steady progression at a 5 level class. I gave some options to pick when you get what, made some of them a bit better, and set it up so you get to pick which can ones you want. You lose out on one of them, but the increased power of the rest makes up for it.

And it costs you 5 levels of your other classes with only some progression in your spells.

All I did was make the CR 1 trog to CR 5 Paragon into a steady progression at a 5 level class. I gave some options to pick when you get what, made some of them a bit better, and set it up so you get to pick which can ones you want. You lose out on one of them, but the increased power of the rest makes up for it.

And it costs you 5 levels of your other classes with only some progression in your spells.

It looks fine.

Dominate monster is my only worry, but that really is only bad if somthing really big fails the save.

Yeah. I was worried when I saw it, too. Feel free to modify it as you see fit.

Maybe decrease it to once per week.

I'm afraid it'll cause mass losses as far as skills go, to the point of not gaining skills anymore. If it's possible he could actually lose skill points he already has...

His int is 5, so with 2+ Int he'd get -1 skill point per level...

There's also a problem with Raw Physical Power. Part of the reason they're called Paragons is because they're actually much smarter than other Troglodytes. Taking a negative to mental scores is rather counterintuitive to the concept...

I'm afraid it'll cause mass losses as far as skills go, to the point of not gaining skills anymore. If it's possible he could actually lose skill points...

There's also a problem with Raw Physical Power. Part of the reason they're called Paragons is because they're actually much smarter than other Troglodytes. Taking a negative to mental scores is rather counterintuitive to the concept...

He'll have to be very picky about his skills, that's for sure, but a racial +8 (and growing!) will keep you very much in the game there. Also you get a minimum of 1 skill per level.

I'm afraid it'll cause mass losses as far as skills go, to the point of not gaining skills anymore. If it's possible he could actually lose skill points he already has...

His int is 5, so with 2+ Int he'd get -1 skill point per level...

There's also a problem with Raw Physical Power. Part of the reason they're called Paragons is because they're actually much smarter than other Troglodytes. Taking a negative to mental scores is rather counterintuitive to the concept...

I...

And he said it.

Also, the flavor of the Paragons specify that they are /powerful/ individuals from their time.

While an ancent troglodye is better then a standard one...

Paragons are powerful because they were powerful /individuals/ as well.

Honestly, the idea as a whole has me scratching my head a bit.

There's a lot of power to be gained, but it seems you want it with little personal risk or conesequense.

Reverting farther into an ancent, primal beast, tends to have it's consequenses.

Basically, I'm not sure what to say or do.