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That was why Etna, and I think I, posted that you might want to reconsider charging in and then standing within a 5' step of the paladin. Tkaara even said so when she saw where you moved. (Which as a free action could have been done half way through your move.)
Fortunately, I think that DMD is considering the Grease area to be difficult terrain, so the Lord Havelyn will have to make a move before his attack, negating the crit chance. Plus, he has a 20% miss chance, not great, but better than nothing, from my darkness.
Wow, I kind of figured others would be moving into the fight with me. I'm quite curious to see the outcome of the miss chance rolls - because if both of those attacks hit, Felrin is very dead.
Having already spent the first round's standard action on buffing the group, I thought to not have Erevan move within reach of an enlarged opponent without actually having something to do (say, attack or charge) besides simply move. That plus Etna's wish thingy is what kept him back.
If Lord Havelyn has to spend a move action due to grease, that may also activate the deja vu spell effect, methinks.
Oy, several issues here.
First, my intent was to be one square away from Tkaara, in H8, and I must have misread the map. But I may have to suffer the consequences of that. Either way, I would have been within his reach, I guess - my aim was mostly to get out in front of Tkaara, since she is not typically one of our front-liners.
Second, I thought I was moving up under cover of Tkaara's darkness, but, as often happens, those dang darkness/light rules eluded me.
Finally, I thought the deja vu spell caused him to repeat the action he just took, rather than the next one, so I expected him to spend two rounds tossing a magic hourglass on the floor, rather than attacking me.
An unfortunate series of misreads and misunderstandings, let's see if it stacks up to a dead inquisitor...
Chill, Inquisitor - Asmodeus is with you!
EDIT: do you think that someone teleporting in creates a surprise round? If so, does their arrival create the surprise round (giving them a Standard action after they arrive), or does the teleporting count as their action for the surprise round?
Asking for a friend
Also, did you guys miss this earlier?
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Lol, and I thought that Inquisitors were supposed to be the most observant of characters. Tkaara, although still thin as a stick, is not quite a fragile as she was when alive. With her AC and hp, she could stand up to, um, well, ok, she would definitely be down from that attack, but not dead. Ok, let me rephrase that. She would still be dead, er, undead, but would not be dead. No, um, she would still be alive. Um, no, er, she would be lying on the ground with a big sword cut in her and would appear to be quite dead. Yeh, that sounds about right.
Actually, Tkaara, remember that a smite does double damage against undead on the first attack; so I think you would in fact have re-died!
Also, I forgot that the weapon is 'holy' - so there's another 2d6 of damage that should have been there. Oh well. There will be other attacks.
Now we can murderstab the Paladin. :P
And Felrin, while it's very gentlemanly of you, Tkaara already noted that she's beefier and sturdier than you now. ;)
Phew!
Sadly for him, Felrin is an inquisitor run by someone who's in the middle of coordinating staffing and logistics for a response to a typhoon on Saipan, working 12-hr days and paying inadequate attention to spell descriptions and tactics.
I'll endeavor to learn a lesson from the close call.
And I'm not sure I have the brain space to answer the teleport question, perhaps later?
Edit: If this is now round 2, why isn't Felrin up along with the others? I know he's after Havelyn in the initiative order, but he should get an action, now that Havelyn has acted, no?
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Actually, Tkaara, remember that a smite does double damage against undead on the first attack; so I think you would in fact have re-died!
Also, I forgot that the weapon is 'holy' - so there's another 2d6 of damage that should have been there. Oh well. There will be other attacks.
Unless he has wafers and wooden spikes and all that other fun vampire stuff, she would not really die, just be left in a permanent nap until some nice Mitran decided to feed her blood or use an Inflict spell on her (or chop her head off and fill her mouth with holy wafers).
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Also, did you guys miss this earlier?EDIT: do you think that someone teleporting in creates a surprise round? If so, does their arrival create the surprise round (giving them a Standard action after they arrive), or does the teleporting count as their action for the surprise round?
Asking for a friend
Hmm. I would think that it would be no different than stepping out from behind a curtain. The spell is "instantaneous", but does require a standard action to cast. However, this would seem to be prior to arriving.
The way I would probably rule, which is based on no research of the spell whatsoever, would be that if the party was prepared, then it would be normal init. If the party were sitting and having lunch or something, then probably a surprise round is applicable.
Perhaps the best way would be to determine a stealth value for the arrival, and allow the party to make perception rolls to see whether they were looking in the right direction would be the best way. Technically, you cannot use stealth if you are being viewed, but it seems like the right way to handle the situation. This way if the stealther were a sneaky rogue, he probably arrived behind the party, on the other hand if the person teleporting is a paladin in clanky armor, then the chance of stealth is pretty minimal.
I am surprised that there is not an FAQ or something related to this, but have not looked, so I cannot say whether there is one or not.
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AFAIR, don't the rules for magical darkness only count magical and natural light? As in, the darkness spell first cancels any and all non-magical, non-natural light within its radius, such as firelight, and then reduces the light level from there.
For instance, assuming this is a normal fortress room, built for defense, it probably only has very small windows that let in a limited amount of sunlight (good for Tkaara!). I would say that is an ambient light level of dim light from the indirect, filtered sunlight coming through a few small windows. Normally the keep's defenders bring the light level up to bright with torches, lanterns, fireplace, whatever, I don't recall it being described. Point is, artificial light. BUT, the darkness spell ignores that, so it would be dealing with the ambient light level, dim, and reducing that one step, to darkness. Ignore all this if they just happen to have the entire room lined with everburning torches, or some other form of magical light of 3rd level or above.
Not asking to change things for this fight if you've already decided how you're going to rule it, just want to make sure we're all on the same page for the rules, since I assume this is going to be a common tactic for us.
As for the teleportation issue, I'm going to say no, it should not count as surprise. As pointed out, the teleporter has (probably) already used their standard action for the round. While it may be startling for them to appear out of nowhere, both parties have to wait until the next round to do much anyway, so both have time to recover from any surprise. I believe if it was meant to give you a free surprise round, it would say so in the description of the spell, or that of teleportation magic in general.
Thanks AU - I've gone back and read the link Etna provided and I think you're right. As I've already said, it's dark outside (you know, late afternoon in Winter) so the hall is lit by torches, oil lamps, that sort of thing - enough light that Havelyn had no problem reading in the corner; I didn't describe it because frankly life's too short.
But in the absence of daylight, the Darkness spell would have cancelled the existing artificial light to create an area of darkness. Ergo, Havelyn - lacking darkvision - would have had a 50% miss chance rather than 20%. Since he missed anyway, it doesn't matter, but I will take it into account going forward.
IMO, this makes a significant departure from 3.5, where darkvision didn't work in magical darkness; now the Darkness spell would appear to = instant win for those with darkvision against those without. Something to consider.
Also agree on your interpretation of the surprise round rules; I re-read them last night and it looks like you get a surprise round at the start of combat, not in the middle.
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Yeah, fighting in an environment where you cannot see your opponents, but they can see you, is extremely dangerous. And in that case, Tkaara, do your best to get him inside that radius! No sight equals not just 50% miss chance, but he also has to guess which square to attack, no attacks of opportunity, and he is denied his Dex bonus from our attacks, meaning I get lots of delicious 3d6+bleed sneak attacks! :D
Yes, Tkaara, do get close to the paladin...
Just refresh my memory - does Ottakar have darkvision?
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Personally, I am not a big fan of Darkvision, both because of its power, and the fact that almost everybody and their brother seems to have it. If I were ruling, I would just have Darkness decrease the lighting level by 1 step, irrespective of the source unless the source were at least 1 level higher, in which case a save/CL check or something would have to be made. Really, that is probably a better way to do it.
My main reason for getting Darkness was to keep Tkaara alive during those nasty parts of the day when that big yellow ball is hanging out in the sky. The fact that it is effectively a communal greater invisibility against anyone without darkvision does seem a little out of balance.
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Also, Erevan, don't forget that Tkaara has a Bull's Strength ready for you when you pass her.
Hmm... Not entirely sure which squares are within the darkness area and which ones are not. Basically, can Erevan attack the paladin while staying within the limits of the area of darkness?
AFAIR, don't the rules for magical darkness only count magical and natural light? As in, the darkness spell first cancels any and all non-magical, non-natural light within its radius, such as firelight, and then reduces the light level from there.
Well, I'm feeling slightly vindicated in terms of my plan to use darkness to get closer to Havelyn. In fact, since I moved after Tkaara cast darkness, Havelyn would have had to pick a square and try to attack it, with no idea where Felrin was, and still have a 50% miss chance. So my strategy seems a good deal less.
Speaking of darkness, Tkaara, it might be good in the future to cast it on something in the possession of one of our melee types, so it completely surrounds our opponent. Then we can be sure to take advantage of our various flanking abilities. If you're keeping some distance from the fight, that won't work as well. If you're going to be right in the mix, well, never mind.
Erevan - your move.
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Not sure what his internet is like, he was on briefly this morning, but has been a little intermittent recently.
Might want to DMPC him unless we want to wait another day to finish this round.
My guess is that he will:
1) Smite Good the friendly paladin (+3 attack, +3 AC, +5 damage_
2) Charge the paladin (+2 attack, -2 AC)
3) Pick up Bull's Strength (+4 Str) when passing Tkaara
4) Attack our friendly paladin with his spear.
- Attack should be +15(+17) (+5 BAB, +5 Str, +3 Divine(smite), +2 charge, +1 enhancement, +1 morale).
Damage is +12 (+5 Str, +5 divine(smite), +1 enhancement, +1 morale).
AC is 26(24 this round) (+4 armor, +1 enhancement, +1 dodge, +4 dex, +1 morale, +3 divine(smite), +2 deflection (shield of faith)) [-2 if charging]
- At least I think those are all his bonuses. He would probably also use a fiendish boon on his weapon. Knowing Erevan, he might choose vicious, although keen and flaming are also viable.
Unfortunately, Smite Good's AC bonus is deflection, +3 to be specific (though against Lord Havelyn only, so shield of faith may still prove useful). Also, I did not charge, as I thought the distance was not enough to do so (I am a bit rusty on that particular action, plus I am not sure if it can be combined with Power Attack); considering I rolled a 3 though, I am not sure it would have made much difference anyway.
I did use a Villain Point though. Hope it connected.
P.S. When a lot of bonuses accumulate, it can be a bother to get it all correct, but I think I have managed to do so (damage from Strength is +7 due to it being a two-handed weapon).
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Yeh, noticed that. Forgot that the AC from Smite was deflection. Also forgot that smite damage is doubled against good clerics and paladins, I am used to paladins which have undead, dragons and outsiders as their doubling creatures.
On the positive side, I think I guessed what you would do fairly accurately. Missed the power attack and villain point (which I do not think any of us would have used for you if we were NPCing you, except to stave off death).
Indeed you did. :-)
As for Villain Points and the pesky death thingy, well, I still have 2. ;-)
Well, let's hope that kills the Paladin. :P
I'll post after DMD updates, but I doubt Havelyn will last much: he has to move before attacking next turn, so he'll be provoking from everyone in melee range. *Evil Laugh*
The death thingy is less of a problem for me. It is the whole "getting sneak attacked with a resurrection" that Tkaara is worried about.
Don't worry, we'll keep any pesky Cleric dead and away (possibly both) from you. <3
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Well, let's hope that kills the Paladin. :P
I'll post after DMD updates, but I doubt Havelyn will last much: he has to move before attacking next turn, so he'll be provoking from everyone in melee range. *Evil Laugh*The death thingy is less of a problem for me. It is the whole "getting sneak attacked with a resurrection" that Tkaara is worried about.Don't worry, we'll keep any pesky Cleric dead and away (possibly both) from you. <3
Ah, but the innocent good clerics taste the best.
My main reason for getting Darkness was to keep Tkaara alive during those nasty parts of the day when that big yellow ball is hanging out in the sky.
Don't think that will work - you don't have Light Sensitivity, you have the Vampire Weakness: killed by direct sunlight. Merely changing the fact that it's bright direct sunlight to normal direct sunlight is unlikely to make any difference at all.
The fact that it is effectively a communal greater invisibility against anyone without darkvision does seem a little out of balance.
This, I agree with entirely. But it's clear from Etna's link that it's not only RAW, but RAI; unless I house-rule it, there's not a lot I can do.
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I am pretty sure that we are all fine with house rules so long as they are clear and consistent, which you have proven yourself time and again able to do. Of course, all it takes are some rogue devils with deeper darkness to turn the tables... ;)
EDIT: And not to be That Guy, but just wondering how the Archon(s) managed to utilize greater teleport (standard action) and continual light (also standard action) in the same round. Not trying to step on toes, just like to make sure everything is consistent. :)
Do I have to hit it, as in with a melee or ranged attack, or do I have to damage it, as in with anything that damages it such as Channel Negative Energy?
Thanks for the compliment AU, but I'm planning to leave it as-is; just expect the Good guys to get wise to your tactics after a while!
Erevan - the rules say you have to "successfully hit the archon that generated the aura". Make of that what you will, but I think channelling negative energy is not going to do it.
EDIT: on the subject of house rules, I'm seriously considering limiting the Deja Vu spell so that a subject can only be affected by it once in a 24-hour period. Otherwise it's just too OP - every single spellcaster you face (and there are a lot of them!) will be taking it, most likely.
Yeah, that is what I figured. Plus CNE would hurt Erevan's good friends as well.
I just noticed that I missed the save by 1. Would that it were a fear effect. Ah, well... Hitting the firefly it is.
Yeah, it's odd; it's not listed as having any of the enchantment, or mind-affecting effect, or fear effect tags - nobody's bonuses/immunities came into play against it!
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Probably a good call on the Deja Vu spell; I've never heard of it before, but the no save part makes it extremely nasty. Perhaps, to avoid such things in the future, a rule that spells from sources other than core books are too obscure to learn unless we find an appropriate scroll/spellbook/what-have-you.
...On closer inspection, Etna, you might want to take another look at that spell. The reason I have not heard of such a powerful 1st level spell is that it is from the 3rd party book Psionics Unleashed. And, while we have been allowed to use some 3rd party material, I think that a) it should always be cleared with DMD first, and b) it doesn't matter because it is not on your spell list: only cryptics and psion/wilders can cast it.
Different topic: yeah, aura of menace is a weird one, because, as DMD pointed out, no tags of any sort, and the method to dismiss it is unclear; as written, you can just touch it for no damage to count as "hitting" it, but it's unclear whether or not using a spell with no attack roll would count, no matter how debilitating.
Finally: might have gotten lost in the edit on my last post. DMD, are you ruling that the archon was able to perform two standard actions last round (teleporting and casting their light spell)? Because the answer to that will greatly effect the Doctor's actions this next round...
The deja vu spell Etna has chosen is the one from Occult Adventures actually. Similar, but not identical to the one in Psionics Unleashed.
Erevan/F. Castor is right - Etna has taken the 'correct' Deja Vu spell from Occult Adventures. It's still OP, but it's not 3rd party.
Much as I like the idea of non-Core spells being hard to find, for innate spellcasters like sorcerors who simply 'know' spells rather than having to research them I don't see that it would make any difference.
And to answer AU's question, there was only one standard action (Greater Teleport) - Continual Flame is an at-will ability for them, so they long ago cast it on themselves. No breaking/bending/narrativity was employed!
@Deja Vu: And, as it can be expected, the Dreamscarred Press one is more balanced: it allows a save, after all. :P
Now that I think about it, maybe Felrin got confused because he knew the DP one and assumed they had the same effect: that's what happened after I read the spell the first time, but then realized they were different.
And I'm fine with it working like the more powerful witch hexes with that limit, DMD: spamming the same spell would bore me anyway.<---(Says the sorceress who casted Grease half a million times since the start of the campaign.)
Back to Paladin-mincing, I propose that we focus on Havelyn and then on the Archon: he's forced to take that move and standard, in that order, but he can still LoH with a swift action no problem!
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Haha, I think my migraine is slowing my thinking today. Of course they would have a version in Occult Adventures; I have not had a chance to peruse that, as of yet. And also, of course they could have cast the light spell prior to teleporting in. Please disregard my silliness; maybe I'll try to get to sleep soon and hope I feel (and think!) better in the morning...
Haha, I think my migraine is slowing my thinking today. Of course they would have a version in Occult Adventures; I have not had a chance to peruse that, as of yet. And also, of course they could have cast the light spell prior to teleporting in. Please disregard my silliness; maybe I'll try to get to sleep soon and hope I feel (and think!) better in the morning...
Murderstab Havelyn before going to bed: I heard that bisecting paladins does wonders for headaches. :P
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Rules question. Continual Flame is a level 2 sorc/wizard spell, but level 3 cleric spell. Per RAW, it appears as though it should default to sorcerer/wizard and be a level 2 spell.
If it is a level 2 spell, then Tkaara can keep canceling it with Darkness (yeh, Tkaara will run out before the at will ability of the archon), but it will force the creature to keep using standard actions to bring up the light.
This is my reasoning as to what Tkaara's actions are. Not that she would know this, her goal is simply to see if she can give back the advantage to the party.
No - all that will happen is that you turn the bright magical light to a normal level of light. Nice try, though.
At least your character has learned a valuable lesson as to how her magic works.
Right, now it's the good guys' turn...
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Didn't see your post until after I posted. Oh well. Clearly the light/darkness thing could use some clarification in the rules. In the old days, as I recall, Continual Light was a level 3 spell, so it was easy to know the pecking order. Now they seem to have eliminated continual light and replaced it with the sort of hybrid Continual Flame, which is usually 2nd level.
Anyway, Tkaara probably would not have known what type of light spell it was, and just hoped to bring back the shadows. If it does not work, then she will try something else next round.
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I was assuming that DMD had ruled that, since the archons are a divine source, their SLA used the divine SL of 3rd (not RAW, but reasonable).
If not, none of this works the way we have been doing it, because a darkness spell of an equal or greater level trumps a light spell (with the special exception of Sunlight). If their continual flame spell is 2nd level, then it does precisely jack to counter Tkaara's darkness UNLESS they specifically touch her shield and counter the spell directly. (The rules for counterspelling, dispelling, and overlapping all being different, of course.) They could keep casting it however often they wanted, but anywhere the two spells overlapped it would still be darkness, again, unless they use a casting and specifically touch the origin of the darkness spell to dispel it.
If the SL is 3rd, then Tkaara touching them with another darkness would do nothing, since it is a lower level spell. If it is 2nd, then we have to retcon a bunch of stuff, so I recommend we just let it be 3rd for this fight and duke it out in the *shudder* bright, holy light.
EDIT: Actually, in looking back, wouldn't have to retcon that much, just add sneak attack damage to my hit and let Tkaara change her action. Still, DMD seems pretty keen on the damned paladin being able to see. :P
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Lol - yeh. In this case, Tkaara really does not know much about the archons and would not know enough about her nascent powers to realize that her darkness would not work. Yeh, it is a lost action, but a reasonable one.
Her other option would be to see if she could grapple the archon and try to drain blood, but that seems like a really low chance of success, on top of which there is the question of what is a living being, and does it have blood, something that gets more open to debate the farther creatures get from the prime material plane.
I was assuming that DMD had ruled that, since the archons are a divine source, their SLA used the divine SL of 3rd (not RAW, but reasonable).
If not, none of this works the way we have been doing it, because a darkness spell of an equal or greater level trumps a light spell (with the special exception of Sunlight).
If only it were that simple... the description for Continual Flame states that it trumps a darkness spell of equal or lower level. Given that - as Tkaara has pointed out - Darkness is effectively giving you the effects of Mass Greater Invisibility (not bad for a level 2 spell!), then I'm going to rule that the light spell wins out. That's my final ruling on this.
Of course, there's a simple remedy: kill the Archon!
I've been crunching the numbers, BTW, and the Archon's AC is 21 (T 17, FF 13); Havelyn's AC is 25 (T 12, FF 24) or 30 (T 15, FF 29) against targets of his smite. I'd have provided these earlier, but I've been away from my books.
I've just skimmed trough the post, but shouldn't Balin provoke with his movement? He moved out of Felrin, Erevan, and the doctor's threatened squares.
5 ft step, no? He's not moving to a greased square, so it's ok. He moved 5 ft last turn under the Deja Vu (although it counted as 10 ft movement as he was fully on the grease) and he's moved 5 ft this turn as a step. The Deja Vu prevents him from full-attacking, though!
And Balin is dead. This is Havelyn. Or do all paladins look alike to you, you... you... classist?! ;-)
EDIT: So, ignore that. Etna is quite right. To save time, I've rolled the AoOs. I hope you don't mind, I just want to keep things moving. If you'd rather roll them yourselves in future, let me know.
Thanks for the spot, Etna. My bad. That spell is weird!
He had to use an actual move action last post to move 10 feet, that got reduced to 5. Now, he has to take again a move action to move (even if he can decide to move as far as he wants): I don't think he can use a 5 ft. step if he moved the same turn.