20 point buy is low? How many points do you start with normaly?
By the comments in the OP i assume they have rolled for stats previously.
In my opinion the point buy system is great. Although the old school rolling dice has works is does tend to produce a very uneven party. Some players may roll high and some low producing 1 or 2 more powerful players which could outshine the others. The point buy system is a lot fairer as all players start off on the same footing, you will either have a balanced character or one that is good in one or 2 areas and poor in others depending how you add the points (tip...try to leave a odd number or 2 so when you level up at level 4 one of the stats will increase for the better).
It also makes the GM's job easier to get the correct challenge for you, if he's running paizo AP's or modules they are all based on on a party of 4 at 15 point buy (15 point buy is considered to be standard, 20 is high fantasy and 25 Epic, 10 is your'e average citizen) so already at 20 point buy you are ahead of the pack. The trouble with dice rolling stats is that everyone can fall between 15-25 point buy or more so there is no consistancy in the ability scores making designing adventures and challenges very difficult for new GM's.
It shouldn't cause any problems though, it just may take some getting used to. My group have always rolled dice so it was a bit of a shock to do the point buy, but if you are careful and don't try for too many high stats then it will all be OK (you don't really need anything above 16 at 1st level to be honest).
If you are unfamiliar with point buy you can use this point buy calculator to do the math for you.
Punch in some numbers and see how it goes.
It is hard to suggest something without knowing if you want to be melee or ranged (or a switch hitter) but here are ok stats for a melee Ranger:
STR 16 (+2 racial brings this to 18)
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 10
Plan to put the attribute point at level 12 into WIS (for level 4 spell casting), and put the rest into STR.
You could dump INT and/or CHA if you like, but if you are used to rolling that might be a bit of a shock to the system.
Maybe also glance at this guide .
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Long gone are my Melf the Elf characters who had four 18 base stats and a 16 and a 15... The point buy system is designed to make you actually think about character development I think. It intentionally (most days) throws an ODD stat at you (like a 13) so you think about 4th level when you get your first stat point... do you put it to 14, or start working that 18 to a 20?
That said, while I am a little nostalgic for the old die rolls, it often unbalanced parties quickly. But sometimes that was the most fun part too... meh, I guess point buy is fine, though it feels pretty cookie cutteresque to me (so did having an entire party of 3 18's etc...). Luckily, there is enough content to not make everyone the same despite similar stat choices.
I am currently running/playing in a campaign with three rogues. None of which are theives per se. We have a ranger wannabe, a intimidator, and a skill monkey. All based on a different primary stat. Similar things can be done with most other classes (a fighter is perhaps the most versatile combat stylist, having the most feats).
So honestly, it comes down to this: in PFS/20 point buy systems you are getting a total of +7 stat modifiers. Distribute them for the most effective use of what they modify and what you want to do. Skill monkeys? INT and then CHA, then DEX, WIS, with STR being the least number of skills affected. Melee? STR or DEX with feats (I suggest DEX with feats for the AC bonus, but if in a party with a healer I often just go damage). Ranged? Dex and Int (and feats). Mage? Int/Wis as needed. 16,16 10x4 is not horrible way to start a mage character. Put the +2 wherever you want (or as race decides)
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I used to play high stay characters a lot, the 20 point buy has taken getting used to but now I like it very much because making a character powerful is now a kind of challenge that brings its own sense of achievement and requires skill more than luck.
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personally, I cannot stand the point buy system. It encourages, nay, mandates min-maxing, and when you turn it into strictly a numbers game, it becomes less fun imo. Playing a melee character usually forces you to dump INT or WIS and that makes me sad, because I like playing melee characters with high INTs for more varied skills that I can offer my party. "But, it's a 20-point buy and we need someone who can swing a damn sword, so no INT for you!!!!"- says the rest of my party.
The past few games I've played, and now as a GM, I've found pre-set stat arrays make for better characters that don't have to worry about balancing issues, and don't have to dump stats completely to be effective.
My players all get 18 16 15 13 12 10, and can put them wherever they like
I also offered the option of 17 17 14 12 11 11, or all 15's
In the Point Buy System, none of these sets of stats are equal, but in actual play they balance out.
20 point buys are difficult to balance MAD characters in like the ranger, my best advice is to go for 17's and not 18's, as they cost a lot less points, and if you really value stats as much as you seem to, pick a race that can benefit your class. The absolute best race to balance some MAD stats is the Versatile Human as Dual Talent allows you to boost 2 different ability scores by 2. You get no other racial benefits, incliding losing out on the feat, but you won't get more versatile stats from any other race, besides a cheesed up Aasimar.
If you want to play a ranger, you need a bare minimum 15 DEX, and personally I would also get a 15 WIS. They are your 2 most important stats, as rangers need high DEX for archery, or for two-weapon fighting, and they don't have heavy armor proficiency. WIS controls your 2 most important skills (Perception and Survival) and your spellcasting later on. And I would buy them at that, not use racial modifiers for it. STR and CON are next in importance, respectively, as STR controls your damage output, and the best rangers don't need to max out on HP since they are meant to be dodgy, hit avoiding, mobile fighters.
Myself, I prefer the switch hitter build, and I buy 15's in all STR, DEX, and WIS, dump CHA to 7, and pump CON to 13, playing a Dual Talent Human, I pump STR and DEX to be both 17 and depending on what type of combat you face and your necessity, boost them at lvls 4 and 8 respectively. lvl 12 you can choose between CON and WIS, since by then you may actually care about the bonus spell from having a +3 WIS, or about extra HP.
Best of luck.
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I tend to like games where GMs let me roll 4d6 x6, but that's because I have a great tendency to roll high. Don't ask me why, I have no idea.
But since playing Pathfinder Society, 20 point buy is the standard and it's not too tough to adjust.
Pick the important abilities for your class - for rangers I think that'll be WIS and DEX? Then decide what's less important, probably CHA. Don't start with less than a 12 CON if you want the character to live, ideally 14.
Balance your stats out around those guidelines.
Min-maxing is referring to an 18 (or 20) high stat and a 7 low stat, I'd recommend doing this only if you feel your character is going to be underpowered if he/she doesn't, otherwise you're entering munchkin territory.
Min-maxing is referring to an 18 (or 20) high stat and a 7 low stat, I'd recommend doing this only if you feel your character is going to be underpowered if he/she doesn't, otherwise you're entering munchkin territory.
I second this and would not recommend it, the Druid in my group decided on an 18 stat for str and 15 for wis keeping a fairly high char. No idea why but he gave himself an 8 in dex even when I said are you sure about this. He suffered a lot in the early levels as he tended to wade in to combat and although he hit well if he got hit...he got hit badly to the point where he died once. Also his skills suffered too S&S needs pretty good acrobatics and climb early on, with him in the minuses for those skills (he also wore hide armour adding even more penalties) it was very dangerous for him.
Point buy makes you think more and to be honest from the feedback from the players they enjoyed the learning curve
The other players were very careful with the point buy favouring a more even spread with no scores below 10. Needless to say they faired better.
So Advice..just be careful where you add the stats and you will be fine you need to think what it will impact if you have a low ability score and how you want to play you're charcter,
Its not much of an issue beyond level 3 or 4 as wealth and magic items can boost the stats or make things easier anyway.
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thank you this exactly! times a million. it one of the worst things to ever happen to the game, and build optimizers benefit the most, as it calls for the same stale, dried up, cliche, unoriginal no RP character to be made again and again.personally, I cannot stand the point buy system. It encourages, nay, mandates min-maxing, and when you turn it into strictly a numbers game, it becomes less fun imo. Playing a melee character usually forces you to dump INT or WIS and that makes me sad, because I like playing melee characters with high INTs for more varied skills that I can offer my party. "But, it's a 20-point buy and we need someone who can swing a damn sword, so no INT for you!!!!"- says the rest of my party.
Stormwind fallacy much?
Stale dried up cliche unoriginal no RP characters has more to do with the player playing them and not the stats behind them.
My battle cleric of Gorum makes for great RP, despite making the point buy system bleed in terms of maximizing return on points. 9 Dex and 7 Int (yeah, double dump on stats) all so I could get the huge strength (18 after mod) and good wis needed to be a proper battle cleric. I play her as dumb jock only interested in combat, her small stature (I rolled 4'11') is a sore point and she has a chip on her shoulder about it. She only will fight opponents who will fight back (not CE) but has no problem antagonizing people into wanting to fight (so not good either). Gets easily bored by social situations (lack of social skills other than intimidate) and doesn't like situations that don't call for battle (low number of skill points). Only uses spells that help her and others fight better (buffs and condition removal), and feels that healing in combat is cheating (but is fine with it after the fight is over). Finds range combat distasteful (not very good at it, similar to how jocks can be regarding sports they don't play), but respects people who are specialized in it. I've got a good background story written for her, but since its a PFS character it doesn't every come up (other than through her trait selection).
On the topic at hand, I move to point buy because I had the problem of underpowered/overpowered charaters. The guy who rolled up the +4 total bonus character would suck, and the guy who got lucky with the +12 would rock. I would say reroll till you get at least a +8, but that would often be time consuming or result in even more 12+ total bonus character (which would demolish the adventures I was running). Also with the caps and bottoms of stat bonus it would hurt players who rolled above average at everything but nothing actually good compared to the guy who rolled extremes on both ends. Eventually I just realized that a point buy was the only way to enforce parity without having to spend far too long watching rolls (and if you don't watch the rolls you end up with statistically unlikely numbers of 18s...).
With point buy all characters have equal opportunity to make good characters. It does make certain MAD characters more difficult to build however, but that is due to poor design of the class more than anything else (also you don't really need an 18 most of the time, that +1 bonus over a 16/17 isn't a deal breaker, it's 1 result out of 20 when you roll, or 1 damage).
thank you this exactly! times a million. it one of the worst things to ever happen to the game, and build optimizers benefit the most, as it calls for the same stale, dried up, cliche, unoriginal no RP character to be made again and again.personally, I cannot stand the point buy system. It encourages, nay, mandates min-maxing, and when you turn it into strictly a numbers game, it becomes less fun imo. Playing a melee character usually forces you to dump INT or WIS and that makes me sad, because I like playing melee characters with high INTs for more varied skills that I can offer my party. "But, it's a 20-point buy and we need someone who can swing a damn sword, so no INT for you!!!!"- says the rest of my party.
Stormwind fallacy much?
Stale dried up cliche unoriginal no RP characters has more to do with the player playing them and not the stats behind them.
My battle cleric of Gorum makes for great RP, despite making the point buy system bleed in terms of maximizing return on points. 9 Dex and 7 Int (yeah, double dump on stats) all so I could get the huge strength (18 after mod) and good wis needed to be a proper battle cleric. I play her as dumb jock only interested in combat, her small stature (I rolled 4'11') is a sore point and she has a chip on her shoulder about it. She only will fight opponents who will fight back (not CE) but has no problem antagonizing people into wanting to fight (so not good either). Gets easily bored by social situations (lack of social skills other than intimidate) and doesn't like situations that don't call for battle (low number of skill points). Only uses spells that help her and others fight better (buffs and condition removal), and feels that healing in combat is cheating (but is fine with it after the fight is over). Finds range combat distasteful (not very good at it, similar to how jocks can be regarding sports they don't play), but respects people who are specialized in it. I've...
Again, I dislike point buy because it encourages min maxing, it also doesn't allow for characters to invest much into their non primary stats, and most classes lose out because of it
Again, I like when the Dm hands out stats, recently I've done the 18 16 15 13 12 10
And no one has complained about it
I'm also in a campaign where the dm is allowing 18 18 16 16 14 14 and full hp
He's also warned us that it will be a tough campaign
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You dislike min/maxing, but with those stats, it seems you certainly like max/maxing.
I like having the cake in my tum-tum and on my plate at the same time, as well.
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personally, I cannot stand the point buy system. It encourages, nay, mandates min-maxing, and when you turn it into strictly a numbers game, it becomes less fun imo. Playing a melee character usually forces you to dump INT or WIS and that makes me sad, because I like playing melee characters with high INTs for more varied skills that I can offer my party. "But, it's a 20-point buy and we need someone who can swing a damn sword, so no INT for you!!!!"- says the rest of my party.
Personally I loathe rolling for ability scores. It results in characters whose powers are more a product of randomness than design, while having no impact whatsoever on optimization. Playing a two-handed fighter? It doesn't matter whether you're using point buy or rolling for abilities, you're probably going to put your highest ability in Strength. The only difference is that a rolled character will have general power that's randomized compared to standardized, resulting in both sore feelings between players and possible alterations of your character concept (Playing a strong silent type but your lowest roll is a 12? Looks like you've gotta have a strong Charisma score, sucker).
The past few games I've played, and now as a GM, I've found pre-set stat arrays make for better characters that don't have to worry about balancing issues, and don't have to dump stats completely to be effective.
My players all get 18 16 15 13 12 10, and can put them wherever they like
I also offered the option of 17 17 14 12 11 11, or all 15's
In the Point Buy System, none of these sets of stats are equal, but in actual play they balance out.
These are effectively point buys. They come out to 39, 35, and 42 point buy. The only difference (aside from massively inflated character power) is that they give you much less control over your ability scores. With these options it is impossible to make a character with a flawed ability score. In a world running off of this system there is no such thing as an un-charismatic hero, an unwise hero, an unintelligent hero, etc.
To the OP: How you build your character varies greatly based on what you want to do with them. Rangers can fulfill several roles, and it's difficult to give you good advice without knowing what you have in mind. That said...
Try and make sure most of your ability scores are even numbers. An odd ability score does nothing for you, so in most cases it's not worth it to spend points to increase a score to an odd number. Exceptions include but are not limited to meeting feat prerequisites (13 Str for Power Attack), using leftover points, or having an ability score you intend to increase through levels (such as a 17 in Str or Dex which you intend to increase at 4th level).
Don't over-emphasize Wisdom. Wisdom is the casting statistic of Rangers, but their save DCs are largely irrelevant due to being 4 level casters, reducing the impact of a high casting score. You still need to have at least a 10 + the spell level to cast a spell, so plan for this. Bear in mind you can qualify through equipped magical items, level up increases, and inherent bonuses. A good Wisdom score is usually 12 or 14.
Dumping an ability score below 10 to gain more points can be a valid, useful way to get more of an edge out of point buy. However, it's not necessary to make characters that are "powerful enough". Starting ability scores become less and less relevant as you become higher level, so don't sweat small losses of points. It's more important that your ability scores meet your concept than that they're optimal for combat.
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thank you this exactly! times a million. it one of the worst things to ever happen to the game, and build optimizers benefit the most, as it calls for the same stale, dried up, cliche, unoriginal no RP character to be made again and again.
Point buy doesn't make unoriginal characters. Unimaginative players make unoriginal characters.
Powerful meathead fighters dumping Wis and Cha? That's cool.
Dominate and then kill a few players after beating their opposed Cha check. If they have any decency and compassion for their fellow players, they'll stop. If not, the other players will solve the problem for you.
/griiiiinnns
Resources spent on shoring up deficiencies (assuming they live to that point) are resources not spent on boosting strengths. It all works out, eventually.
personally, I cannot stand the point buy system. It encourages, nay, mandates min-maxing, and when you turn it into strictly a numbers game, it becomes less fun imo. Playing a melee character usually forces you to dump INT or WIS and that makes me sad, because I like playing melee characters with high INTs for more varied skills that I can offer my party. "But, it's a 20-point buy and we need someone who can swing a damn sword, so no INT for you!!!!"- says the rest of my party.Personally I loathe rolling for ability scores. It results in characters whose powers are more a product of randomness than design, while having no impact whatsoever on optimization. Playing a two-handed fighter? It doesn't matter whether you're using point buy or rolling for abilities, you're probably going to put your highest ability in Strength. The only difference is that a rolled character will have general power that's randomized compared to standardized, resulting in both sore feelings between players and possible alterations of your character concept (Playing a strong silent type but your lowest roll is a 12? Looks like you've gotta have a strong Charisma score, sucker).
These are effectively point buys. They come out to 39, 35, and 42 point buy. The only difference (aside from massively inflated character power) is that they give you much less control over your ability scores. With these options it is impossible to make a character with a flawed ability score. In a world running off of this system there is no such...The past few games I've played, and now as a GM, I've found pre-set stat arrays make for better characters that don't have to worry about balancing issues, and don't have to dump stats completely to be effective.
My players all get 18 16 15 13 12 10, and can put them wherever they like
I also offered the option of 17 17 14 12 11 11, or all 15's
In the Point Buy System, none of these sets of stats are equal, but in actual play they balance out.
I think you are trying too hard to defend the point buy system, how much 'control' does a player not have with those stats and how many options does he lose?
the point is to have the decent stats you need to be an effective character, and still have positive modifiers leftover, sorry if you disagree.When I play, and when I GM, my players rarely want negative stats, but if one of them wanted to play a 'flawed' character I would not be opposed to it. But mandating a flaw to be effective is not flavorful, It gets annoying when you are playing a 15 point buy and my paladin cannot afford enough ranks to be a decent party face or take feats that require an INT of 13 because I really needed a +2 to my CHA.
Higher point buys naturally are easier to play and less constrictive, but lower point buys that are set as standard in the CRB make it impossible to spread your stats out and have anything more than a +1 or +2 in you most important stats.
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A 40 point buy stat array is ridiculous. The NPCs and monsters are designed around a 3-15 point buy, why would even a 35 point buy character make even the slightest sense?
Wanting to play a 14 CHA fighter? Sure go ahead. Want to not be stupid? Sure, the combat expertise/intimidate fighter is viable after all. Still want to have high strength and con without dumping wisdom or dex? Uhh.... Munchin much?
The game is designed around a 15 point buy (or standard array that is effectively 15 points). Messing around with this changes the dynamics of the CR system. Wanting anything higher than a 20 point buy is either being a bit power gamey, or straight up munchin in the case of the 40 point buy equivelent stat arrays/rolled arrays.
Now If you want to have god like or only good rolled stats (how often do you hear about players who actually go 1-20 with a bad roll?) go ahead, play the character with only strengths and no penalties... Just don't think anybody is impressed by it. Besides, wanting to spread your stats around and still be amazing at your core purpose doesn't always do that much. A wizard with 14 strength is just as likely to be a melee combatant as a the wizard with 8 strength.
I think you are trying too hard to defend the point buy system, how much 'control' does a player not have with those stats and how many options does he lose?
"Trying too hard to defend" it? What? I'm stating my opinion and providing evidence for why I feel the way I do. If that's somehow offensive to you... I'm not sure what to say.
the point is to have the decent stats you need to be an effective character, and still have positive modifiers leftover, sorry if you disagree.
What point are you referring to?
When I play, and when I GM, my players rarely want negative stats, but if one of them wanted to play a 'flawed' character I would not be opposed to it. But mandating a flaw to be effective is not flavorful, It gets annoying when you are playing a 15 point buy and my paladin cannot afford enough ranks to be a decent party face or take feats that require an INT of 13 because I really needed a +2 to my CHA.
That's interesting. My personal experience is quite a bit different than yours. My groups (both the group I'm currently GMing for and groups I've played in in the past) have never used stat rolling. Pretty much every player has been a vocal opponent of rolling for stats because it takes control out of the player's hands. It's not because they "might not get that 18 they wanted" or in most cases even a mechanical reason, but because rolling (or using arrays) limits what concepts you have available.
With point buy you're free to use any array you want. Anything from 18/16/10/7/7/7 to 13/13/13/12/12/12, you've got the freedom to build a character that fits the concept. If you roll for statistics or use a pre-built array, some of that control is lost. For example, the array you provided with all 15s. What if a player wants to reduce some of those 15s to increase a couple of other abilities to 16 in exchange? That option is simply gone. You can't have a character that's "Exceptional in 2 abilities and above average in 4". That choice is gone, and if I want to play a character that mechanically or thematically needs those scores, I simply cannot.
Higher point buys naturally are easier to play and less constrictive, but lower point buys that are set as standard in the CRB make it impossible to spread your stats out and have anything more than a +1 or +2 in you most important stats.
I disagree about higher point buys being easier to play or less restrictive. Higher point buys mean more powerful characters, but the concepts you can build with them remain relatively the same (Unless you want high scores in everything, but we're talking reasonable players here not Mary Sues and Gary Stus). I've built plenty of NPCs using standard methods, and 3 point buy is plenty for meeting a concept.
You'll survive Sarin, 20 pb may seem a bit low, but you still have strengths and weaknesses, just not all strengths (average 15, yeah baby! Ha ha, nope, not quite with 20 pb).
20 points is "High Fantasy", somewhat above the norm. You should be fine on that.
It depends what sort of ranger you want and what level you expect to play to: setting aside the archetypes, the basic types are switch-hitter archer and TWF. Archer is probably better. Either way, 20 points is plenty.
Human Archer: s15 d15+2 c14 i10 w13 ch8. Bump Dex, then Str, then Wis. You can cope with lower con here because you won't see so much melee.
Human TWF: s15+2 d14 c14 i12 w13 ch8. Bump Str at 4th, Wis at 8th or 12th for spellcasting.
In either case, Int and Cha are fairly unimportant. You get enough skill points to be useful and have no very major Cha abilities. I wouldn't dump either completely at 20 points; you don't need to. Wis is a better but really doesn't matter all that much because you don't get spells of any significant level and very few of them have saving throws. Will save, Perception and Survival are good of course, but don't dump the skill points that come with Int to get a mere +1 to a couple of skills.
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Advocates of PB, please make me a wizard (15pt buy) as you would if you were going to play the character.
Then please make me a ranger (15pt buy) that is built for his role as a combatant, can utilize all his class features like 4th lvl spells, and isn't stupid or a social misfit that you explain by him being a recluse that has left society behind.
Wizard: +2 Int
1014
13
16
12
10
Ranger: +2 Str
16
13
14
10
12
10
...wait, what I am proving now?
Where did this idea that if you dont start with an 18 or 20 your doing it wrong come from? I have to say, I am so glad I don't play with people like that. We have never had someone try throwing a 7 down durring point buy game, unless it was a boarderline joke character.
Where did this idea that if you dont start with an 18 or 20 your doing it wrong come from? I have to say, I am so glad I don't play with people like that. We have never had someone try throwing a 7 down durring point buy game, unless it was a boarderline joke character.
It comes from high powered games and low powered characters. If balance is an issue on the DM's side of things, then a higher point buy is necessary.
Personally, the only time I actually buy an 18 is when I am playing a full SAD caster class that gives me more spells, higher DCs, and makes it less important to buy magic gear and doesn't force me to take Spell Focus early on.
Normally, in lower Point Buys I buy a couple of 15's, or 14's, for higher games I buy 15's and one 16.
On Tri's stats up there, he dumped nothing below 10, while admirable, I still wouldn't run it that way. I am not scared to dump stats that I genuinely don't use, especially physical stats. I have never needed STR as a wizard, even for carrying capacity. You are going to tell me I am playing the game wrong if I waste my valuable points in a Point Buy System if I dump this useless stat so I can have better stats that I actually need?
Segging from that, I dislike the Point Buy system in pathfinder, a lot. the points cost a lot more than they should, and scale wrong imo. Even stats should always be more expensive than odd stats, here's how I would do a point buy.
8 = -3 points
9 = -2 points
10 = 0 points
11 = 1 point
12 = 2 points
13 = 3 points
14 = 5 points
15 = 6 points
16 = 8 points
17 = 9 points
18 = 12 points
7's are no longer a necessary factor, since you don't need to dump stats that far to get better ones.
In case anyone is stumped on how I determined this, each odd stat is only worth one point more than the even stat before it, but the next even number is 2 points, then 3 points, and if we let them buy higher than 18's the next jump to an even number would be 4 points.
Sample 15 point buy characters:
Elton, the Wizard
STR 8 (-3)
DEX 14 (5)
CON 13 (3)
INT 18 (12)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 9 (-2)
Aaron, the Ranger
STR 15 (6)
DEX 15 (6)
CON 12 (2)
INT 10 (0)
WIS 13 (3)
CHA 9 (-2)
Johan, the Fighter
STR 18 (12)
DEX 14 (5)
CON 14 (5)
INT 8 (-3)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 8 (-3)
John, the Paladin
STR 15 (6)
DEX 12 (2)
CON 12 (2)
INT 13 (3)
WIS 8 (-3)
CHA 14 (5)
Riley, the Cleric
STR 10 (0)
DEX 12 (2)
CON 12 (2)
INT 10 (0)
WIS 17 (9)
CHA 12 (2)
Now imagine how much less people would complain if these characters were in a 20 point buy like PFS.
Elton, the Wizard
STR 8 (-3)
DEX 16 (8)
CON 14 (5)
INT 18 (12)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 9 (-2)
Aaron, the Ranger
STR 16 (8)
DEX 16 (8)
CON 13 (3)
INT 10 (0)
WIS 13 (3)
CHA 9 (-2)
Johan, the Fighter
STR 18 (12)
DEX 14 (5)
CON 14 (5)
INT 10 (0)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 9 (-2)
John, the Paladin
STR 16 (8)
DEX 12 (2)
CON 12 (2)
INT 13 (3)
WIS 8 (-3)
CHA 16 (8)
Riley, the Cleric
STR 10 (0)
DEX 12 (2)
CON 12 (2)
INT 11 (1)
WIS 18 (12)
CHA 13 (3)
Opinions?
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The point buy system is wonderful.
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Just go with the flow and give it a try. Sounds like you had a generous rolling system that allows for generally higher, if non-optimized stats. In the end, it is n't stats that determine how memorable a character is, but rather how you play them. The stats are just a part of the structure on which you build a character.
In general point buy appeals to:
-- young whippersnappers whose youths were corrupted by WoW and anime :)
-- players for whom balance within the party is very important
-- players who come to the table with a specific concept in mind that they want to play
-- players who enjoy optimization
-- GMs who want to have a predicatble level of power for the PCs
In general rolling appeals to:
-- old farts like me who can't get over their "glory days" :)
-- players who welcome more randomness into their character creation and the resulting wider spread of stat arrays and could care less about absolute balance within the party
-- players who are happy to play whatever character the die roll produces rather than having a single concept in mind
-- players who dislike playing or feeling like they are being forced to play characters with dump stats
-- GMs who are comfortable with adjusting encounters to relfect the resultant PC power
As you may guess, I personally prefer rolling for characters, for a wide variety of reasons. That doesn't mean point buy is bad or wrong. It just appeals to a different type of person than I am.
thank you this exactly! times a million. it one of the worst things to ever happen to the game, and build optimizers benefit the most, as it calls for the same stale, dried up, cliche, unoriginal no RP character to be made again and again.personally, I cannot stand the point buy system. It encourages, nay, mandates min-maxing, and when you turn it into strictly a numbers game, it becomes less fun imo. Playing a melee character usually forces you to dump INT or WIS and that makes me sad, because I like playing melee characters with high INTs for more varied skills that I can offer my party. "But, it's a 20-point buy and we need someone who can swing a damn sword, so no INT for you!!!!"- says the rest of my party.
Yeah, no. One's ability to RP creatively and one's stat preference are completely unrelated.
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On Tri's stats up there, he dumped nothing below 10, while admirable, I still wouldn't run it that way. I am not scared to dump stats that I genuinely don't use, especially physical stats.
Neither am I. But I do find having nothing below a 10 aesthetically pleasing. Now, if I'm playing the big dumb brute, a 7 Int and Cha is just good justification for the roleplay. And I do love my big dumb brutes, in appropriate doses.
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The wizard is predictable, int highest to accomplish his class features, then his left over points go into the stats that bump his saves. Sure you can rp that character, my point is so is everyone else that is playing a PB wizard. What if you wanted to be a magician oozing charisma?
The ranger can't cast his 4th lvl spells, and what if you envisioned him as an expert tactician or a prince bread and raised for leadership but banished from his home? Your ranger looks exactly like every other ranger every other PB game is running, again you can RP that and be the most descriptive guy at the table, but it's going to be the Tarantino version of a B movie.
You want a charismatic wizard, swap the Wis with Cha. If you're really dead set on it, move the racial bonus to Cha as well.
You say the Ranger can't cast his 4th level spells. Well, the wizard can't cast his 9th, why the double standard? He has 13 levels to pick up a +2 to Wisdom.
If your Ranger/Wizard looks exactly like every other Ranger/Wizard, either you are ONLY looking at his stats, or you aren't roleplaying him any different.
If PB is superior
If.
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If your Ranger/Wizard looks exactly like every other Ranger/Wizard, either you are ONLY looking at his stats, or you aren't roleplaying him any different.
No see my wizard's name is Gabdalf not Gandalf and his robes are are ecru, not white
totally different
oh yeah his beard is also totally longer