Sundown: Golarion's Wild West

Game Master Bilbo Bang-Bang

Well folks, welcome to Sundown. We'll get to hammering out the rules we
want to stay and those we don't along with finishing up character development ect. Just pop in let me know you are still in the saddle.

glad to be on board, looking forward to the game!

I'm in. Let's see what havoc firearms can do.

Hoo-rah, will polish up my Polish over the weekend and have Edvard ready to ride his Mastiff into the sunset ;)

(Arknight here)

Yeeee hah! Looking forward to this. :)

hit point roll for 2nd level

1d10 ⇒ 5

Edvard is now profiled... though it's empty at present and I need to fill it up with all the good stuff.

DMBB - would you allow me a small amount of flexibility for my mastiff mount? - essentially just want to re-do the skill and feat selection of the riding dog entry. Mechanically the stats will remain the same, just tweaking the selections.

Eventually I would plan to get Leadership and make my mount my cohort so that he can advance in HD and be less squishy.

Howdy Folks, Glad to Be here! So what all classes did we end up with, from what I can see so far we have 2 gunslingers, a Preacher, a Cavalier and a ninja. What am I missing?

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My two-cents on the rules as a DM who runs a modern firearm heavy Pathfinder game:Use the Defense Bonus alternate rule from Unearthed Arcana. Armor still works the same way, but it makes the firearms rules less deadly without changing the way anything works. If you want I can post an extremely long and detailed thing I wrote trying to convince someone else of this point.

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I will have stats and an alias up probably eight hours from now.

Sounds good, Mark.

Jelani, The cavi is actually a Dragoon and we are missing our bring back the magic Nethys cleric.

Hahaha, I will look at those rules. I understand they are well liked by many. The nice thing is if sommething isn't working the way we thought it would, we will just change it so that it does.

Take your time getting your character tweaked. We have till next weekend, maybe sooner, to get things really rolling. I want the rules hammered down on the important stuff before we get moving and then end up bogged down by a lot of re-adjusting mid combat.

Alright, I will post a detailed explanation of why we should use the Defense thing when I get home. The main reason is to preserve the Pathfinder feel (multiple combats a day, kick down the door sword and sorcery gaming), if you don't use it the game changes to feel more like a Horror/Mystery RPG and combat becomes extremely deadly (especially at low levels).

Edit:I guess if everyone is cool with combat being deadly, then we can keep the rules as written. Just changes the feel of the game is all.

Hi all, Hope I'm fashionably late. 1d6 ⇒ 4 Hp for 2nd lvl.

Preacher-man got a profile up.

2nd level HP: 1d10 + 2 ⇒ (10) + 2 = 12 Hells, yeah!

Here's my argument for using the Defense bonus rules:

Now to get to work on that Alias...

HP for me: 1d10 ⇒ 7
HP for mastiff: 2d8 ⇒ (8, 3) = 11

"Good evening gentlemen. Anyone fancy a game of chance?" says a tall man in a nice jacket, before rolling an eight sided die onto the table...

2nd level HP 1d8 ⇒ 6 Not bad...

Here's my alias (Jelani). Almost done with him, still needs equipment and proof-reading. Finish it later tonight.

How does everyone else feel about that approach? Keep in mind magic items are extremely rare and magic users are too. So magic armor, rings and all that other stuff just going to available.

What about crafting magical items ect? With the starting money I had picked up a wand of cure light and some scrolls/potions is that ok?

I am going to let the items acquired at creation go as it reflects your career to this point. Item creation is out.

Including Scribing scrolls? I will have to adjust my character a bit if that is the case.

If it's low magic I think it's even more reason to use it.

The issue that I'd have with the approach as put forward by Jelani is that no-one would ever wear armor at all. As it would negate your defense bonus to touch AC. While it might make sense for full plate, it doesn't for the lower end light armors - such as studded leather.

Masterwork studded leather has an armor check penalty of zero - which means it is mechanically the same as wearing clothes. But under the defense bonus system as put forward by Jelani in his post - you would pay for that little +3 Armor bonus by losing a larger and more beneficial defense bonus.

I would like armor to still be relevant in some way, and not all of the foes we face will be gun wielders.

The other question would be - if defense bonus applies equally to touch and normal AC, how are guns any different from bows in that system?

Also, as an Australian, it would be criminal to not point out that armour was effective against guns right up until the turn of the 19th century.

Case in Point :P

How about the 1/2/3 DR scheme given for the fighter archetype Armor Master? Anyone proficient in an armor gets that bonus. In the tropics of Sargarva, heavy armor is already going to face its own issues with heat. This game will be more about finding cover when the shooting starts. Are we over thinking this? The Zulus took on well armed members of the Crown and put it on them with no armor at all other than a shield and courage.

It seems that a breastplate would be the top armor of choice in a world of high-end firearms.

The 1/2/3 DR works. Even with modern firearms and specialized ammunition, armor is still used on a regular basis, from something as simple as a vest to full body armor. Just about anything that reduces the shock waves of the projectile will have a benefit in preventing some damage. Check the articles and books by Massad Ayoob, the articles can be found online at various sites.

How about the 1/2/3 DR scheme given for the fighter archetype Armor Master? Anyone proficient in an armor gets that bonus. In the tropics of Sargarva, heavy armor is already going to face its own issues with heat. This game will be more about finding cover when the shooting starts. Are we over thinking this? The Zulus took on well armed members of the Crown and put it on them with no armor at all other than a shield and courage.

It seems that a breastplate would be the top armor of choice in a world of high-end firearms.

If we're proficient we just get it, or we still need to be wearing armor?

Wearing the armor. It seems like a blanket DR might further lessen the use of armor, but it does make an interesting idea.

Alright, we'll see how this goes. But I'm betting you're going to regret it when we are killing monsters 2 or 3 over our CR with ease, and you have to start redoing the stats of everything we fight.

Edit:What about archetpyes/feats/whatever that deal with bows? Can I take zen archer levels and have that apply to guns? What about archer or crossbowman

I thought the armor based DR would only be for firearm attacks being resolved against touch AC?

The DR is negligible. DR 1/- (which most or all of us will have, since we'll probably be wearing light armor) is not going to change anything. It's the fact that no one is ever going to miss and that we have x4 criticals that I'm thinking of.

There could be a half-way house of sorts... where you allowed the defense bonus and armor to coexist - but reduced the defense bonus by the armor check penalty.

So a warrior could wear some well fitted leathers without restricting his mobility; but something like chainmail would negatively impact on your touch AC.

Or we could just let the defense bonus and armor coexist - will make everything harder to kill, which is a good thing in my book.

Also, any chance of DM given anti-crit tokens... for the first time we bite a x4 in the face?

These are just some of the ideas being passed around. I don't want to see you guys getting whacked when you face a number of opponents wielding firearms equal to your own or, like Jelani said, being too easily defeated.

Jelani, I am actually looking to depart from the sword and sorcery of our typical games. It seems armor isn't worth anything if we use the defense system. Why would Edvard choose to put on armor if he can charge into into battle without and be better off? I am not saying it is wrong and see the benefit of having people with the choice to avoid being forced into a certain build, but at the same time it is the type of combat one is likely to find themselves in. Conserving ammo while out in the bush and picking your fights is important.

I may be missing the aim here. I will read that thread again and compare it to the DR system and a combo the two.

@Edvard, nice link. It reminds of the fact I wear breast and back to my job, lol.

@Gurn That would be a fine manner to go about using the DR.

2nd that, cool link to the Kelly gang info, thanks Edvard

I agree that the defense bonus negates wearing armor, at least for most people. That's the point of it. In my home game where we use it, one of the characters wears full plate and has a shield. Her touch AC is only like 11, but with the step up, following step and step up and strike feats, she just charges gun wielders and sticks to them like glue. Every time they try to shoot she AOOs them. Its worked well for her so far, and her 26 normal AC is the only thing that keeps the melee monsters I throw at them from completely destroying the squishy gun users. I mean she has a pistol too, but she's just not that good with it.

It doesn't really matter though, I'm willing to try anything. I used to play a game called Fellowship of the White star, it was 3.5 rules. But it was set in 1910-1914 and there was no armor, but plenty of guns. It is also very light magic, and the game ends up being a lot more about trying to avoid fights. That was also the nature of the setting though. I'm not really sure how you want Sundown to feel.

What about my archetype questions?

@Edvard - I also use hero points in the home game to avoid stuff like that, similar to crit tokens but a little more flexible. You can spend two to keep from dying, one will give you a reroll or bonus. You start with your level in hero points and get one each time you level up the way we do it.

I will need to look at how those archetypes would affect the game before giving them the go ahead. It seems funny that the fighter didn't get a gunpowder archetype, doesn't it.

I think that we will stick with the normal armor rules and 1/2/3 DR scheme. Both of the other rule sets seem to have their flaws so we will just go with what we have.

Has everyone checked in ?

I'm wiling to try anything. If it ends up not fitting what we want, we can make a modification at an appropriate point, right?

Yep.

Could try armor gives half its value to touch AC also.

Edvard profile is getting there - all major choices made, now just for filling in the blanks for offense and defense blocks.

Heh - the Zulus did alright... until they met a few stubborn and determined defenders of a certain mission station.

I'm definitely of the mind that lets get trucking, try a couple of encounters on for size and see how we go. We'll figure out soon enough what's working and what isn't.

Oh - and in doing a bit of research my mind is officially blown... All that comes to mind is... needs more gun!

Okay. That sounds like a plan. We'll finish up character creation stuff and get on the road closer to the weekend.

Those are some massive guns. It would have sucked to have been a crewmen on one of them, lol.

One question, since it'll impact someone's build, I'm sure:

How do you want to rule on Rapid Reload? I see two options:

1. Feat stands at written. Rapid Reload has no affect on advanced firearms(because I can't see it making it worse). While initially, this seems a bad choice, it basically means advanced firearms have the Rapid Reload feat built-in to them, which does make sense.

2. Feat reduces reload time to free action. This would keep in the spirit of the feat. It would allow Rifles to be able to be fired as a full-attack.

Option 2 is how it works according to the rules. It lowers the reloading time by one step, since advanced firearms are move actions to reload, it lowers it to a swift. Not quite a free, but close enough. It would allow rifles to be fired twice a round, but no more than that.

Full attack action+swift action to reload one time=1 round worth of actions.

Allowing rifles to be fired twice a round won't have that big an impact on gameplay either, since pepperbox rifles and revolvers exist.

How do you see that? It doesn't say it reduces it by a step. It says it reduces it to a set action. Two-handed firearms get reduced to a standard action to reload. One-handed firearms get reduced to a move action. Am I missing something?

I need to look at the rules for the advance firearms, but given the fact that they are cartridge fed doesn't that make faster reloading the same as using the paper cartridge in muzzleloaders? So using Rapid reload would bump them down another step, correct?

The time required for you to reload your chosen type of weapon is reduced to a free action (for a hand or light crossbow), a move action (for heavy crossbow or one-handed firearm), or a standard action (two-handed firearm). Reloading a crossbow or firearm still provokes attacks of opportunity.

In this instance the feat is specific doesn't mention reducing by a step in RAW. But RAI could be extended to say that was the intent.

I wouldn't have any issues with Rapid Reload working to reduce the reload time by a step.

This is why I asked. :)

Yep - just bringing the specific wording in thread to save our DM a bit of rules referencing time ;)

I was going from

An alchemical cartridge is a prepared bundle of black powder with a bullet or pellets, sometimes with more exotic material added, which is then wrapped in paper or cloth and sealed with beeswax, lard, or tallow. There are many types of alchemical cartridges, the simplest being the paper cartridge—a simple mix of black powder and either pellets or a bullet. Alchemical cartridges make loading a firearm easier, reducing the time to load a firearm by one step (a full-round action becomes a standard action, a standard action becomes a move action, and a move action becomes a free action), but they tend to be unstable. The misfire value of a weapon firing an alchemical cartridge increases as listed in each entry.

And that this assumption of what's 'normal' is no longer accurate:

Normal: A character without this feat needs a move action to reload a hand or light crossbow, a standard action to reload a one-handed firearm, or a full-round action to load a heavy crossbow or a two-handed firearm.

So yeah, the feat doesn't specifically address advanced firearms because they are an optional rule. But it has a clear intent, and making the feat do nothing because technology has advanced makes no sense.

If it can allow you to retrieve a paper cartridge, then ramrod it down the barrel, then cock and fire a flintlock pistol all instantaneously, it's absurd to say it wouldn't let you do the same with inserting a bullet into a chamber.

RAI are very clear in this case in my opinion. The developers simply didn't waste limited words by covering advanced firearms as they won't be used by most people. I guess if we want to be RAW nazis then the feat does nothing now, but otherwise...-shrug-

I changed my Domain from Wards to protection since scribing scrolls is not allowed. My position on the fire arm issue is neutral, either way has pros and cons. Once the final ruling is made I may or may not swap out some spells if they are going to be benefical, so far the only shield magic I have is entropic shield since it works on all ranged attacks.

Howdy!

Sorry, haven't posted a lot, but been kind of hectic in RL... I agree with the 1/2/3 DR and think this is going to be a fun game. :)

So then we are saying that it is free action if you take rapid reload, yes.

seems like the feat should have a benefit, there are some pretty amazing reloading skills still on display even today, who is the guy that wins those events every year, Jerry Miculik?