MOCK BATTLE POST
Although normally not the type to engage in violence, Gavril recognizes that things have quickly gotten out of hand when the shooting starts, and he feels a slug pound against his chest, only the flak jacket keeping him safe. The large Romanian closes quickly to the closest thug--1d4--Thug D and throws a powerful fist his way.
[dice=Fighting]1d8 [dice=Explosion]1d8
[dice=Wild]1d6
[dice=Damage]1d8+1d4+2+1d6
The man strikes with years of training--and plenty of power--behind the blow, and it smashes into the gunman's jaw, sending a few teeth flying into the air. "DO YOU NOT KNOW IS NOT NICE TO SHOOT AT PEOPLE?!"
Pretty close...but you didn't take into the equation that your character is currently shaken. Your options are:
1. Make a Spirit roll. On a success you're unshaken but can only take free actions. With a raise on this roll you are unshaken and may act normally.
2. Spend a benny which serves the same as a successful spirit roll with a raise...in other words you can act normally.
If you take any wounds you are at -1 to all actions per wound taken. You can be wounded and unshaken.
In the above example I would assume that you spent a benny to remove the shaken condition. I normally make my spirit roll first, then if I don't get the raise and need to act spend the benny.
John: The reference to the enemy's Fighting die was due to their Parry, since the two are linked. Even if the enemy had a Fighting die of d12, their Parry would still only be an 8, meaning a roll of 14 would still be a hit with a raise.
Arlo: Actually, Gavril was the only character not Shaken by the first round of bullets, thanks to his high Toughness and flak jacket, as determined by John's first post. As such, he was fine to charge in.
I don't see why his toughness hasn't been exceeded.
Half Vigor = 3
+2 +5
+1 Toughness
+2 Flak Jacket for a total of: 8
If he took 10 damage then he should be stunned??
Am I missing something.
John didn't have as good a grip on the weapon as he thought, and the kickback throws it flying from his hand.
Nate's head snaps around when the street toughs issue their threat. He spins and reaches for his gun, but the thugs have caught everyone off guard. Shots ring out and fire seems to explode in his left arm.
Grimacing in pain, Nate dives for the cover of a crate.
"Nobodies? NOBODIES?!" shouts Nate in anger as he verifies a through-and-through that didn't nick a major artery. "Run while you can scumbags, before you find out which somebodies we are!"
Don't forget you get your wild die on this taunt roll as well. If you don't have a skill then both dice subtract 2 from the total. They can still explode.
I believe I always rule that Taunt is an attempt to enrage the opponent causing them to do something, while Intimidate is an attempt to cower the opponent forcing them to do something.
>>>> I'll bet he figured in his whole Vigor die instead of half of it for his toughness<<<<<<
MOCK BATTLE POST
Ok, let's see...
Arlo, thanks for the reminder to always take the Spirit roll first, *then* spend a Bennie if you don't like the results. I should have done that with John.
Gavril, thanks for explaining the Fighting/Parry reference.
My apologies, somehow my table of the PC's fighting specs here at home listed Nate first, then Gavril. So in my first post I had their Toughnesses swapped.
In which case, *everyone* would have ended up Shaken!
Sorry for the confusion.
Gavril, please make a Spirit roll to see what happens. If you don't get a raise, and assuming you want to keep those nice punch results, let's say that your fury snapped you out of it, costing you a Bennie.
Nate, a few things : first, one of the annoying/confusing things (to me, as a SW newbie) is that even if you recover from Shaken, you can't take a non-free action that round unless you get at least one Raise.
*IF* you remain un-Shaken until your next turn, you can act then (but the bad guys MAY be able to attack before then, and you MIGHT end up re-Shaken by the time you get to your turn).
Also, in the first post I allowed that you had time to draw your weapons, as the kids weren't making any attempt to be quiet, so you heard them before they saw you.
So I'll leave it up to you whether you want to spend a Bennie so you can act, and if so, whether you want to stick with the Intimidation or use your gun. Don't read any farther before you decide! ;)
Second thing is, why did you say the Wild die didn't help? It's larger than the first roll, so you'll use it. Or did you mean it just didn't help by much? In any case, the bad guy's TN for his Spirit roll will be a 2.
Third thing is, if you spend the Bennie, the Intimidate must be directed at a single target. I'm going to assume the guy who shot you, B.
So your outrage has no effect on the thug, who laughs at you.
Still haven't heard from FatherO, but re-rolling Initiative for the next round just to see what's going to be happening :
Initiative
Gavril :
Nate :
John :
Father0 :
Bad guys :
Tie-breaking (by-the-book uses the suits, which is random-without-repetition, so I'm going to simulate that by using a d100, which should hopefully give 3 values that won't be the same) :
Gavril :
Father0 :
Bad guys :
Really, dice-bot? REALLY? Ok, smartass, let's try d1000!
Gavril :
Father0 :
Bad guys :
Hmph. :)
Ok, next round : Nate first, then John, Gavril, Bad guys, FatherO.
If those of you up first want to give me your actions now, we can retcon FatherO's first action in.
NOTES : Gavril, Nate, John, *FatherO, A, B, C, *D/1
Nate, a few things : first, one of the annoying/confusing things (to me, as a SW newbie) is that even if you recover from Shaken, you can't take a non-free action that round unless you get at least one Raise.
Well, the PDF says of Spirit rolls against Shaken:
Success: The character is no longer Shaken, but can still only perform free actions.
Secondly/additionally, of combat it states:
Characters may perform multiple actions [simultaneously] such as Intimidating someone while blasting away with a shotgun...
Finally, among the examples of free actions it lists:
Speaking a short sentence or two...
And I provided my rationale for thinking that diving for nearby cover (essentially "falling down") was a free action.
So from the above I reasoned that Nate could snark at the baddies while or after diving for cover since he made the Spirit roll and everything seemed to be free actions.
Now, if simply adding die rolls morphs a couple of spoken lines from a free action into a regular action, I accept that... but it also tells me that SW is just as quirky and irrational as PF. :op
(For what it's worth, the gibe I threw in was purely for RP at first; you said (well, implied) you wanted that. But while previewing the post it occurred to me that I could use it to try out another aspect of the system, so I added the roll-related stuff.)
Also, in the first post I allowed that you had time to draw your weapons, as the kids weren't making any attempt to be quiet, so you heard them before they saw you.
Yes, I know. It was fluff because of your RP comment; I thought you wanted flavor. I'll lock it down from now on since (at least my) role play seems to be confusing the matter. Sorry for misinterpreting your remark.
As to your question, it stays as played. No Bennie used. He shook the shaken and dove for cover (which you didn't comment on so I presume is in fact a free action). And he snarked at the baddies because, well, he's a Burt Gummer clone. If rolling dice changes a gibe from a free action into a regular action, then dump the rolls.
Second thing is, why did you say the Wild die didn't help? It's larger than the first roll, so you'll use it.
Yes, two is twice as big as one. :op But it's still pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things. And I'll keep my mouth shut and just work the mechanics from now on rather than being chatty and murkifying things.
Really, dice-bot? REALLY?
You haven't truly met DiceBot yet, have you. :o) [Yoda voice]"No idea you have, yes."[/Yoda voice]
MOCK BATTLE POST
Nate sits, back to the crate, pistol readied, until there's a break in the gunfire. Then, moving like lightning, he spins and squeezes off a single precise shot over the box before again ducking down.
"And that's why they call me 'Thrasher'," Nate smirks to himself.
Knowing that he's now in close range with gunmen, and that bringing them down quickly is more important than staying on the defensive--you can't block or dodge a bullet--Gavril sets his feet and throws a powerful haymaker at the man before him.
Gavril's fist crashes against the man's cheek and nose, breaking the cartilage and dropping him to the ground. The large Romanian then drops into the best cover he can without retreating, hoping not to get riddled with bullets.
A couple of observations:
Generally, just talking in my games is free...just like you used it...however if you wish to have a mechanical effect on the game then it should be an action.
Nate> No matter how many raises you get on you attack, it is still only one extra d6 of damage. The higher hit roll can come into play for things like called shots, and overcoming penalties.
Gavril> While the TN to hit for a ranged weapon is 4 (Plus or minus range etc.) to hit in melee you must meet / exceed the target's parry score.
MOCK BATTLE POST
Nate :
This has been covered by others, but Taunt/Intimidate are a "Test of Will", which is specifically an Action, because it affects another person (hope that explains why it's not such a "quirky" rule).
Nothing wrong with trying the Intimidate (in general), I just wanted to make sure you understood you had other options. Please, continue to go for the flavor!
Others have pointed out the "only +1d6 damage regardless of #raises", but I will add that I will take the first d6 roll (my SOP, as you know).
However, I'm confused by your damage procedure :
Damage (Desert Eagle: 2d8 + 2d6 ⇒ (6, 8) + (3, 1) = 18 Second d8 explodes, yes?
Boom: 1d8 + 8 ⇒ (6) + 8 = 14
Wild: 1d6 ⇒ 1
Bonus Damage (Precision): 1d6 ⇒ 1
I can understand your adding 2d6 to the first line (the erroneous +2d6 from 2 raises on the attack roll), but then you add *another* d6 for "Precision"? At first I thought that was an Edge, but there's nothing like that in the 2011 manual. Where's that coming from?
Anyway, here's what I think your damage should be : 6+8(weapon) + 3(first d6 from Attack raise) + 6(explode) + 1(Wild) = 24
Please confirm this before I go any further. Thanks!
Gavril : So you are now at -2 to Parry until your next action. What a pity that doesn't apply to Ranged attacks as well. :)
But (going step-by-step here) 11 vs. 6 is a Success with 1 raise. Since your victim is already Shaken and wounded, he stays Shaken and takes 1 wound, not 2.
The "Shaken while Shaken" rules are confusing, so please, DOES ANYONE DISAGREE?
And even if he had taken 2 more wounds, he'd be at 3, and not Incapacitated.
So if you move away from him at this point, he'd get a "Withdraw" attack on you. But since he's not down, you might not want to move away anyway. So please let me know if you're staying or moving away.
Arlo : Gavril knew what his opponent's Parry and Toughness were from the first encounter. But that brings up a good point :
I guess in general everyone will have to assume that your opponent's Parry is about 5 or 6 (seems to be typical for Novice encounters), and list optional actions (including damage that might not be taken) if the results are "iffy".
NOTES : Gavril (-2 Parry), Nate, John, *FatherO, A, B, C, *D/2(AFAIK)
Gavril : So you are now at -2 to Parry until your next action. What a pity that doesn't apply to Ranged attacks as well. :)
Yup, that's part of why I decided to go for it. No good reason not to, unless the guy by me decides to pull a knife or something. Even then, my Parry will still be 4, which isn't too bad.
But (going step-by-step here) 11 vs. 6 is a Success with 1 raise. Since your victim is already Shaken and wounded, he stays Shaken and takes 1 wound, not 2.
The "Shaken while Shaken" rules are confusing, so please, DOES ANYONE DISAGREE?
Yeah, this section in the rules is a little wonky, especially with the imperfect example they provide. Basically, if an opponent is already Shaken, and they take an attack that would normally only make them Shaken, it causes a Wound instead, and they remain Shaken. Any raises add additional Wounds. Basically, damage goes as follows:
Shaken-->1 Wound-->2 Wounds-->3 Wounds-->IncapacitatedSo against an opponent that's Shaken, a success against their Toughness causes a Wound. Note that you always have to hit Shaken first, meaning if an opponent that isn't Shaken but has 2 Wounds already gets hit with a raise on damage, they become Shaken and go up to 3 Wounds.
In this case, the opponent was already Shaken with 1 Wound, so when he got hit for (essentially) 2 more "damage," he picked up two more Wounds.
And even if he had taken 2 more wounds, he'd be at 3, and not Incapacitated.
I did forget about the step between 3 Wounds and Incapacitated, though, so for now Gavril will stay in melee with that enemy.
MOCK BATTLE POST
Gavril, I still respectfully disagree. I'm *not* saying I'm right, just that I disagree.
I found this on SW's own forum, which was seen and ok'd by Clint, their all-knowing site admin who officially answers RAW questions :
================================================
Target NOT shaken :
Success = Shaken
Raise = 1 Wound and Shaken
2 Raises = 2 Wounds and Shaken ...
Target SHAKEN :
Success = 1 Wound
Raise = 1 Wound and stays Shaken
2 Raises = 2 Wounds and stays Shaken ...
================================================
The bolded line is our situation, and it says he takes 1 more wound, not 2.
Anyone else want to weigh in on this?
I have always played it the way Gravril stated, but after re-reading the rule I believe you are right. I think the only way to cause a would is by getting a raise. This is good, because it makes combat a little less deadly.
Huh. If that's the ruling, I'm fine to go by it, but it doesn't make sense to me, since the enemy would remain Shaken regardless (at least until their turn, at which point they could roll Spirit). I don't see the point of using a raise to maintain a condition that doesn't need maintaining.
Thanks, guys. This is helping (a lot), and getting a base understanding HERE will help the actual game flow more smoothly.
I'm confused by your damage procedure...
I can understand your adding 2d6 to the first line (the erroneous +2d6 from 2 raises on the attack roll), but then you add *another* d6 for "Precision"? At first I thought that was an Edge, but there's nothing like that in the 2011 manual. Where's that coming from?
Bonus Damage
Well-placed attacks are more likely to hit vital areas, and so do more damage. If your hero gets a raise on his attack roll (regardless of how many raises), he adds +1d6 to the final total. This roll may also Ace!
Note that the above is distinct from the earlier section on attacks:
Ranged Attacks
The Shooting skill covers everything from pistols to rocket
launchers. The base TN to hit something at Short range is 4
as usual. Shots at Medium range subtract 2 from the Shooting
roll, and shots at Long range subtract 4 from the roll.► Bonus Damage: If you hit your target with a raise, add
+1d6 to the damage total. This roll may Ace just like any other
damage roll.
(For what it's worth, the fact the "precision damage" block explicitly states a single +1d6 "regardless of how many raises" but the attack section just says to add d6 in response to "a raise" is what caused me to believe the attack section was saying 1d6 adder per raise.)
In retrospect, I'm guessing the second section is just repeating what the first section said and it's only +1d6 on a raise, period. But if so, this is very poorly presented especially considering the differing wording. At the least, the second section should include e.g. "As previously noted..."
At any rate, that's where the third +1d6 came from.
Anyway, here's what I think your damage should be : 6+8(weapon) + 3(first d6 from Attack raise) + 6(explode) + 1(Wild) = 24
If my thinking's correct above, then 24 should be right. (If you're wondering why there's only one point of difference between that and my number, it's because I managed to miss a die; the original (wrong) sum should have been 26.)
Yeah, you only ever get a single extra d6 on damage, regardless of your raises. It's the trade-off between a character who focuses on very heavy hits but isn't too accurate, and an accurate warrior who may not deal a ton of damage.
Of course, it's possible to build someone who does both, but then you're most likely a one-trick pony (albeit with a very useful trick).
MOCK BATTLE POST
Regarding raises and wounds, just checking other sources, to see what they say :
The user-created but SW-sanctioned Combat Flowchart says that if there are any raises, the target takes 1 wound per raise, whether it is Shaken or not.
Oh, and I just discovered while Googling that the table of results I gave in the previous post was actually posted by Clint himself! So that IS the official SW ruling. Why didn't they just put THAT in the manual?!? :)
Nate
I agree, I think that's the same effect mentioned twice. As many times as I've seen SW people say you have to read the book carefully because every sentence matters and there's no repetition, that is an exception.
So you did 24 points of damage vs. the target's Toughness of 6. That's...um...ok, finally breaking down and programming my 30-year-old HP 11C calculator...FOUR raises! Wow, down in one shot! I've seen in my simulations that there's a 2-4% chance of the first shot dropping someone, but...wow!
Nate's shot flies straight for the punk's heart. He looks rather surprised as he starts to fall to the ground...
Just for fun, spending a GM Bennie to Soak some of that damage (if this had happened to my PC and I had only 1 Bennie left, I'd wait and use it on my Incapacitation roll, but...). There's no penalties because he doesn't have any wounds YET :
Wow, glad that's not my PC or I'd be pissed! :) So in addition to being dropped on the first shot, as he hits the ground everyone hears his own gun go off into his belly...
Gavril : one minor thing (mostly to remind myself) - your opponent *wouldn't* get the free Withdraw attack, because he's Shaken.
Still waiting to hear from FatherO, and will post John's move next. As well as the bad guys soon.
NOTES : Gavril (-2 Parry), Nate, John, *FatherO, A, C, *D/2
MOCK BATTLE POST
Does it bother anyone else that as soon as the bad guys get to cover on their turn, this might deteriorate into : pop up from cover, shoot (at -6 for Near Total Cover), pop back down? That's going to go nowhere mighty fast!
I'm not seriously thinking of implementing a house rule at this point, but if I were, how about : if you lose sight of your target between your actions (Near Total Cover), you're at -2 to your attack when you pop up. That would encourage people to at least stay at Heavy Cover (-4), but even that's still pretty bad.
Thoughts?
MOCK BATTLE POST
John scrambles for his gun, managing to stay behind cover. He then draws a bead on the guy who shot him (C), and tries again :
Well, a Success is better than nothing...
Is a success against the punk's Toughness, no raises. He becomes Shaken.
Scrambling back to his cover and ducking all the way down.
Guess that wasn't much of a penalty for the Critical Failure. Have to work on that...
NOTES : Gavril (-2 Parry), Nate, John, *FatherO, A, *C, *D/2
MOCK BATTLE POST
I'm kind of surprised NO ONE caught this (the only reason I did was I just checked the rules when I rolled for my damage) :
Nate - the Damage roll is the ONLY time (I know of) when you do NOT add in a d6 Wild Die! Only a *possible* d6 from Attack raises.
Fortunately that 1 point doesn't change the #raises.
I'm kind of surprised NO ONE caught this...
DiceBot did. :op And it tried to tell me. Notice it gave me the lowest possible result for every die I wasn't supposed to be rolling... but on only those dice:
Damage (Desert Eagle: 2d8 + 2d6 ⇒ (6, 8) + (3, 1) = 18 Second d8 explodes, yes?
Boom: 1d8 + 8 ⇒ (6) + 8 = 14
Wild: 1d6 ⇒ 1
Bonus Damage (Precision): 1d6 ⇒ 1
MOCK BATTLE POST
Ok, the bad guys are up (most of them, anyway...)!
Probably at this point in a real scenario they'd be so demoralized that they'd scatter - a friend is dead, and (so far) 2 of the remaining 3 can't take any actions. But I want to run this out to the bitter end.
For all of the following, please keep in mind that Nate and John cannot see what's going on - all they do is hear any shots that are fired, and maybe possibly footsteps!
A gets over to cover, but doesn't duck, and Holds.
C gets over to cover, and tries to recover from Shaken :
= 5 = Success, no Raises
Since he can't act, he ducks down.
Actually, I take that back, I'm spending a Bennie so he can recover and act (AFAIK, I have 2 Bennies per punk, and one per PC, so I've got a bunch - but probably more than is intended since every bad guy is a Wild Card, so I'll try not to abuse them. I'm thinking 6-8 is a realistic limit, and I've used 2.)
He remains standing, and Holds. A and C gesture at each other.
Gavril and FatherO, please make Notice rolls, TN=6 (+2 for noticing something in the heat of battle, does that sound ok?)
D tries to recover from Shaken (at -2 from wounds) :
= 6-2 = 4 = Success, no raise
Yeah, spending another Bennie. Nuts, now I wish I'd spent a Bennie on trying to Soak Gavril's last attack. Oh well.
D manages to shake off the head-fog from the severe beat-down that Gavril has put on him, and gets off a shot at Gavril (at -2 from wounds) :
... = 9-2 = 7 is a Success and *almost* a Raise (drat!)
... = 14 vs. 10 Toughness is a Success and a Raise!
Gavril would be Shaken and take a Wound.
Gavril, want to Soak?
I'll put off rolling for the next round of Initiative until the outstanding questions have been resolved.
Please could everyone look over what I've done carefully to see if I did anything wrong? Thanks!
NOTES : *?Gavril/1? (-2 Parry), Nate, John, *FatherO, A(Hold), C(Hold), D/2
Nate - heh, "how do it know"???
MOCK BATTLE POST
Hm... yeah, I'll go ahead and try to Soak.
Alright, 5 is a normal Success, which removes a Wound. I don't know if I'm still Shaken, though, since the rules state "If the character is left with any wounds from an attack, he’s still Shaken." So I'm not sure if I'm Shaken or not. Others can call or look it up, but I gotta go to work in a minute.
MOCK BATTLE POST
Gavril : since the Soak cancelled all your potential Wounds, I would say that you'd be left in your previous state of "Shaken-ness". In other words, it's the Wound that would have also made you Shaken, and that went away, so you're not Shaken.
However, if you already HAD been Shaken, even if the Soak had cancelled all new potential Wounds, I would assume you'd STAY Shaken. I can look this up later.
Anybody else have any other thoughts on this?
I think that's all the catch-up from before, so new round :
Initiative
Gavril :
Nate :
John : SEE BELOW for the potential Joker resolution
Father0 : (also a potential Joker, but since the player is MIA...)
Bad guys :
So, in order : Bad guys, Gavril, Nate, John, FatherO
A is Holding.
C is Holding.
D curses "Die you M--F--!" and shoots at Gavril again (-2 from Wounds) :
.... = 9-2 = 7 vs. 4 is a Success, no Raise
.... = 12 vs. 10 is a Success, no Raise
Gavril has the breath knocked out of him again (Shaken), but the vest absorbs most of the damage.
Oops, Gavril I need you to make a Notice roll when you can.
Nate and John, the results of that roll (from the last round) might affect what you do this round. Or you can just go ahead and act...
I didn't remember/notice the potential Joker rolls until after I had dice-bot'd all of the above, and when I went to insert the following below John's roll, it thru off everything else. So I'm putting it here.
Nope.
NOTES : *Gavril(-2 Parry), Nate, John, *FatherO, A(Hold), C(Hold), D/2
A gets over to cover, but doesn't duck, and Holds.
MOCK BATTLE POST
"It's not too late to cut your losses and run, punks!"
At another break in the fire, Nate pops his head and gun over the top of the crate again. Smiling at the site of his first target prone and bleeding, he quickly sights another and fires before again taking cover.
MOCK BATTLE POST
Gavril pauses for a moment, fighting off the pain as two bullets pound into his chest point-blank. One gets close to hurting him, he can tell, but he fights through the pain of that shot.
"Eh... You not know that is bad word? YOU KISS MOTHER WITH MOUTH?" Gavril shouts, almost incoherently, as he grabs the gunman and throws a third, powerful punch.
After launching a full uppercut into the man's solar plexus, getting all his eight behind the blow, Gavril drops him and dashes for cover, falling prone if necessary in order to avoid any chance of lead poisoning. Bringing fists to a gunfight isn't always the best plan, huh.
MOCK BATTLE POST
PLEASE COULD ALL PLAYERS LIST #BULLLETS USED AND #BENNIES USED AT THE END OF EACH OF YOUR POSTS? THANKS!
Nate : as you pop up to take your shot, you see that one of the punks is already aiming in your direction (that's what the Hold was about [but it is not the "Aim" maneuver]). Before you can complete your action, you must succeed on an opposed Agility roll vs. a TN of :
Eh, I'm running low on Bennies too, so I won't re-roll. You must get *better than* a 4 to shoot first.
Gavril : Spending a Bennie to Soak for the punk :
is a Success (-1 wound), no raises
Even with two wounds, D is now Incapacitated.
Apparently bringing *your* fists to a gunfight isn't such a bad plan. He's down and you're un-Shaken and un-Wounded! Ok, you spent a lot of Bennies, but still...
I'm looking into Prone+Cover, will get back to you...
John : also popping up to fire, and is also staring into the barrel of a gun, also having to make an Agility roll against a TN of :
= 6
John's roll :
= 4
Ok, so the punk goes first :
= 5 = Success, no raises
Does not get thru John's Kevlar
John's turn :
= 3 = Miss
[3 bullets, 1 Bennie]
NOTES : Gavril(-2 Parry), Nate, John, *FatherO, A, C; 4 Bennies used
MOCK BATTLE POST
The manual doesn't describe the interaction between Cover and Prone, nor can I find anything in forums.
My impression is that if the Cover is low (overturned bench or small table), then you have to get Prone to use it as Cover (which then could be as high as Near Total).
But if you're out in the open, you can also go Prone to get some minimal benefit.
The cover in this alley is wooden crates, large trash cans, trash bins, etc. so going Prone won't help any more. Sound ok?
Any other thoughts on this from anyone?
You must get *better than* a 4 to shoot first.
Okay.
Alright, then I won't go Prone, just sliding behind cover to get as much benefit as possible.
3 Bennies Used
Obviously, a +2 bonus is the better option when it comes to doing that or increasing your die. A d4+2 is basically like rolling a d6, except that you also have a minimum roll of 3, and your chance of getting an ace on the roll goes up (from roughly 30.56% to 37.5%). What about a +1 modifier, though?
Turns out a +1 is also incredibly useful, and it's mainly because every modifier on your base Trait roll applies to the Wild die. That means you're not rolling just a die with a +1 modifier and your wild die; both dice get that modifier. This works both ways, so it's really difficult to do things in bad situations, since you can't rely on your luck, but when the odds are in your favor, boy are they ever!
In this specific example, we'll look at a pretty good Edge: Signature Weapon, which gives you a +1 bonus on attacks with a given weapon. It requires you to have a d10 in the relevant skill, and for the sake of our example, we'll say somebody applied it to a ranged weapon like a gun.
First, let's look at what a shooter with just a plain d10 is dealing with when they take a shot at someone within the first range increment of their gun.
Shooter with d10 and Wild Die
So there's a decent chance of hitting even with a normal d10 and your Wild Die. What happens when you add a +1 modifier?
Shooter with d10, Wild Die, and Signature Weapon
(Up 8.33%)
(Up 10.28%)
(Same)
Alright, the chance to hit went up almost 10%, meaning a miss is going to be pretty rare when you're this dedicated to your gun. More importantly, though, the chance for a Raise on your attack roll went up over 10%, bringing it to 50%. That means that on average, half your attacks will now be getting an extra d6 on damage rolls, which is a pretty nice boost!
Now, let's say instead of buying that Edge, you boosted your shooting die to a d12.
Shooter with d12 and Wild Die
(Up 2.5% from original, down 5.83 from Signature Weapon)
(Up 10.04% from original, down .24% from Signature weapon)
(Down 1.39% from d10)
So really the only advance that's comparable is your chance of getting a Raise, which isn't a terrible trade. But your chance of hitting in general barely increased at all, and the chance of getting an Ace went down (admittedly this isn't a huge deal when it comes to this sort of roll, but still, exploding dice are fun)! You're still a great shooter, but you'd be even better had you focused in on a single weapon...
Of course, Signature Weapon narrows your options quite a bit, and increasing your Shooting die will make you a more accurate marksman in general, but still, getting a much higher chance to hit with a favorite gun seems a much better deal than getting a negligible increase in overall ability.
Maybe later tonight I'll try and work out some calculations on other modifier Edges, but for now, it's something to think about. If anyone wants to see how I got these numbers or check my math, feel free to ask/do so!
Gavril, that's great that you like doing the math and want to know how the system acts! I do too.
And there's a guy named Zadmar on the SW boards that does as well, you might want to visit HIS SITE.
See THIS POST for something I did on successes and raises for various dice and bonuses, and THIS POST for the chances of getting Shaken or Wounded per attack.
Have fun with your exploring! And please keep us posted on what you find...
MOCK BATTLE POST
Nate : You didn't specify which punk you were targeting, so I'm assuming the one targeting you (A).
The punk is Shaken.
Trying to recover :
Spending a Bennie to recover and act.
The punk is pissed now, so he fires a 3-round burst (+2 hit, +2 damage) :
.... = 15+2 vs. TN=4 is a Success and 3 raises (what a waste of Raises! :)
+2 = 13 is a Success, no Raises - you're Shaken
Despite being hit with 3 bullets in quick succession, Nate merely looks a little winded.
I think everyone's acted in this round, so...
Initiative
Gavril :
Nate :
John :
Father0 :
Bad guys :
So Nate, Punks, John, Gavril
NOTES : Gavril(-2 Parry), *Nate, John, *FatherO, A, C; 5 Bennies used
Nate : You didn't specify which punk you were targeting...
I absolutely did:
Shooting=>Thug A: 1d8 ⇒ 2
Why did you say that was a waste of Raises?
MOCK BATTLE POST
Nate manages to hit the thug, but fails to get back under cover before his target returns fire. He grunts as multiple bullets slam into his chest, and thanks technology for the wonders of Kevlar as he plops down heavily behind the crate.
Panting heavily, Nate's face twists into a snarl and, with an extended war cry, he stands and fires at the punk again.
His shot just barely missing the baddie, Nate drops behind the crate for a little more recovery time.
3 bullets down
1 Bennie used
MOCK BATTLE POST
Sorry, missed the "Thug A", only looked in the descriptive text. My bad.
It's far better to get a bunch of raises with the damage; past 1 raise on an attack roll, more raises don't do anything extra.
I'm glad you missed, because I forgot to state that both punks dropped behind their cover after firing. And, in retrospect, they would have been at -1 to hit for being at least partly covered. So much to remember!
OOPS, you didn't miss : you're Shooting at Close range, so TN=4. Even with the -1 (if he was still standing), you'd hit.
However, since you did go behind Total Cover (I'm dropping the "Near" from now on), *you don't know what A did after he shot you*.
So if you don't mind, I would like to retcon that when you pop up, you see no one to shoot. What do you do? :)
UPDATE ON SOAKING AND SHAKEN
In the *Errata* to the 2011 Deluxe edition, it specifically says that if you manage to Soak all the damage from THIS attack, you can also remove the Shaken condition from a previous attack.
Good to know!
So if you don't mind, I would like to retcon that when you pop up, you see no one to shoot. What do you do? :)
Don't mind at all. Though it's kind of anticlimactic... a righteous attack scream that fades to nothingness as he leaps up ready to shoot, and there's no target. :op
What do I do... hmm. Without any sort of map, it's hard to say. Is there another area he can dive for that would give him a tactical advantage? Is there a way he can do an end-run or climb-over and sneak around behind or nearer to the baddies? Do I know which crates these guys are probably adjacent to, and could I judge if a .50 cal bullet will penetrate both the crate and the person behind it? Can I just pull the pin on a grenade and lob it at them, or will that defeat the point of a practice battle? :op
If there's nothing immediately obvious, he'll hunker down as much as possible but keep his gun readied above the crate, intent being to shoot the first thing that moves. I guess that'd be a hold?
MOCK BATTLE POST
...and there's the beauty of SW : "yes".
You can Move so you can see him, shoot, then Move to get behind cover (as long as your total Move is 6" or less).
There are rules for shooting thru things, I have no idea what your chances would be for actually hitting the punk, or how much damage you'd end up doing.
You have a *grenade*? Really? Where'd you buy it, John wants some! :) That's a Throwing skill, but would probably affect *everyone* in the area. There's Area Effect rules for that.
But since you got to act first this time, the easiest, simplest thing to do is take a Hold action so that when the punk pops up, you do what he just did to you : opposed Agility rolls to shoot him first.
Eyes and gun exposed would be a -4 for their attack on you.
Want to stick with that? If so, make an Agility roll for later. With a Wild Die and explosions, and you can spend a Bennie to re-roll if you don't like it.
All : here's what I see to be a problem with gunfights and cover in SW - if the punks do the same, with -4's all around we'll never be hitting each other, and the battle turns into a tedious rollfest.
Any ideas?
MOCK BATTLE POST
Punks' turn :
A pops up and Nate tries to pop him. Rolling to resolve who goes first :
.... = 7
Back to him later when I know Nate's Agility roll. Nate, you're on your honor not to re-roll just because you know the punk's result. :)
BTW, he's standing, so -1 to your Attack for partial Cover.
C pops up, and not seeing John, Holds :
= 4
John peeks over his crate (-4) :
= 3
So the punk goes first :
= 18-4 = 14 vs. TN=4 = Success and 2 Raises
I MESSED THIS UP THE FIRST TIME, BUT IF I ADD AN EXPLOSION HERE IT WILL MESS UP *ALL* MY REMAINING RESULTS. Rolling for explosion below.
does not even get thru his Toughness (I'm ignoring that only his head was showing and the Kevlar is on his torso...)
As John rises slowly to barely peer over the crate, the punk shoots first but does no damage.
John returns fire :
= 5-1 = 4 is a Success, no raises
.... = 10 vs. Toughness=6 is a Success and a Raise.
John fires back and hits the punk in his torso, Wounding and Shaking him. John laughs and ducks back down behind the crate. The punk ducks down behind his crate.
Catch-up explosion :
Waiting for Nate and Gavril...
John : 2 Bennies, 3? bullets
NOTES : Gavril(-2 Parry), Nate, John/1, A, *C/1; 5 Bennies used
I was joking about the grenade. Desperately wanted one but they're flagged "Military" so no dice unless I can convince Maggie to issue some. After all, explosions seem pretty important in SW. :o)
Holding for a pop-up.
MOCK BATTLE POST
Under the hail of bullets, Gavril isn't sure what he can do to help. He scrambles over to the fallen punk and picks up his gun, preparing a very rudimentary plan in his mind.
MOCK BATTLE POST
Punk :
= 9 is a Success and a Raise
Doesn't get past Nate's Toughness
Even tho Nate is waiting for him, when the punk pops up over his trash can he manages to get his shot off first, but it's a glancing blow that Nate's vest deflects completely.
Dayum, Nate, how'd you get a 7 Toughness? With that vest you're nigh-high impossible to damage! :)
Nate (copied from above) : His shot just barely missing the baddie, Nate drops behind the crate for a little more recovery time.
Gavril : just curious, is that -2 to Notice because of your one eye? No wonder you don't use guns! :)
Next round
Gavril :
Nate :
John :
Bad guys :
Sheesh!
Tie breaking
Gavril :
Nate :
John :
So : Gavril, John, Nate, punks
John : 2 Bennies, 3? bullets
NOTES : Gavril, Nate, John, A, *C/1; 5 Bennies used
Holding the gun, Gavril pops up and starts firing into the air. "STOP THE FIGHT NOW OR YOU GET THE BULLETS IN ALL OF YOU, GO DOWN LIKE FRIEND, YOU PONKS!"
Of course, as soon as he's finished his threat, he drops the gun and ducks back into cover.
Heh... "ponks." :o)
Dayum, Nate, how'd you get a 7 Toughness?
Well it's Vigor/2 (d6/2=3) + 2, then add 2 for the vest. 7 doesn't really seem that impressive to me. It's only equal to a zombie, and a bodyguard is Toughness 10. Shrug.
With that vest you're nigh-high impossible to damage! :)
You say that like it's a bad thing. :op
MOCK BATTLE POST
Nate - so your *basic* Toughness is 5? I misinterpreted your PC notes! I thought your basic Toughness was 7, then add 2 or 4 for the vest.
So if your Toughness+Armor vs. bullets is 9...you are Shaken.
Sorry, that's the format Hero Lab spits out for SW. And I presume you meant "if your Toughness+Armor vs. bullets is 7"?
Whee.
MOCK BATTLE POST
Nate : no, the Kevlar vest is +2 in general, but +4 vs. bullets. AND it also negates up to 4 AP from the bullets. (Sheesh, I'd expect this many exceptions from PF! :)
John pops up and Holds.
More on the punks later.
John : 2 Bennies, 3? bullets
NOTES : Gavril, *Nate, John, A, *C/1; 5 Bennies used
I kind of like this - any thoughts?
(All of this is in addition to the usual extra 1d6 to damage from 1 raise)
If you get 2 raises on your Attack roll, pick one of : target goes prone, target can be pushed 1" in any direction
If you get 3 or more raises on your Attack roll, pick one of : +4 damage, attempt a disarm