Shipping Charges

Removed a side-thread about unions impacting pricing, as it is unrelated to the original topic of shipping costs.

You can now buy some Paizo books through DrivethruRPG, maybe that would be a better/cheaper option for international customers who want physical product? I've had (non-Pathfinder) books printed on (my) demand by Drivethru before and shipping was quicker/cheaper than when I used to maintain my AP subscription.

You can now buy some Paizo books through DrivethruRPG, maybe that would be a better/cheaper option for international customers who want physical product? I've had (non-Pathfinder) books printed on (my) demand by Drivethru before and shipping was quicker/cheaper than when I used to maintain my AP subscription.

DTRPG prints its stuff in the UK, which means you're still facing VAT/customs if you order from EU. Shipping is a bit cheaper, sure.

Removed a post, as it harassed based on location.

Bringing a company the size of Amazon in to an argument about shipping is really misunderstanding the scale of what's being discussed. They are possibly the largest user of courier/mail services in the world?

When Amazon give you "free" shipping, you aren't paying for it. But it's not free for Amazon - they still have to factor that cost in to their business model. But they ship and post SO many millions of items per day, that the economies of scale are massive. The price per item is negligible, and they can eat it.

Amazon also ship and sell a lot of stuff at a loss, as part of their aggressive business practice of undercutting all sectors.

For a Paizo product, someone has to pay for the shipping. I am sure they benefit from some economies due to volume, but it's miniscule compared to something like Amazon. With margins so tight, it's either going to be the customer or the company. You can have a book for $20 + $5 shipping, or have it for $25.

Examples of local businesses offering free shipping

For all those FLGS offering free shipping, they have purchased their Paizo products at the wholesale price from Paizo.

The FLGS will have a business model where they can cover the of the book to them, the shipping to customer, their fixed costs and paying their staff. With a little bit at the end to contribute to their top line.

What's the big cost there? It's the wholesale price from Paizo. Paizo being the company that has to develop the product, pay for it to be produced and then set a wholesale price that covers all those costs. Whilst also looking at their own profit.

So Paizo stops charging for shipping on direct sales. But still need to pay for it. They either increase their prices to the end customer, or increase the wholesale price to distributers. They don't want to do that, because your local bookstore is probably already working on a tiny margin for each book they sell.

Demanding free shipping, lower prices in an industry where the staff are already underpaid and overworked seems a bit perverse. Paizo might be a multi-million dollar company, but Amazon, Staples etc. are multi-billion or even trillion dollar companies. Eventually all companies will just be a subsidiary of Amazon, and we'll miss the small companies like Paizo. Because it is small.

Interesting as someone in the transport industry it's as cheap as it is. You mentioned Walmart and Amazon those are GINORMOUS companies who are making up the cost in volume and customer base. Paizo doesn't have that. Considering most of the shipments are books (in my experience anyway I'm aware they sell more than that) that's a lot of weight.

P

Yeah, anyone who would compare Paizo's shipping capacity to the shipping capacities of a company that infamously defrauded the USPS to get insanely cheap and fast shipping while their employers pee in jars should not be taken seriously at all.

Nope, but paizo appears to have a model little suited to international shipping still. Now that is not rare for American gaming companies, but still annoying.

I don’t expect the Amazon model (rather not) but shipping via an EU hub might be an improvement already. But I admit I am sick and tired of the America First model that still pervades your society, and expected (apparently incorrectly) more from Paizo.

Nope, but paizo appears to have a model little suited to international shipping still. Now that is not rare for American gaming companies, but still annoying.

I don’t expect the Amazon model (rather not) but shipping via an EU hub might be an improvement already. But I admit I am sick and tired of the America First model that still pervades your society, and expected (apparently incorrectly) more from Paizo.

It may also be that technology and copyright laws aren't compatible with such things. I know that the EU has restrictions on privacy and personal data that preclude the dissemination of things from the EU so there may be a legal balancing act there.

Not an attorney, not an expert, but I remember it being a big deal when I was looking at sourcing some BattleTech stuff from Germany (with an English translation) because it wasn't available here in the States.

If anything, as of the last thing I heard things got more restrictive.

If someone has better information or knows where to look for said information, that'd be welcome.

There are (potential) limitations of selling copyrighted materials across borders. However these don’t really apply to the copyright holder (they can restrict cross border (outside EU) sales, but are not themselves limited).

Privacy laws are more strict in EU, but if you would use a distribution center or such it should be arrangeable. (You also share addresses with shipping companies by necessity).

I expect it is economies of scale, but that is also self-fulfilling. Expensive shipping reduces sales to EU.

There is clearly an over-focus on the biggest retailers. The point was just that there are many examples across the spectrum (from large international companies to small single-front local ones) that provide free shipping without charging a measurable difference in price than the ones that charge for shipping. Simply put, shipping in the 21st century business model, is becoming a cost of doing business, as the frequency of doing so increases. At some point, Paizo is going to have to embrace that fact or they are going to be negatively affected. There is a quickly growing consumer who is looking at the total cost, not just the shiny discount on the MSRP. As the options continue to expand for consumers and we continue to refine our buying-savvy, the tighter profits are squeezed and to remain competitive, the seller has to give more to the buyer for less.

I guess the comic shop I've been ordering comics from hasn't gotten the memo either. Nor has the toy store I've been using. Hasbro hasn't either. Weird.

There is clearly an over-focus on the biggest retailers. The point was just that there are many examples across the spectrum (from large international companies to small single-front local ones) that provide free shipping without charging a measurable difference in price than the ones that charge for shipping. Simply put, shipping in the 21st century business model, is becoming a cost of doing business, as the frequency of doing so increases. At some point, Paizo is going to have to embrace that fact or they are going to be negatively affected. There is a quickly growing consumer who is looking at the total cost, not just the shiny discount on the MSRP. As the options continue to expand for consumers and we continue to refine our buying-savvy, the tighter profits are squeezed and to remain competitive, the seller has to give more to the buyer for less.

Until the seller goes bankrupt and the buyer has nothing left to buy ;-)

Free shipping is an illusion. The cost has to be paid somewhere by someone. In the end, one way or another, the customer pays for it. Sometimes in lesser quality, or bigger delays ...

EDIT--actually, I'm done here. I said my peace and Paizo customer service has seen it. They can point the powers that be to it, or they can ignore it.

Who pays for the free shipping ?

Money does not grow on trees. It has to come out of someone's pocket.

Who pays for the free shipping ?

The customers pocket, in aggregate. One instance of equal costs does not disprove that, especially when part of large enterprises offering free shipping is to undercut competition on the way to there being less competition to undercut.

We do pay for shipping, but there are less and more expensive ways to arrange it. Paizo seems to use a relatively expensive approach (but probably serves most customers I guess?).

EDIT--actually, I'm done here. I said my peace and Paizo customer service has seen it. They can point the powers that be to it, or they can ignore it.

Hello. This is not a new topic for us, the power that be have thought about it before. We have no changes to make at this time. Thanks for the feedback.

TwilightKnight wrote:

EDIT--actually, I'm done here. I said my peace and Paizo customer service has seen it. They can point the powers that be to it, or they can ignore it.

Hello. This is not a new topic for us, the power that be have thought about it before. We have no changes to make at this time. Thanks for the feedback.

Aaron,

I just want to say how much I appreciate all that you do for us here on the boards. Especially how responsive you are, even when its not likely to be appreciated from the person you are responding to.

Aaron Shanks wrote:

TwilightKnight wrote:

EDIT--actually, I'm done here. I said my peace and Paizo customer service has seen it. They can point the powers that be to it, or they can ignore it.

Hello. This is not a new topic for us, the power that be have thought about it before. We have no changes to make at this time. Thanks for the feedback.

Aaron,

I just want to say how much I appreciate all that you do for us here on the boards. Especially how responsive you are, even when its not likely to be appreciated from the person you are responding to.

Thank you.