The Bogshark Fiasco

Game Master Lord Grey

Chapter 3 - Circling Sharks

The storm spins overhead. Lightning crashes, fiery explosions cast red glares in brief bursts over the city. Freezing rain sweeps the streets, and the cities' dazers shamble toward the lightning struck house.


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The current concept is that the bugbear was taken on by a non-monster at a young age and taught as a knight/wizard. So both strange stereotypes come from the same source. I like your bugbear ideas in general though (though still nothing is final yet)


Definitely some points I hadn't considered, and a nice looking class setup(more creative than anything I could think of looking at the MM). Though I'm wondering if maybe, given that they have higher dex than hobgoblins or orcs, (heck they're not even quite as strong as orcs) maybe a +2str, +1 dex would prevent it from being a "every STR based build takes this" race. Oh and they have a big stealth bonus, so maybe swapping intimidate prof with stealth prof from half-orcs?

so you have compared to
+2STR, +1DEX//+2 str, +1 con
Dark Vision//Dark Vision
Languages: Common, Goblin//Languages: Common, Orc
Stalker: prof in Stealth//Menacing: Prof in Intimidate
Bulk: Advantage on str saving//Relentless: When reduced to 0hp, can
throws to resist being pushed//drop to 1 hp instead
back.
Tough Hide: +1 AC//When you crit, gain an extra x1 to the damage.
That actually looks pretty pound-for pound balanced to me, but I'm new to this edition :D
(sorry about the formatting, it looked all nice in the preview then the forum scrunched the text together so I had to separate some other way >.<
And I am not super attached to bugbears, per se. I was just thinking "Monstrous Humanoid" taken in, and accepted by a Knight (who happens to be a magic knight :D), then cast out (after the knights death) since others would not similarly look past his race.

So flipping through the 5E monster manual for those kinds of guys(bugbears, hobgoblins, and orcs came to mind), I noted that hobgoblins are more sneaky than the others (orcs being angry tribal, and Hobbos being very militaristic), with the implication that they are not as brave, and I thought maybe his bravery as a young child inspired the knight.

A thing I will say about the eldritch knight is that it seems slightly less studious than the normal wizard, given it has no access to arcana training and does not use a spellbook (though it's still an INT caster)


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

@Grey, anything can be explained via background, but should it?

A bugbear eldrich knight who swears by a code of honor, but is terrible at actually following it could be interesting. Ala he's evil or neutral at best, but is trying to follow this lawful good code of conduct set out by his former instructor. I imagine he'd have to rationalize a lot of things (like banditry) because of his nature.

Likewise, if he's just a typical bugbear rogue/fighter/barbarian/whatever, but he's kind-hearted, you can build a lot of background off that. How messed up would his life with the other bugbears be? Did he follow their evil-lead for a long time, trying to drown the feelings of guilt and empathy? Did he run away? Get picked on? Get abandoned? Those sorts of stories can lead to a rich character.

If you stick too many feathers in a hat, it stops being fashionable and you're just wearing a bunch of feathers on your head. Meaning if there's too many unique stereotype-breaking decorations on a character then it becomes all about those.

@Susano, The AC is pretty huge actually, because of the whole clamped accuracy thing, so I was little worried about it.

Guessing you meant to write that bugbears were more sneaky than the others. Sounds good though.

When I referenced the 'studious book-learned' bit, I was thinking of this:

"The archetypal Eldritch Knight combines the martial
mastery common to all fighters with a careful study of
magic. Eldritch Knights use magical techniques similar
to those practiced by wizards. They focus their study
on two of the eight schools of magic: abjuration and
evocation.
Abjuration spells grant an Eldritch Knight
additional protection in battle, and evocation spells deal
damage to many foes at once, extending the fighter’s
reach in combat. These knights learn a comparatively
small number of spells, committing them to memory
instead of keeping them in a spellbook.
"

Like you said, not as nerdy as a wizard, but it sounds more like an Bachelor's Degree in nerdiness instead of a Doctorate in nerdiness. The power is still coming from study, books, and learning, rather than a connection with a deity, inner power, etc.

Just my thoughts and brainstorming :]


AC 14, HP 44/61, Init +5, P.P. 11, S. DC 16, Insp: 1, HD: 6/9, BI: 0/4, 1st (4/4), 2nd (1/3), 3rd (0/3), 4th (0/3), 5th (1/1) Bard (9)

My 2cents: I'm not against the Ac bonus but it is a big bump as I can't even think of a feat that provides it. Maybe a racial that provides like a 1d4 temporary Hp after a rest and scales with level? Just shooting ideas.

From a team balance standpoint an eldrich knight should be fine. The rest is all in the mix with what you want to do.

Only thing I can think of is the two completely reviled races are gonna have some story overlap,anand maybe start tavern brawls over who should be hated more. Lol


I may be looking in the wrong place, but I don't see where you guys are getting this bugbear AC bonus. In the MM their AC is explainable without needing anything else. (16 ac: 2 from dex, 2 from armor, 2 from shield)

I was also already really considering the stealth proficiency as that seems to be their natural good skill.

Other potentially adaptable races for your consideration (not that I am saying no bugbear, but as you said you aren't committed to the idea..):
-------------------
Kenku
Goblin
Satyr
Githyanki
gnoll
Lizardfolk

However, the easiest would be to choose a race already detailed in the book that might be met with suspicion/distrust. Teifling, half-orc, dragonborn (chromatics specifically), Deep Gnomes (not entirely detailed, but close enough). I would prefer this, but am willing to work outside of the specifically listed races (Hey, 5th encourages improve!).


AC 14, HP 44/61, Init +5, P.P. 11, S. DC 16, Insp: 1, HD: 6/9, BI: 0/4, 1st (4/4), 2nd (1/3), 3rd (0/3), 4th (0/3), 5th (1/1) Bard (9)

Oooh tiefling spellsword sounds awesome. Even if you don't use it I may have to at a later date.


If the tiefling spellsword merc'ed out, it would be a tiefling sellsword spellsword.

If they were evil, it would be a tiefling hellward sellsword spellsword.

If overly blunt/flirty, a tiefling forward hellward sellsword spellsword.


AC 14, HP 44/61, Init +5, P.P. 11, S. DC 16, Insp: 1, HD: 6/9, BI: 0/4, 1st (4/4), 2nd (1/3), 3rd (0/3), 4th (0/3), 5th (1/1) Bard (9)

You stop that right now! that's my job!


oh, no, you got him onto puns! :D
RE AC: you are right, I wasnt thinking in terms of bounded accuracy, just looking at not getting hit 5% more vs doing more damage 5% more (or 10% with Champion archetype) (maybe something
RE too many feathers. I agree that too many incidentals can make a concept a cluttered mess, so its all about how well you make the details tie in. Heck, let me give the pitch and see if it still seems to not mesh. (just keep in mind I wrote it to get the idea accross, not to sound good. If this ends up being the end produict, I'll give it a better write up on my character page :D

backstory:
What I've got right now is that a knight (also of the Eldritch variety) was on a mission to take out a bugbear camp that had been causing trouble in the towns/villages nearby. Meanwhile, young [charname] has snuck out to join the camp, wanting to be a man/bugmensch and fight.
The knights rout the bugbears, and while they are escaping, one of them pushes another down to get more distance. Before [charname] knows what he is doing, he has dashed back to the tripped bugbear, snatched his dagger, and is imposing himself before the knight.
the knight easily disarms him, but the bugbear gets away(and by now the others are slain or have fled).
The knight is impressed with the youngster, and sees honor and courage in him uncommon to his kind. He takes him in, shows him what the results of his peoples' ways are, and takes him as a squire.
years later he is ready to be knighted, but before the ceremony can occur, his mentor dies, supposedly accidentally, but he suspects foul play. He cannot prove it, though, and is more or less drummed out, since no one else will take a goblinoid as their squire. he eventually finds his way to the bogsharks, who accept him for who and what he is, and he finds in them a noble spirit, regardless of their bandit nature.

Don't know forgotten realms geography nearly enough to even think of where this kingdom actually would be :D

I figure he is Lawful at heart, but recognizes that the law often pushes people who don't fit in onto the fringes, and that the powers that be tend to create order to society in such a way that they benefit, at the expense of the downtrodden.
his inner bugbear/tiefling/etc comes out in a lust for combat. He channels that to good ends, only fighting when he feels it is justified, though he does love to fight, and generally test his strength

@grey: If you want me to stick to PHB races, I can do that. I'll check out the various suggestions in any case and get back to you. :D[I had thought about Tieflings at one point, but their stat spread is really ppor for fighters, and only ok for INT casters (though cantrips are always fun :D)]


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

Sounds cool to me. Something that might add to the character is maybe he struggled terribly in his training and study, always being shown up by other squires/whatever, but his mentor never gave up on him.

Makes the loss more painful, and creates some early struggle that would form who he is now. Maybe he had a rival who was human or elf, and took to fighting/casting easily, and gave him a lot of s~@@ because he was a bugbear and struggling. Maybe after the mentor dies, that rival squire taunts him, glad that the bugbear will finally get cast out. Your char loses it, and brutally kills him in a rage, not using any of his discipline or spells just his instinct and brute strength. That could form who he is now, too. Maybe he vowed to never again let discipline slip, or to always keep his temper, etc.

Just some ideas.

Also, Tiefling would be decent IMO. You could leave your CHA at 8(-1), and the +2 would set you at 10(0), so you don't have a negative saving throw. And the intelligence would help with Eldrich knight. Dark vision, fire resistance (all fire damage halved). Then the cantrips of course. But yeah it wouldn't be as ideal as a half-orc for brute combat, especially if you want to max strength.


Right, being a STR fighter not having at least +1 STR (for a 16 starting) really hurts, and having a plus in what is essentially a dump stat is a lot less efficient, PB-wise, than having a plus in at least a peripheral stat.

I think, given the low total modifiers in a 5E character, most races can work for most classes (which is cool :D)

I think I'll incorporate the rival. Having a crime on his record actually accounts for his being in an outlaw group very well. if agents of the nation/friends of the rival found him, they may well come after him, making a legitimate profession very risky. Thanks :D

Grey, are you keeping to CHA being intimidate or can STR be used as the stat base?


Unless argued otherwise, I think I'm fine with STR being used for physically imposing sorts of intimidation.


Mwa hahahha! I have finally figured out what is going on with THE BOSS (for the most part).

I'll start working it into the story when I think it is appropriate, but continue being tight-lipped about him. No confirmations/denials without deception checks.


I think, looking at the options presented, that bugbear seems to mesh best with my vague mental archype I had in my head as well as meshing the best with the backstory, which I find I am rather attached to now :D
So, since Grey has given the go ahead, I'd like to fine-tune that bugbear racial template.

Since the AC seems to be pretty huge and the MM entry doesn't seem to have natural armor or anything, I think swapping that might be good. maybe some temp HP on rest to represent unnatural toughness (27hp for a challenge 1, though I think 5E monsters have more HP than equivalent PCs) as Trissae suggested, or toned down brute or surprise attack features (roll 1 extra weapon die on hit and do 2d6 damage if you hit in 1st round of combat after surprising someone, respectively)?(maybe limiting brute to once or twice a long rest, or reducing surprise attack damage dice to 1d6?


AC 14, HP 44/61, Init +5, P.P. 11, S. DC 16, Insp: 1, HD: 6/9, BI: 0/4, 1st (4/4), 2nd (1/3), 3rd (0/3), 4th (0/3), 5th (1/1) Bard (9)

The 5e monster manual really paints them as sneak attackers and not particularly more burly than other similar races. Only the chieftain has any sort of special fortitude. That being said I don't want to pry too much away in this suggestion.

Things I'm down with:

str +2
Either con or dex +1
dark vision
Intimidate and stealth proficiency

I'm okay with the surprise attack feature, since you have to set it up and its once a battle generally. in fact it'd probably have to scale to be adequate at higher levels (dragonborn breath attack as example)

What I'm not down with:

I'm reneging on any of the defensive features now since its not indicative of the race (beyond the +1 con).

I simply don't like brute in player hands, anybody using a weapon would want to roll bugbear at that point.

What I'll suggest:

if the things I'm down with aren't enough of a selling point I might suggest adding some weapon proficiency to the race that would be thematic to the race (clubs, axes, etc) perhaps.

instead of brute you could also try something like treat all rolls of 1 as 2 on damage (variable, just an example)

that's off the hip for now. let me know what you think


yeah, I'm pretty much cool with whatever periphery abilities get oked or come up with. The burly aspect is that they ate like 7ft tall, so, though they are not 'large,' they are way bigger than any of the PHB races.

My thoughts behind scaling down brute for player use is that if you get an extra, say, 1d6 damage a few times a day it pretty similar to the half-orc, get up to 1d12 extra damage 1 in 20 times, but of course you wouldn't want to make it too good (though with half-orc resilience, I think even if Brute beat out the half-orc crit feature many people might still take half-orc. But I am easy. Whatever Gray wants to do it fine with me :D

(and incidentally, I was thinking stealth instead of intimidate (though I wouldn't complain about both :D)


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

I dont see where Brute is mentioned, so no idea what that is.

Str +2, Dex +1
Dark Vision
Stealth Proficiency

-Bulky: Str Saving Throw Advantage on being pushed back? OR
-Bulky alt: Advantage on all Str saving throws.
-Ambush Strike: When acting in a surprise round, deal an extra 1d6 damage.
-Bugbear Proficiency: Proficiency with Clubs, Maces, and Greatclub. OR
-Bugbear Proficiency alt: Proficiency with Morningstars (more powerful)

Depending on if it seems too weak or too strong, could pick either of the proficiencies. Only clubs maces and greatclub will only interact with a few classes. Sorcerer, wizard, druid. Otherwise you get them from Simple Weapon prof that most classes have. Morningstar however is a direct upgrade being a Martial weapon, and would interact with more classes, but yeah it's stronger.

Likewise, Bulky vs Bulky alt would be the weak or strong versions.

Sound like about where we're at?


Brute is in the 5E monster manual entry (its what I mention in the parenthetical: bugbears as monsters get an extra die to their weapons, so 1d8 becomes 2d8, 2d6 becomes 3d6, etc. To make it not a "no duh" option for martial types, I figured it might be balanced with the Half-orc ability to do extra damage on crits if it was limited to, say, once or twice per long rest)

advantage on all STR saves seems to be pretty powerful and completely negates any need on my part to try to do things to try to get said advantage, but the weaker version sounds good. I am fine with ambush strike, and I am fine with either proficiency or none (of course, the proficiency is irrelevant to me personally, so I might be more apathetic than I might be otherwise :D)

But in any case, I figure Grey has enough to work with to approve a chassis for a bugbear PC race. Pretty sure all I need is that and to do the backstory writ-up all official-like and he'll be ready when the story calls for him :D


AC 14, HP 44/61, Init +5, P.P. 11, S. DC 16, Insp: 1, HD: 6/9, BI: 0/4, 1st (4/4), 2nd (1/3), 3rd (0/3), 4th (0/3), 5th (1/1) Bard (9)

Brute is the MM and just adds a weapon damage dice to whatever weapon they're using. 2d6 turns into 3d6, 1d12 turns into 2d12 etc.. its the 5e version.

The MM also describes them as cowards when they're out matched but I don't think you'll want to RP that part ^_~

as of current there's no keen on weapons or anyway to increase crit chance that so (so far) only a natural 20 gets you a crit which makes it alot less common than 1 a day even unless you're really lucky.


Here's what I've got so far:

Bugbear PC Race
-----------------------
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 2, and your Dexterity score increases by 1.

Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.

Darkvision within 60 feet

Stealthy. You gain proficiency in the Stealth skill.

Bulky. You have advantage on strength checks when shoving or being shoved. Additionally, you can attempt a shove against a creature two size categories larger than you, but with disadvantage instead of advantage.

Surprise Attack. If the bugbear surprises a creature and hits it with an attack during the first round of combat, the target takes an extra 1d6 damage from the attack

Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and Goblin

-----------------------------

I lessened Surprise attack to only 1d6 to keep it from being overpowering (especially for rogue/bugbear builds)

I like the idea of Trissae's alternate brute, where rolls of 1 on melee damage rolls are treated as 2. This might be replaceable with either bulky or Surprise Attack, but as it is here the Surprise Attack and Stealthy cover the bugbear's sneakiness and Bulky covers their largeness. You get some extra damage out of the deal and some potentially interesting pushy/proney stuff.


Champion fighter archetype gives crits on 19-20. :D
But still, 1 in 20 or 1 in 10 are definitely less than 1 a long rest (and uncontrollable) on the other hand, half-orcs can also say "Nope!" to getting dropped once a long rest as well. But either way, I am fine with whatever gets decided on--I didn't pick it to be the bestest fighter ever, just one that stuck out to me as I constructed his backstory :D

@grey sounds good to me. I'll write it on my sheet :D


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

Cool. It's like a half-orc but for rogues. And still flexible enough to work for any class.


yeah, I agree. (heck, I'm using it for fighter/mage :D)


If you aren't familiar with shoving already, I'd read up on it on page 195 of the PHB


probably good, yeah :D


AC 14, HP 44/61, Init +5, P.P. 11, S. DC 16, Insp: 1, HD: 6/9, BI: 0/4, 1st (4/4), 2nd (1/3), 3rd (0/3), 4th (0/3), 5th (1/1) Bard (9)

I'd still suggest the sneak attack scaling at different levels, maybe 4, 8, 12, 16 or something like that. The dragonborn's breath isn't hard to control and gets up to like 4d6 or something like that. compared to a situational damage boost


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

Well... halforc savagery doesn't scale. None of the racial bonuses do except the dragons breath ability. Which imo is because you have to actively use it (meaning instead of doing something else with your action). Whereas something like half-orc savagery is just added on top of anything you do.

If you had to actively bugbear attack instead of a regular attack, then it'd definitely need to scale.


I think I could be argued to keep the sneak attack damage as 2d6 since it is surprise round only, which will happen less than once an encounter, but I agree with Adrien that it shouldn't scale since it doesn't cost an action alone to use. Actions have to improve with level to stay viable, extra sauce on top of actions don't, they're free.

Really, lets say an encounter lasts 5 rounds, at our level that is five chances to crit. 1/4 chance of the extra damage proccing. This gets smaller as you get multiple attacks per round, or as combat lasts longer. Also, you still have to hit with this attack, by definition a crit is on a hit. You can blow the surprise attack by simply missing.

Having the element of surprise in combat and being able to take advantage of that to deal the extra sneak attack damage might be more than 1/4th, but I'd argue not by much. It really depends on the nature of the encounters.

When the Bogsharks flew out of the woods to attack the guards, this would count. When the carriages open causing the guards the flood out, not. When the civilians threw bricks at you in the street, not. You have to not only perceive the coming fight, but to do it in a way where your enemies do not (using stealth, getting lucky, ambushing).

I'm honestly not sure where the balancing point is here, so I'll leave it to this: Does it seem that the powers that I've already listed for the bugbear are appropriately balanced in total with other races, or does an extra 1d6 during surprise attacks seem necessary to keep them on similar levels of potency?


I'm in the same boat you are. I can see the argument that 2d6 is fair, an also see the argument that if you plan around it, 2d6 is too potent for a stealth based char. We'll probably just have to see how things play out (though I doubt Grellik will push that envelope too much, just because of the stat spread and class feature priorities, but we'll see)


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

Yeah a bugbear rogue is what I'd be worried about. I'd say 1d6 and shift power elsewhere that doesn't give so much power to a stealth build.

Morningstar proficiency is still an option. It's a pretty strong martial weapon that could flavor any bugbear that didn't get martial weapons from their class. Morningstars are like... the bugbear's THANG.

Or uh what about, Brute: Deal 1 extra bludgeoning damage with any strength-based melee attack.


There is another, similar surprise based power that I'm aware of in the rogue's level 3 assassin archetype.

If they hit while having surprise it counts as a critical hit. This means that their sneak attack is doubled as well.

An extra 2d6 doesn't seem as powerful as this, which is good.

BUT WOAH WOAH WOAH! These two things would stack >___<. Level 3 rogue, 1d6 for weapon damage lets say, +2d6 sneak attack, +2d6 bugbear dice. CRIT... 10d6+dex damage on first round. DAaaaaaaaaaaamn son! As it is now, it would only be 8d6+dex.... Only. (sigh) F$$*ing insta-crit rogue builds. At least it is only first round! Hah.

Also, I'm not sure if it should be balanced in at all that Bugbears are more socially outcast than other PHB races, except for Drow. Triss, how do you feel about the Drow, have they been a bit overmechanicaed to make up for the hate they have to deal with?


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

Yeeeah auto crit is noooot a good idea lol. Speaking of though, you could specifically state that the 1d6 surprise round damage counts as sneak attack damage and is therefore multiplied on crit.

Drow flaw is pretty brutal imo. Disadvantage on all attack rolls during daylight in exchange for x2 range on darkvision? Compare to Tiefling. Both races get a mix of spells.

Drow:
+2 dex, +1 Cha
120' Darkvision
Dancing lights, Faerie fire, Darkness
Light sensitivity disadvantage on attacks and perception in daylight.
Advantage to resist being charmed, can't be put to sleep.

Tiefling:
+2 cha, +1 int
60' darkvision
Thaumaturgy, Hellish Rebuke, Darkness
Fire resistance (half damage from all fire).


Quote:
Speaking of though, you could specifically state that the 1d6 surprise round damage counts as sneak attack damage and is therefore multiplied on crit.

I'm not sure I follow. I believe all damage dice, no matter where their origin, are doubled on a crit. It's the modifiers that aren't. If true, this means sneak attack AND surprise attack both are multiplied on crits.

As far as the auto-crit ability, it really hasn't been a huge upset. She'll kill that one thing, sure, but that's it. It also only works if she hits too. It gives the ability to really injure something really strong on the first round, true, but most minor enemies will be killed by the sneak attack damage alone without needing the crit.

Yow, yeah it doesn't seem to take social interactions into account at all to balance the racial mechanics, so I'll ignore that for the bugbear as well.


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

Sure but that's a lvl 3 class archetype ability. Wouldn't recommend putting that on a race. Actually now that i re-read, it doesnt sound like you were suggesting that at all :D


Nope, just using it as a bit of comparison, both as to show what kind of abilities are in the game (though racials should rarely compare to class abilities in power) and to show a possible stacking element. However, 10d6 isn't much sillier than 8d6 already is...

Since first round during surprise is hard enough to come by, and you still have to hit in these situations, I'm kind of leaning on making the surprise attack do 2d6. Even the orc ability can let you do an additional 1d12 depending on the wielded weapon, and as I said before the odds of getting a crit is eventually more often than getting a surprise round.

Shoving is interesting, but isn't exactly the most effective of actions so I wouldn't rate it as a very strong racial ability.

So, I'M leaning toward 2d6 surprise attack damage. Any arguments against?


yeah, I think I will. wiiiiink. Seriously, though no complaints here :D


AC 14, HP 44/61, Init +5, P.P. 11, S. DC 16, Insp: 1, HD: 6/9, BI: 0/4, 1st (4/4), 2nd (1/3), 3rd (0/3), 4th (0/3), 5th (1/1) Bard (9)
GM Grey wrote:
(though racials should rarely compare to class abilities in power)

yeah because humans starting with a feat, which is like what? a bundle of class features in 1 thing depending on the one you get? ha ha.

As for the drow thing...

the comparison to tiefling is alright but don't forget:

Trance
Drow weapon proficiency
Keen senses

on top of the stuff you mentioned. It's true I get the short end of the stick because the other two elves also get about the same number of perks without any negatives but it keeps it thematic.

GM Grey wrote:
Since first round during surprise is hard enough to come by, and you still have to hit in these situations, I'm kind of leaning on making the surprise attack do 2d6. Even the orc ability can let you do an additional 1d12 depending on the wielded weapon, and as I said before the odds of getting a crit is eventually more often than getting a surprise round.

This was the point I was trying to make with having it scale. It's a hard thing to pull off, so (what's an addtional 1d6 at level 12? the wizard is dropping 6d8 firestorms by then) it's a racial that just quits being worth setting up for and even the damage becomes negligible. where the orc one keeps pace because you start getting more attacks and better chances to pull off crits. This is exacerbated by more powerful enemies basically being unsurprised at higher level without extreme measures.(in combat)

The other thing if you're worried about about the doubling from crits... you're the dm you can just rule the damage is applied after critical damage :P

All that being said, I'm fine with whatever you choose XD

god, Orc-rogue with that kit you mentioned. Auto crit boom!


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

I'm kind of against the 2d6, only because it makes Bugbear the go-to for rogue.

Also, maybe specify that it's only for melee attacks? Otherwise it'd be pretty strong for any class to just pop some kind of ranged attack before the fight for the free weapon+mods+2-12 extra damage at level 1. At least melee you gotta sneak all the way up.

Are we overthinking this? :D


For the character as is? yeah, probably. Defintely not going to be multiclassing into rogue (if Grey is even allowing that :D). For a general 'monster' race to be used as another option in addition to the PHB races? Naw, these are the sorts of things that need to be considered before making a general use race.

Though a rogue build with bugbear would have a 16 dex max, so would need to use both 4th and 8th ability boosts on dex to get 20, whereas a +2dex race rogue could either split up the stats or use a +1dex feat, so there is that to consider


I don't think that a bugbear will be a goto rogue. It's only real advantage is that is has a +1 to dex, which as Mr. Wo says is outclassed by a couple of other races.

Stealth proficiency? Who cares, just spend one of your class proficiencies on it and you are just as good. The surprise attack isn't even a rogue/specific benefit. If you are a reckless barbarian who punches first without the need for sneaking around, suckerpunching your enemies as it were, you get this bonus.


AC 14, HP 44/61, Init +5, P.P. 11, S. DC 16, Insp: 1, HD: 6/9, BI: 0/4, 1st (4/4), 2nd (1/3), 3rd (0/3), 4th (0/3), 5th (1/1) Bard (9)

a 2nd suggestion is that we can modify it on the fly. Try 2d6 and if its just too much slim it down to 1d6. no reason we cant adjust stuff in the moment.

Also Susano, you'd only need 1 atrtibute level to boost it by 2. The PHB states you can apply 2 points to one attribute or 1 to two attribute (max 20 obviously), just a heads up.


I agree, Trissae. Let's start them at 2d6 Surprise Attack damage, and if this seems overpowered we can alter it. If at later levels it seems entirely arbitrary, maybe we can up it a bit


AC 14, HP 44/61, Init +5, P.P. 11, S. DC 16, Insp: 1, HD: 6/9, BI: 0/4, 1st (4/4), 2nd (1/3), 3rd (0/3), 4th (0/3), 5th (1/1) Bard (9)

Sorry guys! I want to post so badly but this phone is so bad for it.


It's cool! If you have the opportunity to at least roll initiative even without further posting, in case others beat you we can get a bit further until you are able to join us.

Edit: 18! Hahah, Do'h!


The die roller is trying to kill you, adrian >.<


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

Tymora is just saving up the good stuff for when it really counts :]


I just have to say, this campaign has been magical so far. The randomness has been suiting my aims without any fudging. I mean, full honesty, I was prepared to fudge some rolls during the caravan raid just to make sure that THE CAMPAIGN WE HAD DISCUSSED ACTUALLY HAPPENED, but I ended up not needing to.

This rat fight also turned out well towards my machinations. Mwa haha.... MWA HAHAHA.

Mr. Wo, get your character confirmed (let me know if you have any Q's to which you need matched A's) and I'll see about soloing you in eventually. We can go over what brings you to where you need to be, though I warn you it'll be a while before you'll introduce yourself yet. It might take just as long to go through your side as it will to go through their side.


Its cool. I now with this format things move slowly and who knows how long it will take to get escaped. I'm confirmed on stats(bit the bullet and went for it. Cant worry too much about if its the ideal stat config for what I want :D), just need to do the background write-up. Luckily spells can wait for a while :D


HP 47/63, AC 18, Init +7, Passive Perception 15, Saving Throws: Str +4, Dex +5, Con +4, Int +0, Wis +2, Cha +2, HD: 1/6 + 2/3, Insp: 0/1, SD: 4/4, AS: 0/1, SW: 0/1

Welp what'd I say about Tymora saving up the good stuff :D On my d20s I rolled: 6, 8, 1, 14, 5, 1, 9, 8, 4. :(

But then 19, 19, 20. lol


Hah. hopefully you can get a couple more good rolls before the streak ends. :D (And ya gotta love getting 23 on a Disadvantaged roll! 23 whilst blindly pawing in the dark. hah!)

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