PF2 reprint of this AP?

Is there any chance we will see this AP come back in PF2? With a modified mythic system that PF2 seems actually capable of handling?

As long as mythic stuff doesn't give out more bonuses and just more abilities and access to new ones, the characters could still feel incredible and not be rolling over demon lords 6 levels higher than them. My attempt to run this AP fell apart by the middle/end of book 3, but the last 3 books had some of the most exciting story ideas I had seen in a published adventure. Maybe if I had just not ever given out mythic power, or curbed it at tier 1 it would have still potentially functioned, but I think my players would have revolted knowing that the toys were there, but no one got to play with them.

This would be the best candidate for a remake with the new system

There was a lot of misreading of the rules in Mythic Adventures unfortunately that continues to this day. I recently had to explain to a new player that there was no swift action spell casting every round as many thought. They were trying to swift cast and then cast again with their standard action. Misreadings like this are more responsible for adventures falling apart than anything else.

A Paizo FAQ would have been nice. As it stands, Mythic Adventures is a nice gem for Pathfinder First Edition and so it shall remain for the time being.

Since Kingmaker was the first AP to get the video game and a PF2 reprint, I'd tentatively expect WotR to be the second one.

Since Kingmaker was the first AP to get the video game and a PF2 reprint, I'd tentatively expect WotR to be the second one.

I hope so!

Is there any chance we will see this AP come back in PF2? With a modified mythic system that PF2 seems actually capable of handling?

As long as mythic stuff doesn't give out more bonuses and just more abilities and access to new ones, the characters could still feel incredible and not be rolling over demon lords 6 levels higher than them. My attempt to run this AP fell apart by the middle/end of book 3, but the last 3 books had some of the most exciting story ideas I had seen in a published adventure. Maybe if I had just not ever given out mythic power, or curbed it at tier 1 it would have still potentially functioned, but I think my players would have revolted knowing that the toys were there, but no one got to play with them.

I don't think so.

Wrath of the Righteous was a story for PCs of high power dealing with high power threats. Presuming that there is at least some attempt to maintain that, the PCs will only be level 20 when attacking level 28-30 creatures, and level differences matter a great deal more in second edition.

Either you have to nerf the villains or you have write new mythic rules. I don't think the expected return on that investment would be worth it yet.

There was a lot of misreading of the rules in Mythic Adventures unfortunately that continues to this day. I recently had to explain to a new player that there was no swift action spell casting every round as many thought. They were trying to swift cast and then cast again with their standard action. Misreadings like this are more responsible for adventures falling apart than anything else.

A Paizo FAQ would have been nice. As it stands, Mythic Adventures is a nice gem for Pathfinder First Edition and so it shall remain for the time being.

I Agree so much

One definite advantage of doing WotR as a PF2 adventure is you could do it with higher than level 20 PCs. The 1e issue that the more you advance the more the math breaks is gone.

My problem with mythic adventures was never casters getting two spells off in a round, it was casters having access to every spell at any time and basically never running out of highest level spells by tier 3 or 4. The only challenges were other mythic casters and it was nuclear rocket tag to the extreme.

With PF2 bringing higher level spells into the interesting, useful and powerful, but not instant victory level of play, I think Mythic power that does more interesting and broad things than pure number boosting is possible and will be a lot of fun.

I started running this for PF2 last week. We aren't far enough into yet to have a good feel for it. I'll be replacing epic abilities with Boons of some kind, but I haven't got that far along yet.

I'll probably dig into some this weekend.

Rcoket tag is a problem for some GMs, regardless of Mythic rules. It's good to learn how to adjust your encounters if you think it will be a problem, that is unless you're in a situation where you can't adjust anything.

The "Math" doesn't break down. It's the same all the way through, You just don't like the way it adds up for a particular style of play. That's just high-level play unless you're playing a game with tighter math that thinks wizards should be able to hit things with pointy sticks while standing shoulder to shoulder with the best fighters in the land.

These outright proclamations of "broken" this or "rocket" that amount to problems in any game that an experienced GM learns to deal with. I don't agree with it as one of the Ten Commandments of RPGs. Sometimes you get the rocket and sometimes the rocket gets you.

Don't take my word for it. Here's a mouthy bag that will back up everything I say.

Rcoket tag is a problem for some GMs, regardless of Mythic rules. It's good to learn how to adjust your encounters if you think it will be a problem, that is unless you're in a situation where you can't adjust anything.

The "Math" doesn't break down. It's the same all the way through, You just don't like the way it adds up for a particular style of play. That's just high-level play unless you're playing a game with tighter math that thinks wizards should be able to hit things with pointy sticks while standing shoulder to shoulder with the best fighters in the land.

These outright proclamations of "broken" this or "rocket" that amount to problems in any game that an experienced GM learns to deal with. I don't agree with it as one of the Ten Commandments of RPGs. Sometimes you get the rocket and sometimes the rocket gets you.

Don't take my word for it. Here's a mouthy bag that will back up everything I say.

The math does break down eventually, mostly on saving throws. Especially if you did Epic levels (which is why we got Mythic instead). The biggest victim of the math from a combat perspective are the 3/4 BAB classes. Eventually you have to make the choice does the fighter not ever miss or does the rogue not get to hit.

But saving throws are the killer in high level play. Ref save on the casters and Will save on most of the fighter/rogue types.

Rcoket tag is a problem for some GMs, regardless of Mythic rules. It's good to learn how to adjust your encounters if you think it will be a problem, that is unless you're in a situation where you can't adjust anything.

The "Math" doesn't break down. It's the same all the way through, You just don't like the way it adds up for a particular style of play. That's just high-level play unless you're playing a game with tighter math that thinks wizards should be able to hit things with pointy sticks while standing shoulder to shoulder with the best fighters in the land.

These outright proclamations of "broken" this or "rocket" that amount to problems in any game that an experienced GM learns to deal with. I don't agree with it as one of the Ten Commandments of RPGs. Sometimes you get the rocket and sometimes the rocket gets you.

Don't take my word for it. Here's a mouthy bag that will back up everything I say.

Since you were kind enough to call me out and take a swipe at PF2, I'd take the opportunity to point out that in the final PF2 rules, untrained proficiency doesn't add level to +hit, so the only weapons Wizards are actually trained in are crossbows, daggers, staves and clubs - and even with those, their proficiency stays so far behind Fighters that the "shoulder to shoulder" scenario you describe never happens since Fighters kick-off as Experts in those weapons.

I know it's OT for this thread, but setting people right when they got their facts wrong is something we all should strive to!

PF2? Moi? I said no such thing. You must be projecting on me again.

Trying to gaslight really isn’t doing yourself any favours.

Don't worry, I'm immune to that. But he's outside the edit window now and I got him *exactly* where I wanted to, so thanks for playing along, as usual. *sigh* Challenges, real challenges, so hard to come by these days.

Rcoket tag is a problem for some GMs, regardless of Mythic rules. It's good to learn how to adjust your encounters if you think it will be a problem, that is unless you're in a situation where you can't adjust anything.

But adjusting encounters in PF1 with mythic rules was basically just a process of making everything up on the fly, bending DCs and giving out arbitrary amounts of additional hit points to allow even demon lords and ancient dragons the opportunity to act one time in combat before being slaughtered by 7 or 8 attacks from the super overcharged smiting paladin buffed to absurdity by mythic spells, if not destroyed directly by the casters in the first place.

Party mobility (to an inter-planner level) becomes so absurd, even when in the abyss, that they skip every encounter that is not a boss fight and thus it is always nova levels of scry and fry battles between mythic casters. It was exhausting to run and the books were nearly useless in directing you because the players were not bound by any mechanical rails at all. They could pretty much do what ever they wanted, when ever they wanted, fully by 11th level.

Pf2 creates much more predictable and manageable boundaries while still leaving a lot of room for the breadth of abilities that would make mythical play interesting. The action economy is much more under control and even when you had to adjust things on the fly, PF2 is much better for handling it. I think we will see mythic rules for PF2 sooner than later, because people like the idea of it, and this AP is so world defining to Golarion, but so difficult to GM, that it feels worth a second shot.

What Unicore said. The mythic "have a competent GM fix it" mantra in this case means dozens of hours of extra work on the top of the usual work-heavy PF1 prep and even then it all fell apart because most of the issues were so deep at the base of the mythic design.

WotR *kinda* worked if you handed out a grand total of 2 mythic ranks across the entire AP - I ran it so and was manageable. But the PF2 framework should work much better for mythic, as math doesn't go off the rails as crazily as it did in PF1.

So the idea would be to revert from mythic back to something more like 3rd ed's Epic rules, where it's just levels 21+?

Not in my mind. It would still be a 1 to 20 AP, but the mythic paths would be an add free archetype at some point that would be more equivalent to the power boost from running a dual class variant.

Sorry to be late to the party. My idea for a conversion from 1e to 2e would be to have the mythic oaths be archetypes using the free archetype rule for those archetype only. And with the difference you stick to one instead of the usual rule that you have to take two other feats before you can switch. Though I guess you could take an additional non-mythic archetype using your class levels/skill feats as normal.
An easy way to do it is to give access to appropriate class feats that are a few levels higher.
Then when you hit level 20 you gain you archetype as a class that has 10 levels with its own features. Also an extra proficiency level above legendary call mythical I guess.

Do note that would take a lot of time to design and type out. So it would take a company or people with a lot of time on their hands actually to make this. But you know, one can dream.

What Unicore said. The mythic "have a competent GM fix it" mantra in this case means dozens of hours of extra work on the top of the usual work-heavy PF1 prep and even then it all fell apart because most of the issues were so deep at the base of the mythic design.

WotR *kinda* worked if you handed out a grand total of 2 mythic ranks across the entire AP - I ran it so and was manageable. But the PF2 framework should work much better for mythic, as math doesn't go off the rails as crazily as it did in PF1.

Arise my Unthread minions!

It's simpler than that, by the way. I am redoing all of WotR for PF2 and stripping mythic out of it entirely and just rebalalancing the foes across the board for PF2.

Mythic was -- and is -- AWFUL. It was always so open to optimization abuse that it came pre-broken. Trying to dis it with Legendary Adventures options for Mythic sort of works, but the amount of effort that must be put into each mythic encounter, adjusted to specifically work alongside the mythic builds of the PCs is just not worth it.

It's awful. Let it be. The AP, once freed of this dross, is actually pretty good. Unlike PF2, PF2 plays much better at higher levels. So just rebalalance it for PF2 and call it done.

What Unicore said. The mythic "have a competent GM fix it" mantra in this case means dozens of hours of extra work on the top of the usual work-heavy PF1 prep and even then it all fell apart because most of the issues were so deep at the base of the mythic design.

WotR *kinda* worked if you handed out a grand total of 2 mythic ranks across the entire AP - I ran it so and was manageable. But the PF2 framework should work much better for mythic, as math doesn't go off the rails as crazily as it did in PF1.

Arise my Unthread minions!

It's simpler than that, by the way. I am redoing all of WotR for PF2 and stripping mythic out of it entirely and just rebalancing the foes across the board for PF2.

Mythic was -- and is -- AWFUL. It was always so open to optimization abuse that it came pre-broken. Trying to dis it with Legendary Adventures options for Mythic sort of works, but the amount of effort that must be put into each mythic encounter, adjusted to specifically work alongside the mythic builds of the PCs is just not worth it.

It's awful. Let it be. The AP, once freed of this dross, is actually pretty good. Unlike PF2, PF2 plays much better at higher levels. So just rebalance it for PF2 and call it done.

What Unicore said. The mythic "have a competent GM fix it" mantra in this case means dozens of hours of extra work on the top of the usual work-heavy PF1 prep and even then it all fell apart because most of the issues were so deep at the base of the mythic design.

WotR *kinda* worked if you handed out a grand total of 2 mythic ranks across the entire AP - I ran it so and was manageable. But the PF2 framework should work much better for mythic, as math doesn't go off the rails as crazily as it did in PF1.

Arise my Unthread minions!

It's simpler than that, by the way. I am redoing all of WotR for PF2 and stripping mythic out of it entirely and just rebalancing the foes across the board for PF2.

Mythic was -- and is -- AWFUL. It was always so open to optimization "abuse" (if just building a logical Mythic PC can be said to be "abuse") that it came pre-broken for our better enjoyment. Trying to fix it with Legendary Adventures options for Mythic sort of works, but the amount of effort that must be put into each mythic encounter, adjusted to work alongside the specific mythic builds of the group of PCs is just not worth it. At all.

It's awful. Let it be. The AP, once freed of this dross, is actually pretty good. Unlike PF1, PF2 plays much better at higher levels. So just rebalance it for PF2 and call it done.

Who cast mirror image on the thread?

Sure, they could simply not include mythic stuff, but I'm personally a sucker for that kind of thing, so if they had a way to add it in a balanced manner, I would absolutely love it.

Good news, Mythic will be in next year's War of Immortals book.