The Faceless GM's Irrisen: The Realm of Winter Campaign (Inactive)

Game Master kamenhero25

@Eirikr: I think it was stated that Izoze if 15 ft. up ;)

Fifteen feet and she's actually stunned on a tree branch, not enough to get cover or anything though.

So do we want to move on now? And do we have rations or do we need Eirikr to scavenge?

Yes. We set up camp and then skip to the next day, barring inconveniences.

We still have 12 rations (we consumed 6 on our way to the lodge, 7 if we count Ashen), plus any that were left over from our previous foray, so we're good for the time being. Though anything Eirikr can forage will help extend our buffer before we're forced to live off the land.

I'm ready to move on if the others are too. Tiferet would volunteer for the second watch, and use it to perform her devotion.

I'm fine to move on if people are ready. Same as always, two more say they're good and I'll go for it.

Inire is always ready! :o

I'm ready as well

I stand corrected, we don't quite have the over-abundance of bedrolls I thought we had. We actually lack one. This is a rundown of the party's more mundane belongings, at least according to the character sheets:

Blankets: 6 (bought in Heldren) + 1 (Tiferet) + 1 (Morgraine) = 8
Bedrolls: 1 (bought in Heldren) + 1 (Nathara) + 1 (Tiferet) + 1 (Morgraine) + 1 (salvaged from camp) = 5
Compass: 1 (bought in Heldren) + 1 (Eirikr)  = 2
Large Tent: 1 (bought in Heldren)
Tent: 1 (salvaged from camp)
Furs: 4 (bought in Heldren) + 1 (Eirikr)  = 5
Rations: 18 (bought in Heldren) + 4 (Nathara) + 2 (Tiferet) + 7 (Morgraine) + ? (salvaged from camp) - 6 (eaten on the way to the lodge) = 25 + 'several'
Bear Traps: 3 (salvaged from camp)

Please correct me if you spot something that looks wrong or simply not up-to-date ;)

I think that's close. I'd need to go double check Nathara's purchase list though and I'm about to head to bed. There was five days worth of rations in the man's pack.

Well, I bought one Bedroll because I thought that Inire was the the only one who did not have one.

Yeah, me too. Thence the supposed "over-abundance" which was actually a shortage – though it makes sense for someone like Eirikr to have been sleeping with Ashen on the cold, hard ground for most of his wandering.

Guess what has two thumbs and just realized Inire will get immunity to Flat Footed next level!? This guy.

I'm so excited for Inire's level-ups! (Or is that Levels-up? Like Fathers-in-Law?)

That nice feeling when you knew what you would find beyond the link even before you clicked on it :)

Next level you also get DEX to damage right? It's when Inire's build really begins to shine.

Speaking of which, I have to think about which rage power to add to Tiferet's raging song. Since its benefits are shared, I'd like your input on the matter.

Personally, I was thinking about the Spirit Totem line. Everyone gets one extra attack per round for 1d4+3 damage, made at +4 attack bonus. Beast Totem also seemed nice, though it reaps its major benefit only at level 10 (namely, pounce), with the other bonus not being very useful early on.

(For what is worth, I'm inclined to go with level-ups, as I believe the expression started out as a phrasal verb which then got turned into a noun – like screw-ups. Just a grammarian point of view, since I don't really have a 'gut feeling' associated to either).

Spirit Totem is really cool. I'd thought about taking it on a normal barbarian or bloodrager. Skald throwing spirits everywhere is just cool. Also, thematically appropriate with an 'guardian ancestors' vibe.

Beast Totem, Lesser is excellent for Eirikr and Ashen, who gain full attacks with natural weapons. Which will outpace their common options for several levels to come. I believe Beast Totem's Natural Armor would stack with ABP, since it's not an enhancement bonus. Thus making us lose less AC when we take your song (a huge plus that makes us want to take it, when we aren't casting, or tumbling, or what have you.) The main argument against this is that other totems are cool, too.

Linnorm Death Curses are also worth mentioning. When one of us goes unconscious, it sucks to be the guy who did it. This might be more thematically appropriate once we've actually killed a Linnorm (which we probably should, if one of us is ever gonna be nobility!)

Night Vision deserves special mention, because less than half of the party has Darkvision, and 'Blinded' is a terrible affliction that accepting a raging song can overcome.

Celestial Totem's line is fitting and very cool. Especially if we assume a lot of the most dangerous foes are going to be evil casters. A party with ~50% shot of not having a negative spell land, that gains bonuses to healing, and purges invisibility from evil enemies is amazingly good.

Dragon Totem gets better with time, and can be really powerful (especially with your trait, once you have resilience). The main question is 'how does DT: Wings work for a skald's allies?'

Eirikr will also thank you later if you take Internal Fortitude, methinks.

I'm also fairly certain I didn't help very much.

Side note: With great research comes great knowledge of the ability to use Acrobatics while raging. (I know, being able to jump while raging makes sense. But being able to tumble... doesn't make nearly as much sense).

You know, far from being unhelpful, you actually sold me on Celestial Totem. Thematically fitting, and coupled with Path of Glory and Greater Skald's Vigour... it means healing every party member 23 hps/round at 16th level. 27 if using the Greater version. Plus all the other goodies.

Spirit Totem and Death Curses are also very good (and it pains me having to choose between the former and Celestial Totem), mostly because they rely on Tiferet's CHA bonus... which is considerably higher than your average Barbarian's.

That, and the fact that you're force multiplying based on the number of allies. It's like healing hex, but 'everything gets bludgeoned to death by swirly angry wisps*). Skald is really interesting because there are so many options to go with, that are really, really solid compared to normal barbarian.

*What your spirits actually look like may vary. I like to think of them as little faeries yelling 'Hey! Listen!'

That, and the fact that you're force multiplying based on the number of allies. It's like healing hex, but 'everything gets bludgeoned to death by swirly angry wisps*). Skald is really interesting because there are so many options to go with, that are really, really solid compared to normal barbarian.

Indeed. Many options really scale quadratically when transferred from Barbarians to Skalds: # allies X CHA bonus.

*What your spirits actually look like may vary. I like to think of them as little faeries yelling 'Hey! Listen!'

That would be cruel even against the most depraved Jadwigas.

How I wished I could hack that annoying know-it-all glorified pest.

If you take celestial I'd suggest a reflavored version of godless healing if DM will allow as a move action you can heal 1d8+level daily

Godless Healing is a very specific setting related feat connected to Rahadoum. Additionally, it's a supernatural effect, not a spell, so it doesn't work with the lesser celestial totem's power anyway.

I think Navi would have been fine, if you could 'disable tutorial messages' in the game. I don't want her to ask me to remember to call my mom Saria every 30 seconds.

Darksiders 2 hit that sweet spot for 'I need help' and 'stay out of my way.'

Well, to be fair, Eve specified it would take 'a reflavoured version' of the spell for it to work... Other than that, I'd seriously consider it if I were a barbarian, that is if

@Tiferet Sorry I just saw Taru mention the celestial totem didn't know it was different from skald and barb

Celestial totem has a note for nonspells

"in the case of non-spell healing effects (such as channeled energy or lay on hands), she heals a number of additional points equal to the class level of the character performing the magical healing."

but it does still say magical healing so I don't know if supernatural discredits that

Supernatural is beaten by antimagic field. It can't be dispelled. Regardless, they're called out as magical by the su text. :)

Well, to be fair, Eve specified it would take 'a reflavoured version' of the spell feat for it to work...

Sorry, brain fart. As Inire pointed out, not only does Celestial Totem work just as well for a Skald as it does for a Barb, but it would indeed synergize with Godless Healing no problem.

What I meant is that it would probably be a stronger choice for a Barb rather than a Skald, since the former lacks the ability to heal herself and, being a more 'focused' character, is able to spare a feat every now and then. To a Skald, it would be equivalent to an extra CLW or CMW per day (though one which only requires a move action and doesn't trigger any AoO, which is admittedly very good). Still, compare to Path of Glory which, after being cast, would heal everyone standing in its area of effect 1 + Tiferet's level hps/round for free.

Having both would obviously be even better, though I envision Tiferet slowly shifting from a heavy-hitter to more of a support role as soon as Nathara and Inire's builds start to take off, so rather about healing others than healing herself.

(There's also the reflavouring point, which neither I nor – I think – tFlGM are big fans of. I feel that fluff and crunch go hand-in-hand in crafting a setting, and every little disconnection you make between the two somewhat cheapens your world.)

I was also thinking about picking up Initimidating Glare sooner or later. The shaken condition is a good debuff, especially since it allows no saving throws or magic resistance, and Tiferet's high CHA bonus tends to make the check quite trivial (usually).

I'm more of a mind that reshaping it is okay, so long as it still makes sense. Like, letting a barbarian with Superstitious take Godless Healing just makes sense - as long as he plays that. He's able to mend his own wounds, but don't you dare touch him with your glowy hands.

Similarly, the Blackjacket Fighter archetype would do -very- well for simulating any mercenary group. In fact, I thought about how great it would be to have a PC start the game as a 'Blackjacket', and one of his main goals be to spread his own influence to his allies over time. Inducting them into his Mercenary group, and as a result, being able to share tricks he knows with them - provided they took the requisite training courses to be able to quickly understand what's going on (aka, took a level of Blackjacket Fighter).

In that case, though, it also makes sense because it's obviously not just a 'power play'. If you were in Druman, being a Druman Blackjacket is powerful. If you're in the Stolen Lands, it's just an opportunity for story. And as long as you can create an interesting story with it, I don't mind if it doesn't work that well for the base fluff, so long as the fluff can make sense with the mechanics. :)

I've incorporated one of those dolls in one of my background stories. For Calwen Snownpaw, whom I let appear in as a side character in Nathara's story and for whom I invented the Order of the White Rose, actually.

Calwen Snowpaw.pdf

@Inire: I'm kind of a different mind here, though it mostly boils down to a matter of different tastes in the end. What I like about RPGs is that the 'story' emerges through the interaction between your character (over whom you have full control) and the setting that surrounds him – interaction which is made possible by its underlying mechanics, both crunch-wise and fluff-wise.

When I stat a character up, I usually like finding the right mechanics to give flesh to a concept, and then watch as the attached flavour coalesces into a background and prompts me to subtly modify my original idea, and so on. Conversely, when writing a story I have absolute power over both my characters and whatever surrounds or interacts with them.

Obviously, if you go homebrew, reflavouring is the smart thing to do and is akin to not re-inventing the wheel. The thing I like about pre-established settings, though, is that they take agency away from me and force me to build my story around them.

It's kind of like how writing 'I leap 20 ft. in the air, behead the dragon and save the princess' is satisfying, but actually creating a character who's able to do these things and have the luck to roll high enough even more so.

TL;DR sometimes I like to have hard constraints around which to build my stories, and role-playing in pre-established settings with their fluff-attached mechanics allows me to do just that.

Sure. I agree entirely with hard constraints at times, but there are also instances in which something is very interesting, but not strictly within the book. I like adjusting things to keep people who've been playing for decades on their toes (like handing what amounts to a wolf, with two claws instead of a bite as an enemy).

Along those same lines, while I agree a character should be a slave to the setting, I believe the setting should at least give nods to the player. I absolutely love making Paragons of an area just as much as a Rogue of the same area. I love building the world into the background of my characters and the like. You can see that I did quite a bit of this with Inire.

But I also think that really interesting concepts that aren't being chosen strictly for power should take precedence via Rule of Cool. I'm not saying give a spelldancing magus access to a holy avenger because she worships Sarenrae (though giving her a sun blade is fricking awesome), but allowing an elven tiefling to be a spelldancer is absolutely fantastically reasonable.

Not requiring an aasimar to have watched his great nephews die before he was an adult is another example of where things should be fudged for the sake of a player. (Though, this has been altered to be a shorter lifespan. Even still, most people allow either end of the spectrum. Personally, I like the idea of aasimar and tiefling aging rapidly until adulthood, and then resting comfortably there for a long, long time before reaching middle-aged.)

Of course. At the risk of sounding trite, I'll say that a sapient mix of the two attitudes (hard constraints vs. playing with pre-existing rules for coolness' sake) is the wisest choice.

Indeed, all of your examples fit perfectly into this pattern. I wouldn't call any of them 'reflavouring', though, but rather expanding on a pre-established framework to better accommodate a particular game's needs. Giving a tiefling who grew up in an elven context access to an elven archetype absolutely makes sense. With reflavouring I would mean allowing an orc with no ties to elven culture whatsoever to take it while re-naming it... say... eldritch slayer or something like that.

In the same spirit, I was considering giving Tiferet the 'Ulfen Weapon Training' trait (if the GM allows it, of course) via the Additional Traits feat even though she, as an Aasimar, wouldn't technically qualify. I still wouldn't pick Community Minded as it's a specifically Rahadoumi regional trait (what comes that they've got the best options?).

(As for Aasimar age, I wholeheartedly agree – but perhaps we've already talked about it? Or it was a different game, I don't quite remember... Generally speaking, I don't like the idea of races taking centuries to get to the level of your average 18 year old human, but with Aasimar being often born among human communities, the idea of them having to see 3 generations grow up and die before they're able to look after themselves is particularly ludicrous. Not to mention who's going to take care of them in the meantime once their human parents are long dead?)

Having some of the best traits and abilities really fits for the area. They don't have anyone to watch their backs. They have to be better than the rest of the world. ;)

Also, yes, with that definition, it doesn't work so well. Letting anyone take the halfling helpful removes the reason for the non-halfling helpful trait.

One example that came up a little late that sort of bent things a bit much was for my Ranger. At the last second, someone pointed out the Demonslayer archetype... which is perfect for a Wrath of the Righteous game (even though I really wanted to keep endurance, and have since taken it as an actual feat). A few weeks later, I found out it was actually a mostly elven archetype. So we added an elven trainer to her background, though it still feels a little bad. (But it also feels a lot awesome).

I brought it up partially because you guys had already discussed it with Faceless, that with the variance it was just obvious that there should be variance. I may have been involved, but don't remember. :) I tried to keep a lot of the things I pointed out as things that had occurred in this game to make it easy reference for all. :)

There's definitely a line there. I think my line is a little more generous than the mean, but there are also a lot of people with really generous lines out there. I couldn't ever play RAW, though. Ever.

First: Ulfen Weapon Training is fine. You're an Ulfen Aasimar after all, so you counting as both for the purpose of mechanics makes sense. Hell, you took the racial trait to make yourself a humanoid specifically for that purpose.

On the concept of altering things or reflavoring them, I feel that it's best to decide on a case-by-case basis. That's why I try to make a judgment call on each feat or trait or whatever based on the situation. For example, I'd rather not reflavor Godless Healing because it has a very specific place in the setting: it's a power drawn from pure faith in mankind in the absence of the divine. It's literally human willpower overcoming outside interference, even fate, to restore lost vitality. That's kind of a very specific power from a very specific part of the world.

Fun fact, the reason the Demonslayer archetype is almost exclusively elven is because it's actually called the Tanglebriar Demonslayer. It's a combat style created by the elves of Kyonin who fight in the Tanglebriar. However, it makes perfect sense that other places with major demon invasions (like the Worldwound or even the Mwangi Expanse in some places) would develop similar tactics, so it's fair to assume that they could use it as well.

Yup. It's also stated in the guides regarding Kyonin that many of the Demonhunters go to the worldwound to learn new tricks and share old ones. :)

One thing I tend to follow is Errata... unless it's ridiculous. Like changing my Magus's choices in feats when Precise Strike stopped working for Magi. It was kind of bonkers.

But similarly, the same DM let me use Fencing Grace for an Estoc. Which is pretty darn cool.

So I guess pretending to be its grandma didn't work?

You can't tell. It has no facial expressions. It also hasn't had an action since you tried to bluff.

Oh, that makes sense. Sorry, I hope that didn't come off as pushy

You sound like me, Eirikr. Ask a simple question, then calculate eleven times whether or not you sounded like a jerk? :)

Yup, pretty much. I try to rp characters more forward than I am too

I'm all over the place for mine. The only thing I've found I don't do well is 'quiet'. If my characters aren't active (and interactive)... games tend to suffer. It's made me a busybody. :)

I'm also significantly less... secure playing male characters. I always feel like I'm 50% more of a jerk when I play a male character...

You're not. I found it very amusing, I just hasn't really had time to do anything.

Admittedly, more forward than me IRL is a pretty broad range. If I played closer to my rl personality I'd probably end up to much a wallflower to contribute.

@Inire: with that said, I believe we're pretty much on the same line. Having a Demon Hunter learning a particular style of combat which was originally developed to counter a similar menace under the tutelage of one of its practitioners makes all the sense in the world; indeed, this a perfect example of taking a constraint into account and building around it rather than outright ignoring it.

The helpful trait is also another nice example. Being a halfling gives you that extra oomph because you're naturally part of a race who would rather help discreetly than lead from the front-lines. It's a nice distinctive trait that makes the setting more varied; and conversely, if everyone had access to a particular peculiarity, then it wouldn't be a peculiarity at all, and your world might have just gotten a little bit blander.

(Also, but you probably know that already, one should be careful when fishing for options on d20pfsrd.com, since every Golarion-specific lore gets cut out from descriptions due to copyright reasons, unlike the Archives of Nethys. For instance, the Iroran Paladin becomes the Enlighted Paladin; without its attached flavour, it would be possible to take this archetype in conjunction with Arshea's obedience, allowing a character to add twice his CHA bonus to armour.)

Switching topics, I think Inire can be considered an example of a 'quiet' character done well, in the sense that even though she's not one to attract unwanted attention to herself, her presence is still very 'felt'. Sometimes, though, one is forced to take a more pro-active stance than he envisioned to prevent a PbP from getting bogged down when nobody else is willing / knows how to step in for the role (at least IME).

I know about d20pfsrd's stuff being world-less. It's lead to multiple shenanigans. Also, there's an errata that says you can't add an ability bonus to the same statistic twice. It's less clear whether or not you can add a statistic that is a different type of bonus twice, for example if one said 'Charisma as an Enhancement Bonus to Armor', it wouldn't be the same bonus, but it would be the same net effect... so I dunno.

Similarly, the ability to use your charisma instead of wisdom for will saves (or some other equivalent effect) alongside Divine Grace actually is a waste to take... rather than insanely powerful.

I think what works for Inire is the expressiveness I made inherent. She rarely has much to say, but it usually means something when she does. But still, you know how she feels about any given situation, if you're reading her reactions properly.

I agree when it comes to 'dropping the ball'. Most often what slows things down is a situation no one knows how to handle, or one person not responding to someone else. In the games I've grown less interested in, they've slowed down to a crawl. :(

As a side effect of the 'if one person doesn't respond' thing, I've grown afraid to add in hooks to people who aren't as active. Which exacerbates the problem. If I start a conversation in regards to what we should do with the player who doesn't post much, and it takes them four days to get back to me, I'm stuck in limbo. But if I don't post to them, there's a good chance they simply won't get involved and will feel more and more left out. :(

I must say, given a Evelyn's spell I'd rather have tried to grapple the doll (well, pick it up), but I didn't want to let the aid another slip. The doll did crash, didn't it?

Not yet, it hasn't had its turn. So you can definitely shoot it this round, and try to grab it next, after it plummets. Assuming it does. :)

Also, a bow is x3, so even more damage!

RE: AC bonus, as if often happens, it all boils down to a matter of careful wording and heavy rule-lawyering

Flawless Form (Su) Gain an armour bonus equal to your Charisma modifier

This one is an untyped bonus (which generically speaking stacks with everything) which happens to be equal to your CHA bonus, while the other one

Confident Defence (Ex) Add 1 point of your Charisma bonus (if any) per class level to your Dexterity bonus to your Armour Class

basically increases your effective DEX bonus for the purpose of calculating your AC (and unlike the previous one, is negated by the flat-footed condition).

The 'stuck in a limbo' situation can be ameliorated by the GM moving the game forward as soon as 2 people agree on a strategy (and no-one has stepped in to explicitly disagree) when it's a matter of taking communal decisions (which is what we're doing already, basically), or by keeping interactions between two characters separated from the game's flow though spoilers (as long as the two are causally disconnected – if you need a particular character's input to advance the game and he's not posting, there's no way around it other than botting him. If it starts happening too frequently, it's a signal the game's entering a vicious cycle).

@Nathara: Grappling it as soon as it's in range seems a very sound idea, especially considering how prone characters are denied AoOs.

Yes, my warning was about

Duration 1 round/2 levels

though it depends on the doll's CL. Consider taking a 5-foot step SW so that next round we'll be flanking it ;)

Here's a snip from the most recent James Jacob post on the matter of stat stacking (The closing statement thereof):

Think of it this way. Your DEX modifier is how dexterous you are. Simply picking two feats that have overlapping effects doesn't miraculously make you twice as dexterous... it simply means your ability to apply that Dex modifier is increased beyond the norm, and that there is some overlap that "wastes" some of that potential by doubling up when doubling up doesn't count.

So, I'd argue that you are already applying your force of will/personality to your martial defenses, and as a result probably shouldn't be able to apply it again.

It might matter that one is effective for Touch AC, while the other is for flat-footed, but that also means that if you do take both, you get it for both. Which is still not a bad choice at all, as that's a really powerful boost!

As a DM I wouldn't let them stack, I -would- let them overlap, though, and give bonuses to areas the other did not. :)

By all means – I definitely agree and I would also rule that way. This is just a loophole that was never intended to happen in the first place.

Though it bears considering how, in a context where RAW is the law (such as PFS), a GM would be very hard-pressed to refuse such a build. At a cursory glance, the Creative Director was answering a question about whether Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall stack or not. One allows you to switch STR for DEX when calculating your attack bonus, the other flatly allows to add your DEX bonus to your CMB. In the Iroran Paladin + Arshea's obedience combo, adding or substituting your CHA bonus is never even mentioned (though the spirit of the answer still applies fully).

Yup, it's come up a lot of how Weapon Finesse stacks with other things (he's answered with Weapon Finesse and Fury's Fall twice, I believe, in regards to attributes stacking), though the absolute spirit of his answer holds true, at least in my opinion, for the CHA argument.

As for a purely RAW setting, I wouldn't know. I don't know how anything is possible in RAW, given how little many of the rules make sense if you don't allow for bending and interpretation. For example, RAW, a Kensai's Int-to-AC bonus doesn't do anything unless he takes levels of duelist.

But also RAW, by taking a single level of Kensai, a duelist gains the ability to double their int bonus to AC for each level of duellist they have. I think we can all agree it wasn't intended to force a Kensai to have no armor unless they took duelist levels, but RAW... that is precisely the case.

I just can't understand the idea of RAW. It's like starving your Mogwai to death because every time is after midnight.

I'm pretty sure – though I might very well be wrong since I can't seem to find it – there was a FAQ somewhere that explicitly states that if Class X gives you an ability from Class Y which depends on how many levels of Y you have, Y is for all intents and purposes to be substituted with X in every instance it appears – should you have levels in both classes, you don't get the ability twice but you use the sum of X + Y (one could even argue Improved Uncanny Dodge sets a precedent in that regard). I say that because with many Archetypes hybridizing different classes, this is a very widespread issue. I played a Daring Champion Cavalier who had the swashbuckler's Panache and Deeds extraordinary ability coupled with deeds which depended on her 'swashbuckler level'; in that case, the RAI was so clear that at first I didn't even notice there was a potential problem.

Pathfinder is such a rules-heavy system that at times trying to master it feels like studying Law. Though in the Kensai example, getting twice your INT bonus to AC requires forcibly misinterpreting the obvious RAI (and getting none simply makes no sense at all), while the 'Irori + Arshea' is more nuanced in that regard – you don't have to exploit the fundamental ambiguity of natural language for it to work, for instance. It's just an unforeseen consequence of an unforeseen interaction.

The Mogwai, on the other hand, are a glaring example of bad monster design ;)

That moment when you realize Uncanny Dodge is 4th level, not third. *Something Something Trap(Danger) Sense ;~;*