Stones of the Ancients

Game Master Seamus Greenbottle

You read what you wanted and stopped. I said "as dedicated" AND that having the alignment means he chooses alignment specific behavior more often than he chooses to walk away instead.

That second half is the part you're ignoring and trying to justify as not being binding. The problem is, we're talking about a rules system, not flavor text. The rules say that you gain an alignment based on your normal behavior.

Your normal behavior is your most common behavior.

In order to be either Evil or Good, your character has chosen specific alignment-based behavior through 51% (or more) of the opportunities which have presented themselves.

THAT is why I dislike the alignment system. I can't describe a personality and try to play it without there being mechanical consequences. An Anti-Paladin has to choose to do Evil 51% of the time, or he loses access to his class. Dedication to a cause or to a philosophy is not enough, the chosen and displayed behavior over-rides such items.

Again, not my preferred set of mechanics. Not even close. It is just what it is easy to find other people to play . . ..

EDIT:

Assassins are not 100% evil, unless you are talking about individuals who hold the class as opposed to individuals who perform the function. An Assassin who takes out a tyrant who has been squeezing the people and nation, causing harm to everyone except himself, because it is what the people need to have happen in order to live normal lives, is not inherently any more Evil than the party of adventurers who hunt down the Evil Necromancer in his tower and eliminate that threat to the world around them.

EDIT: Assassins are not 100% evil, unless you are talking about individuals who hold the class as opposed to individuals who perform the function. An Assassin who takes out a tyrant who has been squeezing the people and nation, causing harm to everyone except himself, because it is what the people need to have happen in order to live normal lives, is not inherently any more Evil than the party of adventurers who hunt down the Evil Necromancer in his tower and eliminate that threat to the world around them.

I was going to post about Good and Evil being relative (like most things in life), but you covered it. As another example, hunting (and probably killing) goblins that found or stole a tome of ancient stones to give a dragon and avoid their tribe being wiped out is evil from the point of view of the goblins.

The sad part of the alignment system is that the mechanics deny relativism. Either you are doing things for the benefit of others without an expectation of reward, or not. Either you are abusing others for personal gain or entertainment, or not.

Moral relativism doesn't exist in any version of D&D because of the alignment system. Evil and Good are real, detectable things that can be proven to be present or not, making personal opinions irrelevant.

I prefer worlds of grey.

Sorry I didn't mean to ignore what you've said, its just that the word 'dedicated' stuck with me so strongly, so I sort of focused on it and went on with the reply.

Doing evil most of the time "51% of the time" makes sense but sometimes especially when on a quest with others, you really don't have the luxury of acting how you would wish, especially when your choice could end up with your character being jailed or dead, that just doesn't make any sense. If you could get away with it on the other hand, why wouldn't you?

When I mentioned assassins I was actually going for both the class and the actual profession, not someone who'd partake in it to do good. If we take your example of an assassin ending the life of tyrant, he could be evil but simply being paid by people who wish to see this tyrant fall, to them he may be doing something which can be considered good but to himself this is only a job, he doesn't care if his actions free these people or help them, as long as his target is dead and he gets paid he's fine.

I realize my argument is more about the flavor, then the mechanic itself, so I'll just stop here, sorry if I bothered you, I was just stating my opinion on the matter that's all.

@hudsonj and all: Let us go beyond good and evil. Let us go back to our Grecian ancestors where there wasn't even a concept of evil!

Through Pathfinder, we understand Nietzsche!

An assassin who does it for the money is not necessraly Evil, either. What doe she do with the money? What does he do when not "on assignment?"

Generally, that's a very small portion of the individual's activities.

While the paid assassination itself (killing an effectively helpless opponent for personal gain) is pretty clearly an Evil act, we still have that 51% of the opportunities to consider, don't we? If the assassin does nothing else Evil, and even does other Good, then he's not going to have an Evil alignment.

In a system that doesn't try to apply alignment straight jackets, you don't even have this series of questions as part of the system mechanics. You can have them as a philosophical debate, but the D&D family of games makes this conversation MECHANICAL, not philosophical. I find that offensive.

We are expected to have different philosophies and to disagree about the real-world shades of grey, but the system demands that Good an Evil be indisputable mechanical items that we are supposed to see identically, period.

@hutsonj: Okay. Just remember, offense is taken not given. :)

My thoughts on a Chaotic Evil person, or any evil for that matter, in general is, if you know how to play it, you can be both chaotic, and evil, without being the conventional chaotic evil. Thats the whole point of roleplaying; playing with conventional to make the non-conventional.

Cyrus is amused that his philosophy managed to be discussed without any aid from him. Super effective!

It was super effective, I hope your happy! You evil, evil man! : p

Cyrus is amused that his philosophy managed to be discussed without any aid from him. Super effective!

Well played...

Wait! Are the threads on the "messageboards" tab (on the left) chosen like GMail Ads now? I just got this:

Are there good undead in Golarion?
(The content is not really related.)

They are show in order of the most recent answer...

This was an incredibly difficult decsion (as you'll see from how many players I ended up taking anyway).

Would the following please join me in the Discussion tab!

Cyrus Melevin
Daron Vankon
Jai Li
Jarryn Silvertongue
Joshua Dawnblossom
Lukas Halvson
Navarrro Nedraid
Orren Idleveil
Terwin Thanderghast

Thanks to all!

Good luck to you.

Hmmmm this campaign is my third...no, make that my fourth rejection in less than two weeks. I won't even bother asking for the reason, to those who got picked I say enjoy yourselves, to those who didn't(my self included) I say don't let it get you down, at the end of the day you probably didn't get picked because of something miniscule and ultimately biased, the gm like most of us has his own preferences, his own favorite character archetypes and his own ideal group make up, so get out there and start spreading your characters all over the recruitment threads, but if your like me(extremely picky) wait it out, and hope for something better.

Am I stating the obvious? Yeah, but sometimes the obvious is worth repeating. Besides its best to leave on a more positive note, then just leave the thread in awkward silence, right?

Hmm... I heard you say that you would "cry profusely if not picked", but then I see a long post like this? You don't keep your words, hun?

But sure, thanks for explaining me how life works... ^_^

Like I said, I was stating the obvious, but your welcome anyway. : )

Oh one more thing...How do you know I am not crying?

Profusely.

LOL, its been fun talking to you hopefully we'll see each other in another recruitment thread or maybe a game.

Bummer, off to find another game for noro

Had some grrat ideas for interactions / story tie ins for some

Exciting! Certainly seems like you had a hard choice taking 9 players >=D a good problem to have though I suppose.

Good luck to those not picked. There's no shortage of games out there!

Try to enjoy yourselves!

Congratulations and have fun!