How is this for seek and the fox? A service dog typically sits when it finds something. You don't want him sitting in front of something dangerous and you would not be alerted, so you taught him to return and sit if he found something. If not he will return and act normally.
Sounds good to me.
I just found out that Grokar Threatens 15-20 not 10-15 like I thought.
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Agreed. 15 with a normal weapon, 20 with a reach weapon. Is that what you are saying?
Found a good discussion here. Seems like normal reach is 10 ft. The reach weapon gets you to squares at either 15 or 20. Anything 10 or closer does not threaten. Does that sound correct?
Yeah that was what I was talking about. People keep singing the the praises of the spiked gauntlet. It does make sense. I should have just poked at the bush, I don't know why I closed all the way on it. That was dumb of me.
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LOL. I think these guys are too weak to give you too much trouble. I will still do my best to pester you with them. I like the size thing.
I also finally jumped on my laptop and had time to edit my HP and move my token to reflect the 5 foot step back Grokar took before it died on me. Of course I forgot my charger this morning. I will try to move myself whenever I can, I just do so much of my posting on the go using Wayfinder.
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Sorry, I don't know why I put 1d20 on the damage. Total early morning brain fart.
Figured as much. Have you been using +4 to hit all along? I was using your leveled up spec sheet to get those numbers. I know +7 is correct now.
Didn't realize you were so close to the wrong side of positive Rhen. My bad.
Also, I dont remember if I told you this Igar but here is the Whip Mastery feat I took:
You no longer provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip. You can deal lethal damage with a whip, although you can still deal nonlethal damage when you want. Further, you can deal damage with a whip despite a creature’s armor bonus or natural armor bonus.
I did not realize or recall that. Thanks. It still lives. Damage applied.
I hope we are not boring you, Grokar.
Boring me? Not at all, I hope y'all don't mind that I am still figuring out how to play this character.
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Understandable, he is complicated but a true beast. I really like your character. That's the thing about pathfinder. No rocket science but so many rules. I know I made one mistake in that fight that did not affect outcome at all. Not to mention the whip feat. If I ever miss anything that matters on the rules, feel free to call me out. I'm doing my best to follow the rules.
I never played RPG's growing up and started pathfinder about two years ago. I've only ever done pbp, but I know that a group can make or break a game and, I really like y'alls style. If there are areas that I can improve let me know.
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You are a perfect fit. Change nothing. And we found each other in 1.5 hrs of recruitment. Amazing.
That was pretty great.
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Zevon, how many charges in your clw? I will track that as well so I drop one when needed.
38
Do we track the new gold that we aquire?
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Players call. We have been collecting, assuming you sell, and you get the gold your level would have without all that bookkeeping.
That's cool I was just confused because Zevon had written how much gold we received each.
Also how do you feel about immediate actions in combat? A ask because of a spell that might interrupt an attack. I can always just not use it but I figured I'd ask.
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Remains players call. I was surprised at Zevon because that was a first. Maybe just roll playing? Immediate actions are in the rules. I intend to follow the rules. What specifically are you referring to?
Specifically the spell stone shield, because it interrupts an attack which can be weird in pbp.
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Yeah, I see the pbp issue. State it like a readied action and I can apply it if necessary. Do you think that would work?
Sure that seems good thanks for checking it out for me
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Yeah that was more roleplaying and an FYI if anyone wanted to keep track.
It really is tough to adjudicate it in combat. I think a new save is fair. While the nixies didn't attack, the bugbear did and he is an ally. Then you have the fact he didn't attack a charmed person, but he attacked on of our allies and that could be seen as threatening us. What really throws this off is "threatens" rather than "targets," and one could argue that he is throwing a javelin in our direction that hits a friend. I think that warrants something, and a resave is totally fair.
Monster manual lists charm person as the first entry under nixie combat, hence that approach. A nice change of venue, I think. A little break from the hollow.
I like it. I totally think that was a good first move for them, and it would have worked. But like as with any enchanter I have played, the big guy with a sharp stick comes in and messes it up when everything was under control!
I like it too, That being said I don't think that the bugbear attacking Grokar would mess with the charm. Now if one of the nixis attacked Grokar or if the bugbear attacked one of the charmed i think ot would be a problem. I feel like my explanation of charm person could use a flow chart. Also My brain is fried at this time on Tuesdays and Thursdays so feel free to disregard my comments. But I really like rules and wanted to get in on this
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I like waxing on the finer points of rules too. (and I am sitting in an airport with absolutely nothing else to do)
I agree that Grokar and the bugbear are tertiary to the situation. What muddles it up is, as Igar says, the can of worms attached to charm. All it really does mechanically is make the target friendly per the Diplomacy skill. That isn't even the top of the scale. So the cast is my buddy, but "we aint that close." You would have a beer with the guy, but helping him move is going to take a charisma check(which is also kind of addressed in the spell description).
Things get fuzzy when you start bringing in allies. Now really there is a case to be made that we could have gotten a +5 to the first save, since the bugbear had already threatened us: "If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw." Since we were already on edge,but maybe not enough to get the +5, when this guy (who I am not friendly with) that is an ally of the charmer, attacks one of my friends there probably should be some detrimental effect to the spell. Granted, it was Grokar that was attacked and not by the charmer, so it depends on the interpretation of an "act that threatens," and mine is pretty liberal. However, a more conservative reading means by inverse that a charmed creature only regards the caster as friendly and his allies remain hostile. I think that limits the effectiveness of the spell in other situations.
Really, the first and second to last sentence make this a very difficult spell to use in a combat situation. It can be used to defuse one, but even then the target gets a big bonus to the save. It really is a fine like to walk between rules as written and rules as intended.
I mulled it over pretty well and looked at discussions on it beforehand. I think you will like the way I play it out and rule on it. I will be going strictly by RAW when RAW applies and they will take actions where RAW covers their actions. The additional save is not RAW. Raw does not allow for an additional save. I agree more with Grokar on that ruling.
Good deal. So if we are going RAW, do we get +5 to our initial saves since we were already threatened by the Bugbear?
I did give you that option. Bulgard used his and failed so no harm, no foul. Going forward +5 is RAW.
Nice. Got ya. Good to discuss some ole rule theory!
The save is on your next move, Zevon. Can you delete that?
Reason. The spell was cast prior to the javelin.
Yup, done! Thought it was immediate that's why I didn't take an action with it.
Okay. Just so we are on the same page.
Prior to initiative, the Nixies cast charm and get Zevon and Bulgard
(call that a surprise round)
Initiative Round 1
Zevon calls off Grokar (There may be the confusion. We posted at the same time)
Nossfur throws javelin at Grokar, pixie attempts to charm Rhen (I make call Zevon and Bulgard get an additional save at +5 next turn)
Bulgard attempts his additional save at + 5 and fails, takes no additional action
Rhen is up. He needs to save DC 15 will at +5 and then make his move
Looked at that +5 again.
"If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw."
Rhen is not under attack (threatened is a stretch and I'm not going there). +5 is only if you are being attacked. Let's play it that way. Sorry for all the confusion.
You get the +5 only if you are under attack.
Grokar, are you alive?
Oh man, sorry I was still waiting for Rehn, my gameplay thread didn't say there was an update. My bad
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Sorry, I'm confused again. I thought 19 was good enough to beat the Charm.
I went RAW. 19 would beat the charm from the dead nixie that Grokar killed. Kinda moot. I assumed you were doing the free additional I ruled on and then reversed. We are good. You did cost me a nixie, however, when I moved a second one into range. But, I forgive you.
This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.
The spell does not enable you to control the charmed person as if it were an automaton, but it perceives your words and actions in the most favorable way. You can try to give the subject orders, but you must win an opposed Charisma check to convince it to do anything it wouldn’t ordinarily do. (Retries are not allowed.) An affected creature never obeys suicidal or obviously harmful orders, but it might be convinced that something very dangerous is worth doing. Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell. You must speak the person’s language to communicate your commands, or else be good at pantomiming.
I realize you have made your ruling and that is fine, but I feel that if the Bugbear attacks any of us or "threatens anyone the spell ends." He should have been used to distract us so that the Nixie's could get us
As a side note Look at their languages
They cannot even charm anyone who doesn't speak their language. Seems rather dumb to not give them common.
I was aware of the language issue. The module refers to the nixies in the monster manual page 235 which is different than what you see listed in pathfinder sites. These have 3hp. It states some speak common. It also states they prefer to use charm as opposed to open combat.
Any act by you or your apparent allies that threatens the charmed person breaks the spell.
Drokar is the only player that has been threatened.
Grokar? Rhen wasn't charmed at first and acted to kill a nixie.
It is funny that the d20PFSRD doesn't have their languages right.
Like Rhen said, totally fine with the ruling, but I think this is a cool rules discussion.
Grokar is the only player that has been attacked. We were all threatened by the bugbear before the spells were cast. Now I an not convinced that he attacking Grokar breaks the spell, that's a little liberal as I said above, and there is a strong argument against it. However, because we were already threatened, I think that we should have gotten the +5 from the initial saves. I think the whole issue boils down to the semantics of threatened and attacked. The spell establishes that those are two separate things when it says "threatened OR attacked" (emphasis mine). Now that is pretty clear when it comes to the initial save, but it gets fuzzy when dealing with actions that could possibly end the spell.