The Fourth Crusade

Game Master Desriden

Oh, did the Paizo iconics help anyone with their stats? I'm not going to be making crazy things to target the PCs. If I build an NPC, it will use the non heroic array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and 8). If I use an array equal to the PCs, then that bumps up the creature's CR.

Don't worry that I'm going to build everything on a 25 point buy. Things that get better stats will have a higher CR to reflect that, above the normal CR for their class and gear.

Yeah that's what I was thinking as well. Holy would seem to be pretty advantageous. It also possesses the ability to overcome DR requiring good.

I'm tempted to go with holy. The only issue is, I can only go up to +4 with the amulet, so I'm limited. Should I go with +1 amulet with guided + holy? Or should I go with +3 amulet with just guided?

I'm torn. More damage one way, but more difficult to hit. Less damage the latter way, but a better chance of hitting. (And remember, my offense isn't that good to begin with.)

Thoughts/Opinions?

Oh, to those who wish to be ninjas, don't forget about this weapon:

Personally, I always get my weapons up to +5 before I worry about anything else. Spells can get you extra qualities, either from the group's caster or a summoned creature. You need to be level 20 to make a weapon +5 via a spell.

Plus I tend to roll low in real life. On these forums, I've had characters roll under 7 for a week straight. I've also had other characters crit three times in a row. These dice rollers are truly random.

Wow! where to begin? a guy sleeps for 4.5 hours and finds like 16 very informative posts. sweet!

@ TCG - thanks for the spell ability bro. I wont have time till tomorrow to really check it out but highly appreciated.

@ Javell - 1st, youre hilarious. 2nd, very impressive AC on that monk. And man, if some demon lord can still hit you with that then I'd be toast but looking at some of them in the bestiary (just a brief glance so far mind you) they'd never, ever hit you.

@ All - I'm planning on making at least my main weapon holy. Mostly because I'm going for demon hunter as a background flavor (see Treerazer's Bane plus how I tie in with TCG's background, TBD) which will fit in perfectly. I'm not sure I understand why a +5 weapon would be better. It seems like its almost a necessity to defeat the typical demon DR. Otherwise unless im flanking I wont crack that DR 10.

On the subject of telepathic bond. It looks as if it can be dispelled, right?

And as far as that goes, if a creature cast dispel magic at you, would it automatically dispel that spell? Or would they have to target it specifically?

Furthermore, say they don't know about the spell being active, is that even pertinent? Is it necessary to know that a spell is there for it to be dispelled?

Sorry about all the questions. Just trying to cover all the bases, if possible.

As with all permanency effects, yes it can be dispelled. However it'll most likely be the result of a targeted dispel magic effect.

I have a magic longsword that I carry. I call it "the hand of god" (working title). It's a Sword of the planes (+4 vs demone/devils etc) and I added the Holy and Demon bane properties. I just saw the Guided property and I do believe I will be investing in that ASAP

Oh, did the Paizo iconics help anyone with their stats? I'm not going to be making crazy things to target the PCs. If I build an NPC, it will use the non heroic array (13, 12, 11, 10, 9 and 8). If I use an array equal to the PCs, then that bumps up the creature's CR.

Don't worry that I'm going to build everything on a 25 point buy. Things that get better stats will have a higher CR to reflect that, above the normal CR for their class and gear.

I actually did appreciate you posting the Iconics, because I had never seen their stats. I do feel it gave me an appreciation of the baseline, and it makes me more satisfied with my character.

Yeah that's what I was thinking as well. Holy would seem to be pretty advantageous. It also possesses the ability to overcome DR requiring good.

I'm tempted to go with holy. The only issue is, I can only go up to +4 with the amulet, so I'm limited. Should I go with +1 amulet with guided + holy? Or should I go with +3 amulet with just guided?

I'm torn. More damage one way, but more difficult to hit. Less damage the latter way, but a better chance of hitting. (And remember, my offense isn't that good to begin with.)

Thoughts/Opinions?

Well, with an amulet, you don't need a +1, so you could actually make a Holy, Demon Bane, Guided amulet. To be honest, probably the best way to go from there is to get a 20th level potion of Greater magic fang (3000 gp) and ask the alchemist to make you a potion of alchemical allocation every day so you can pump yourself up to a +5 to hit and damage, which should overcome DR. The duration is 20 hours a day, and the amulet would stack with this.

I'm open to suggestions on my spell list / sheet if anyone has any input.

I appreciated the iconics as well. I actually felt alot better about my ninja after checking the rogue.

I'll get a good look at those spells tomorrow.

Yea, the Guided property is a given for me as well, which is hella nice and means I don't need to boost Str any.

What's sweet about Inquisitor is that I can deal with DR on my own, without needing to go crazy on weapon enhancements. Hello Judgement of Smiting.

I'm open to suggestions on my spell list / sheet if anyone has any input.

Dismissal is a 5th level spell for Wizards, and a 4th for clerics. You have it as a 4th level spell on both lists.

Otherwise it looks pretty good. You can see what works with what we have, and go from there. Being a Wizard/Cleric can only help with customization.

TGC, How does your timeless dimension interact with crafting? Suppose someone got a crafting cohort and sent the cohort there to craft things. Would they be able to craft items pretty much instantly for us here on the Prime Material? If so, we should get one.

TGC, How does your timeless dimension interact with crafting? Suppose someone got a crafting cohort and sent the cohort there to craft things. Would they be able to craft items pretty much instantly for us here on the Prime Material? If so, we should get one.

Timeless does not mean no time passes. It's odd like that. If you spend 5 minutes on the demiplane 5 minutes still pass on the prime material. As it stands it has no effect on crafting time.

However, during those 5 minutes (or 500 years) you will not have to eat, drink, sleep, etc and you will not age. However, it is recommended that you still do those things on a regular basis if you have any intention of ever leaving the plane because when you leave time will catch up with you. For example if you spend 500 years on the plane youre body will remain the same age, but when you go to the prime you'll age rapidly until you've made up for those years. The exact nature of this is up to the DM, but I picture it about like the scene in Indiana Jones where the guy drank from the wrong cup in Crusade.

Now, in my plane once a spell with a duration longer than instant it's effectively permanent until you leave the plane. Hence all the fun traps etc I have running. If you cast Summon Monster 1 to summon a fiendish dire rat. That dire rat is stuck (bound by the rules of Summon monster I) until you release it, it's destroyed,

Meaning if you want "instant crafting" your crafter and all the necessary supplies and equiptment are in the plane and he can cast Timestop on himself then that'll work. In that case he has all the time in the world to craft his item, though everything else ceases to flow. Time is relative after all.

There are other ways I could have manipulated time, but that's my favorite.

From GMG:
Timeless : On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished. How the timeless trait affects certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane. The danger of a timeless plane is that once an individual leaves such a plane for one where time flows normally, conditions such as hunger and aging occur retroactively. If a plane is timeless with respect to magic, any spell cast with a noninstantaneous duration is permanent until dispelled.it leaves the plane somehow, or the plane is destroyed.

P.S. My character will explain this to your character(s), or any other topic you happen to show interest, in grand detail as he is a loremaster and scholar. ;-)

Edit: As it is a custom made plane Healing does occur normally while there, but basically everything else is timeless.

Sparel Radtymah wrote:

I'm open to suggestions on my spell list / sheet if anyone has any input.

Dismissal is a 5th level spell for Wizards, and a 4th for clerics. You have it as a 4th level spell on both lists.

Otherwise it looks pretty good. You can see what works with what we have, and go from there. Being a Wizard/Cleric can only help with customization.

Fixed, TY.

Sounds cool. I'll definitely be wanting a clone stashed away on that demiplane.

Sounds like fun. Maybe someday I will make my own demiplane...

Sounds like fun. Maybe someday I will make my own demiplane...

Give me a few levels and I'll make a staff for you. ;-)

Well, with an amulet, you don't need a +1, so you could actually make a Holy, Demon Bane, Guided amulet. To be honest, probably the best way to go from there is to get a 20th level potion of Greater magic fang (3000 gp) and ask the alchemist to make you a potion of alchemical allocation every day so you can pump yourself up to a +5 to hit and damage, which should overcome DR. The duration is 20 hours a day, and the amulet would stack with this.

Okay, just to be clear. What you're telling me is, that I purchase a Greater magic fang potion +5. Then, our friendly neighborhood alchemist whips up aforementioned concoction, which then allows me to use the same potion over and over once every day? The same potion? Am I reading this right? Or not?

It appears as though the alchemist can drink the potion, then give it to somoeone else. Effectively two uses of the same potion. So if you got a new alchemical allocation potion every day you could reuse the same potion every day.

It would be Full of backwash after a week and kinda nasty, but maybe not. It is magic after all.

That seems like the alchemist can resume a potion over and over. How does it help someone else? Perhaps I'm missing a step here ...

Edit: are you planning to give the monk an infusion of the effect each day, so he can do that himself? Because that would work just fine.

Edit: are you planning to give the monk an infusion of the effect each day, so he can do that himself? Because that would work just fine.

THat was my assumption.

That requires a feat, and I'm not sure the alchemist has it.

That requires a feat, and I'm not sure the alchemist has it.

According to his character page, he is going to have it from level 4. I don't blame him. With it he can hand out Heal and Restoration and Breath of Life extracts for anyone else to carry. Comes in handy sometimes.

I thought he only had the ability to do that with healing spells. Who is mostly done with his or her sheets so I can take a look?

My sheet is mostly done. Peruse at your leisure.

"My sheet is done, O honorable Arbiter. I trust you will find my papers in order. I find these things disagreeable, but will capitulate for the good of the community"

Oterisk, you didn't include your armor shadow ability bonus to your Stealth.

When I saw how many arrows you could shoot a round, I'm like; "Dannnnng! I hope he has like a 1000 arrows!" Sure enough, you were pretty close. :)

Hey Tiny, how about Fly?

And I think I will go with telepathic bond. That would be interesting, I think. That would be between Sparel and Darnak, right? Or can you delegate whoever you want?

Oterisk, you didn't include your armor shadow ability bonus to your Stealth.

When I saw how many arrows you could shoot a round, I'm like; "Dannnnng! I hope he has like a 1000 arrows!" Sure enough, you were pretty close. :)

Thanks for the catch, man. (its fixed now)

"My sheet is done, O honorable Arbiter. I trust you will find my papers in order. I find these things disagreeable, but will capitulate for the good of the community"

You appear to have a stat boosting item that gives different bonuses to different stats. I have never seen that and know of no rules that allow that. What book did the belt come from?

Edit: Just noticed your hat does the same thing.

What he did was this:

Say you took a +6 Str belt which is 36,000g

Then you add a +2 to Dex belt which would be 6,000g

He basically did what we spoke on about buying an item, and then adding another item onto it. He multiplied the cost of the second item (the dex belt, which is cheaper) by 1.5, seeing how it's nomally 4,000g by itself.

It just seems strange because the numbers are different. I've never seen them different either. We're so use to seeing them all the same.

I've got absolutely no idea if it's mandatory they all have to be the same or not.

Interesting, though, to say the least.

Since the rules actually include specific items for sale that detail how adding multiple bonuses to one item works, I'm not sure I like the idea of doing it differently just to max out a certain stat without paying the normal cost.

Those rules exist to cover making items that aren't already in the book. The item we're talking about is in the book. I'll have to see if there are other examples of this.

OK, I just finished looking over how the math would work for those items and I don't have a problem with it. It's weird looking and seems a bit cheesy, but there's nothing in the rules against it.

I've never had it be an issue before. When I was crafting for my party I would add a bonus to a stat when I got the chance, if I didn't have the time or money to add everything, not everything got added in. Of course I have never done PFS or PBP before either. I've heard talk of it being legal during some of the reading I have done on the forums, but if you don't like it it isn't necessary.

I can get the Intelligence boost through an Ioun Stone, I can get Con bonuses the same way, although they will be more expensive. I might have to cut back on the Con bonus to make sure it all works, but what is a little bonus here or there. It does make it harder to craft up in the future, but if I am going to have to trade in magical items for better magical items, as we don't really have a crafter, how I get my bonuses isn't quite as important.

I also understand that during a war, one doesn't always have optimized equipment, so it stands to reason that not everything I want I will have. Our normal GM at home does this a bunch when he does a short adventure. I remember doing it for when we tackled Tomb of Horrors. (I lost 5 characters in there, he had us bring six each!)

Akor is coming along nicely. Lots to still do, but much is already figured out on paper or in me headspace, just not on profile yet, lol.

Hey Arbiter, if we get +8 bracers, nothing more can be added, like at all, correct? Like when you mentioned things that cost money can be added. It has to be +7 for that to happen, right?

Once you have a +8 bonus on the bracers, you can no longer add AC or other armor qualities that are measured in bonuses (such as fortification).

However, my house rule about allowing things that only cost money doesn't affect that. You could have +8 bracers of armor and add shadow to them just fine.

I've never had it be an issue before. When I was crafting for my party I would add a bonus to a stat when I got the chance, if I didn't have the time or money to add everything, not everything got added in. Of course I have never done PFS or PBP before either. I've heard talk of it being legal during some of the reading I have done on the forums, but if you don't like it it isn't necessary.

I can get the Intelligence boost through an Ioun Stone, I can get Con bonuses the same way, although they will be more expensive. I might have to cut back on the Con bonus to make sure it all works, but what is a little bonus here or there. It does make it harder to craft up in the future, but if I am going to have to trade in magical items for better magical items, as we don't really have a crafter, how I get my bonuses isn't quite as important.

I also understand that during a war, one doesn't always have optimized equipment, so it stands to reason that not everything I want I will have. Our normal GM at home does this a bunch when he does a short adventure. I remember doing it for when we tackled Tomb of Horrors. (I lost 5 characters in there, he had us bring six each!)

I don't have a problem with it now. I was a little surprised to see it since I've never seen anyone do that before.

"My sheet is done, O honorable Arbiter. I trust you will find my papers in order. I find these things disagreeable, but will capitulate for the good of the community"

I have a couple of questions, too. There's no real benefit to having Profession: Soldier, especially with that many ranks. And you seem to be paying for an Int bonus to get it (since you could spend the other points on stealth and save money).

Also, you have a Circlet of Persuasion and no Charisma skills listed. Did you mean to do that? If you did it just to get a positive modifier to untrained Charisma skills, that's fine. I just want to make sure you meant to do so.

DM-Arbiter - Im hoping to be finished this evening.

@ All - I'm not sure I understand why a +5 weapon would be better than Holy for weapon qualities. It seems like its almost a necessity to defeat the typical demon DR. Otherwise unless Im flanking I wont crack that DR 10/Good.

I have a couple of questions, too. There's no real benefit to having Profession: Soldier, especially with that many ranks. And you seem to be paying for an Int bonus to get it (since you could spend the other points on stealth and save money).

Also, you have a Circlet of Persuasion and no Charisma skills listed. Did you mean to do that? If you did it just to get a positive modifier to untrained Charisma skills, that's fine. I just want to make sure you meant to do so.

Thanks for the audit, I had been tweaking it so much I guess I missed a couple things. I have made the changes you requested.

I took Profession: Soldier because it made sense for my character and for my play style. He is a little dim, but he understands the necessity for for tactics and strategy. I love tactics and strategy, as this is a bit of a strategic game, especially at this level. I wanted to be able to bring my full game to the table and feel justified in doing so. The Profession: Soldier does that to show that he has been up here crusading a long time and had an interest in these things. I suppose I could adjust and put half stats in this and bump another skill or two, I will think about it.

That and I am not a huge fan of dumping stats for certain characters. Some I seem to be just fine with, but this one seems to me to be a man who would shore up his weaknesses so they wouldn't be liabilities. The Circlet does that quite nicely, so he is a little over the average when it comes to personal communication.

Oterisk, you didn't include your armor shadow ability bonus to your Stealth.

When I saw how many arrows you could shoot a round, I'm like; "Dannnnng! I hope he has like a 1000 arrows!" Sure enough, you were pretty close. :)

Hey Tiny, how about Fly?

And I think I will go with telepathic bond. That would be interesting, I think. That would be between Sparel and Darnak, right? Or can you delegate whoever you want?

The bond can be between whomever you want and doesn't have to be with me. They just have to be present at the time of casting.

Fly is good, but it's specifically for combat. If It's needed I can channel it via my ring power, but at this level I assume everyone has some way to not plummet to their untimely death. If not you may want to reallocate your resources to include a ring of feather fall.

So I'm contmplating What creature to have as my truename feat.

A planetar - Definitely the front runner.

An 18 HD unfettered Ediliion (essentially build your own outsider)
Bythos Aeon

A star Archon - Techincally 19 HD, but I was thinking of putting a negative template on it to reduce it by one HD.

Thoughts?

I would go with the Planetar. It seems to be the best fit, and it's casting potential is really nice. It might even work better if you can get a HD added to it somehow.

It's much easier to add a HD to a creature than take one away. I don't actually know of a template that lowers HD; usually a template lowers CR by reducing stas.

Javell DeLeon wrote:

Oterisk, you didn't include your armor shadow ability bonus to your Stealth.

When I saw how many arrows you could shoot a round, I'm like; "Dannnnng! I hope he has like a 1000 arrows!" Sure enough, you were pretty close. :)

Hey Tiny, how about Fly?

And I think I will go with telepathic bond. That would be interesting, I think. That would be between Sparel and Darnak, right? Or can you delegate whoever you want?

The bond can be between whomever you want and doesn't have to be with me. They just have to be present at the time of casting.

Fly is good, but it's specifically for combat. If It's needed I can channel it via my ring power, but at this level I assume everyone has some way to not plummet to their untimely death. If not you may want to reallocate your resources to include a ring of feather fall.

Gotcha.

Per Fly: That's cool, I was just throwing it out there. And yeah, I got falling to my death covered. ;)

DM-Arbiter - Im hoping to be finished this evening.

@ All - I'm not sure I understand why a +5 weapon would be better than Holy for weapon qualities. It seems like its almost a necessity to defeat the typical demon DR. Otherwise unless Im flanking I wont crack that DR 10/Good.

I think investing in Holy is a good idea. ESPECIALLY to get past that DR/good business. I say go for it. I intially wasn't going to, but getting past DR/good is quite the handy.

I am pretty sure that a +3 Holy Weapon is considered a +5 weapon. It is what it costs and not what the number says that matters. Otherwise, there would be no getting over Epic DR.

DM-Arbiter - Im hoping to be finished this evening.

@ All - I'm not sure I understand why a +5 weapon would be better than Holy for weapon qualities. It seems like its almost a necessity to defeat the typical demon DR. Otherwise unless Im flanking I wont crack that DR 10/Good.

Holy is the best way to get past DR 10/Good. If you hit really hard (say, two-handed fighter), than the +5 is better because a miss means no damage. A hit means less damage, and a fighter can take feats to ignore DR.

If you do lots of attacks that do smaller amounts of damage, than DR suddenly is a much bigger deal. Also, getting around DR is a level 2 spell (align weapon), while getting a +5 to hit and damage via a spell requires a 20th level caster.

All that said, it probably will be better for everyone who relies on weapon damage to have either a holy weapon or easy access to align weapon.

Stiehl9s here -

@ Javell & Gm - thanks, thats kinda what I was thinking but also didnt think it was necessary for both of my weapons. That would seem overkill especially since GM said we wouldnt just be facing demons.

@ GM_Arbiter - Im ready for a perusal/checking.