There's a reason Sharlavaka nearly choked him. But only nearly.
Pshhhh, we've all become friends in the end, right?
...Right?
...Probably? Depends on if you keep getting Sharlavaka's name right.
Nuthin' shuts a smarmy elf up like tellin' 'im the truth 'bout his behavior in his own language, ya know? 'R a good knife. Good knife shuts 'em up, too.
<wink>
With GM permission, I would like for the Sword Cane to actually be in a walking staff instead of a cane. Purely flavor. The outdoorsman leaning on a staff is far more iconic than one leaning on a cane.
Tamrat has pointed ears? Perhaps Eshenvral will mistake him for some sort of horned...very firey...elf...
Hmmm... probably not, hahah. He'll warm up to them well enough though. Esh is loyal to a fault, even if his captain happens to be a non-elf. He's not a Forlorn, but he's marginally more receptive to them then most his people are these days. While wearing the mask, at least.
Also, Engineering boosting the shields gets called wrong, frequently. The points are evenly distributed around the ship (as much as possible). Generally, we've ruled odd points are assigned to the weakest shied sides first, though the book says front.
This is something I tend to gloss over. There's no reason in my mind you can't move the power where you want it; it's done in scifi all the time. That said, I only spend so much time on such things for enemy vessels.
With GM permission, I would like for the Sword Cane to actually be in a walking staff instead of a cane. Purely flavor. The outdoorsman leaning on a staff is far more iconic than one leaning on a cane.
Permission granted.
So shipboard, we have:
Captain: Tamrat
Pilot: Isis
Science Officer: Esh
Gunner 1: Sharlavaka
Gunner 2: Thalin Shieldbearer
Will we have enough weapons to need a third gunner? or should I offer the third new player Engineer and let Otis retire? Opinions?
Is engineer a position one can have two of? If not, Otis can act as our backup, maybe add a situational bonus to those rolls. No need to do away whim entirely, having more people who knownhow to fix a ship ia good, and him as an NPC is fun too. Same with medic Irene, who I may or may not think is in a relationship with Otis due to the way you've decrived their interactions.
"Oh good. The humans are multiplying. How wonderful."
We can have three less powerful weapons rather than one mega turret, and upgrade each weapon set at level ups. It might make us a little less powerful to start with, but later one having three competent weapons makes for Good Times once we have the points to make them all Heavy and, if direct fire, Linked.
My suggestion would be to build the ship we want, then let each gunner split the points up for whatever toys they wanna grab. If we do switch to the Transport frame we'd have two turrets and a heavy slot up front.
If 3 gunners can shoot repeatedly during a single fight, you are in serious trouble. Assuming the stuff on each arc is linked, of course. If you have multiple distinct weapons per arc, having additional gunners is good.
As for additional Computer/Engineer spots? WHAT MAKES SENSE TO ME is that you SHOULD be able to, just can't both do the same action in the same round. 1 Engineer diverts power, another jury-rigs. 1 Science balances shields, the other locks on a target, for example. Larger ships have multiple stations available for each, right?
PLEASE note that was not based on hard rules.
Sharlavaka, I think it would be better to upgrade to a Transport frame when we have the build points to properly rig both turrets. Plus keeping the maneuverability we have works out.
SV
I saved the double twin turret lasers as per Rando's ruling by swapping out from Shields and Sensors. Do we keep the gyrolasers doubled from 1d8 to 2d8? That means squeezing out more points. Also, added gyrolasers add 10 PCU each to power use. We'd need to invest 5 more points in Power Core to properly supply everything. We can keep Arcane Lab, Tech Workshop, and Battery Charger off line during battles, but that saves only 7 PCUs.
Isis-149 greets Thalin in Dwarvish and asks Tamrat his heritage. She is an android, attractive but wooden, with sparking green eyes, caramel skin with etched circuit designs, and green long hair and eyebrows.
OOC: You guys get full say in ship choices. You can find my last summary if you scroll up. It's mostly fallen to me to suggest possibilities. Oh, and we had a character from the Milky Way Galaxy (Earth), and Mandarin is our secret code language. We can teach it to you, so save a slot from bonus languages or Cultures.
SV
Without going and looking at the build in detail, I can tell you linked twin lasers in the turret is AMAZINGLY deadly in this tier range. First hand experience on that one.
1 additional direct fire in each arc so that a second gunner has something to do will actually be sufficient for now. Seriously. That kind of turret firepower at this tier is honestly that big a deal.
Bigger power plants also net you more shield points when you divert power to the shields. This is something that you know is going to come up over and over again. Don't you?
Had my Scout Troop meeting tonight. Maybe I should print out your ship work and look at it away from the 'puter . . ..
I don't know pretty much anything about the ships in this game personally, I'll have to defer to everyone else's judgment.
The problem with one giant supergun and three gunners is that only one gunner is going to be effective. I, personally, feel that if the gun is that deadly at this level then we're probably going overboard, and it would be better to spend those points on three more tier-appropriate weapons so that everyone on the crew can contribute during the space fights. Having one wonder cannon and the other two firing 1d8 lasers at people isn't really great.
I'm sure it's the most effective weapon, but it's probably not going to be the most fun.
Looked at the ship. Yeah.
So, does the team take turns sleeping in Sickbay, or do they sleep in the chairs at their stations? No crew quarters of any type means no beds . . .. You're roughing it worse than you suggested you were.
You aren't paying the energy cost for 2 weapons in each arc, either.
Yeah. I'll put together a couple of proposed builds after work tonight. One that's built to kill other ships, and one that's built to be a long-term home for fugitives. We'll see if any other focus comes to mind while I work.
Thanks for putting eyes on the ship and catching those, Thalin Shieldbearer.
Looked at the ship. Yeah.
So, does the team take turns sleeping in Sickbay, or do they sleep in the chairs at their stations? No crew quarters of any type means no beds . . .. You're roughing it worse than you suggested you were.
You aren't paying the energy cost for 2 weapons in each arc, either.
Yeah. I'll put together a couple of proposed builds after work tonight. One that's built to kill other ships, and one that's built to be a long-term home for fugitives. We'll see if any other focus comes to mind while I work.
Thalin, my build has crew quarters, albeit good instead of luxurious, but the frame says up to 6 crew. I talked in my last post about how we haven't yet doubled the gyrolasers but I discussed squeezing out points to double the turret twin lasers. Rando has ruled that we only have to mount two weapons but don't have to link them.
SV
Rando has ruled that we only have to mount two weapons but don't have to link them.
SV
Minor point, but technically I ruled that the cost of linking them was the same as just the cost of purchasing both, as a compromise on a rules question. You still have to link them if you want them linked, you just aren't paying more for it.
I do see the crew quarters listed now that I double-check.
Yeah, I just missed the crew quarters when I scanned the build.
Skipping a bunch of the numbers I wrote down while I was sketching this out, it is an attempt to provide basically the same configuration. Give you back what you showed me, basically.
0 Build Points and 7 Power Points left over at the end.
Explorer
Nova Heavy Power Core
M12 Thrusters
Mk 5 Armor
Mk1 Tetranode Computer
3 firewalls? (not sure why you had it, but I kept it)
Good Crew Quarters
Mk4 Defensive Countermeasures
Signal Basic Drift Engine
Arcane Lab
Medical Bay
Smuggler Compartment (no improvements over base expansion bay)
Tech Workshop
Basic Mid-Range Sensors
Medium Shields
Forward Coilgun
Port Coilgun
Starboard Coilgun
Aft Coilgun
Turret Twin Lasers
Battery Recharger
Longarm Anti-personnel weapon
Good Maneuverability (Turn 1)
HP 65
Pilot +0
Computer +2
Ship Combat Rolls +1/+1/+1/+1
AC15+Pilot Ranks+Maneuver Adjustments
TL13+Pilot Ranks+Maneuver Adjustments
DT-
CT13
Shields 100 (F35 P20 S20 A25) recover 4/Min; Divert for 10 SP
No linked weapons, and at least 2 gunners can contribute every round.
Dropping the 3 firewalls would allow improving the sensors to Advanced Medium Range, improving the Computer bonus to +4.
The Mk1 tetranode computer could upgrade to a Mk2 Mononode as an even swap on BP, and dropping the "extra" PP to 2, but it would drop from 4 +1 bonuses per combat round to 1 +2 bonus.
That one's actually a pretty good shipkiller at this tier. Potential average of 32 points dealt in 1 round to 1 opponent. Two good rolls can do critical damage to ships that are our peers twice in a single round.
Do you want me to do another with a little less combat capability but more long-term home?
The above has 6 bunks. Guest quarters would get us to 10 of the same quality, or a dozen open bay style bunks. I think with the NPCs, the group is at 7 right now, yes? Not that the Elf or Android really need SLEEP . . .. So we should be able to survive not having the additional beds.
Esh likely sequesters himself inside a lab most the time anyway, he'll be fine without. Hell, you might as well consider that his room.
Keep the tetranode. By "no improvements over base expansion bay" do you mean no added DC to detect smuggler compartments by scanning? At first blush I would disagree with that. As for the firewalls, I seem to recall that Sharlavaka was worried about hacking.
Just a thought, if we drop the countermeasures and drop the Armor by 1 (or just drop Armor by 2) we can double up our Twin Lasers. Isis adds 6 to AC and TL, so that mitigates. (Remember, Rando said we didn't have to pay to link them.) Also, aft Laser Net was popular for pegging missiles. Flak Thrower might substitute for cheap.
SV
Yes, I mean no additional shielding to prevent scanning.
12 BP (IIRC) for a second Twin Laser
5 BP (IIRC) for a second light hardpoint in a turret
6 BP (again, IIRC) to upgrade it to a heavy hardpoint
Are you sure about how cheap swapping that in will be?
The numbers might be a little off, since I'm working from memory while sitting at work. The relative expense is really not that far off, though. A second twin laser is a serious investment. And I was told we didn't want the second gunner to feel like an also ran.
When I did the Dead Suns ship in this range of tier, we had escape pods and exercise bay and cargo and 1 other CHEAP expansion bay, gyrolasers (like 3 BP each) on the sides (providing secondary arcs fore and aft), coilguns fore and aft, and the linked twinlasers in the turret, with the tier1 armor and countermeasures. We had a combat monster of a ship, but needed to spend time planetside to do things like healing or crafting.
A good base of ooerations takes up BP you need for a combat beast ship.
12 BP (IIRC) for a second Twin Laser
5 BP (IIRC) for a second light hardpoint in a turret
6 BP (again, IIRC) to upgrade it to a heavy hardpointAre you sure about how cheap swapping that in will be?
No, you're right. I forgot about the weapon mount. I guess my superweapon will have to wait till tier 7.
As for expansion bays, I feel Rando's combination science labs with medbay and tech workshop are too valuable to pass up.
Thalin, can you quote me where it says Androids don't sleep? I've been playing an android all this time and I don't recall seeing it.
SV
I did the math on the ship. If you drop Defensive Countermeasures by one to Mark 3 and put a flak thrower in back you break even. Thalin was right about PCU use, but with less Def Count you free up one PCU.
Androids not sleeping is PF, not SF. Another my bad.
Defensive Countermeasures are how you make missiles never get a lock.
Making it easier for missiles to get a lock so that you can add an anti-missile system doesn't seem like a great deal of difference to me. But that's just me. We also don't have the Build Points for the mount and system both if you drop the Countermeasures one rank.
If you want to increase the DC to spot the smuggler's compartment, you have to free up Build Points form somewhere else, again. To get back to the 40 DC you had on your work-up, you would have to free up 4 build points for elsewhere. What would you choose to sacrifice in order to make the hiding spot inside a rebel's home harder to find? If you're willing to go all the way down to open bay quarters, you can get half of it . . ..
Seriously, I tried to keep as much of what you had built as possible, while ensuring two gunners could be fully engaged during starship combat, and staying within cost limits. Trying to put anything you had that I skipped back means dropping something else.
Are flak thrower and Mark 3 defensive countermeasures to make build points work out a done deal? I want everyone's approval on this. Then I'm going to want to discuss Gyrolasers.
Light mount is 3 BP
Flak Thrower is 5 BP
The difference between Mk3 and Mk4 defenses is only 2 BP. That's still 6 BP short. The Mk4 Defenses are only 6 BP total.
Are you talking about dropping the rear offensive weapon entirely? Means we can ignore the cost of the Light Mount, and the Coilgun I had back there is 6 BP, so swapping out the Coilgun for the Flak Thrower refunds 1 BP. Flak Thrower and Coilgun have the same energy use, incidentally, so that means no need to drop the Countermeasures at all, and we regain 1 BP to spend elsewhere.
Heck if we also drop 1 of the redundant firewalls, we can INCREASE the Countermeasures by 1 rank, but we lose an offensive weapon. I'm not sure when we're going to want to point our Aft at the bad guy (so the flak thrower's defensive capabilities can be used) if we're going to give up having an offensive shot at a range greater than 5 in order to do so.
I NEVER want to be that close to someone and in their primary attack arc at the same time.
-----
Heck, looking at the above, if we eliminate BOTH of the redundant firewalls (and do nothing else), we'll have the BP to increase the Countermeasures and only use 2 of the excess 7 power points. I'm really not sure what benefit the extra 2 firewalls are supposed to provide. There's a bunch of the rules I have not dug into like I have the basic ship construction, though. Maybe there's an advantage. I really don't know.
Swapping the P & S coilguns for Gyrolasers drops the weapon range for our side weapons from 20 per increment to 5 per increment, and refunds a total of 6 BP and 0 energy.
They will allow additional gunners to participate (at an attack roll disadvantage) when we have a target in their secondary arc (either 1 F & 1 A, or both to either) or the primary gunners to take an attack penalty on both guns to roll an additional attack.
How would you want to spend those 6BP, given that we only have 5 or 7 energy to go with?
5 BP and 5 Power would swap from the tetranode Mk1 computer and single firewall to a dounode Mk2 and single firewall (with a firewall costing 20% of the computer). Would still leave 1 BP, and 0 or 2 Power. I figure the duo2 and quad1 are a wash benefit wise. 1/20 improvement for 4 rolls is a net 4/20. 2/20 improvement for 2 rolls is 4/20. A wash for "total" benefit, but more likely to be the difference on any given roll.
(The lower Power availability options assume the redundant firewalls being swapped out for better countermeasures, mentioned only for clarity, not mandating.)
Thalin, I don't know what you mean by redundant firewalls. There's only the one. Yes I meant drop the aft coilgun entirely for a flak thrower. Also, I know +1 is only +1, but having almost all crew get a bonus seems nice. Have you done the math by the book yet? I believe at this point we have 8 PCUs left. Since the Arcane Lab, Tech Workshop, and Battery Charger can be left off line during combat, we practically have 15.
I was thinking one port or starboard gyrolaser, doubled to put its damage on par with a plain coilgun. After Rando's ruling that would require 3 points from somewhere. I don't know how married to his firewall Sharlavaka is, or how married the party is to Armor Mk 5. If we drop it to Mk 4, we only lose 1 on AC and we actually get a point of TL back. That frees up 6 BPs.
A single Gyrolaser actually frees 3 BPs without touching Armor, but its damage averages 4.5 to coilgun's 10. Another possibility is to have two (port and starboard?) Gyrolaser emplacements with one standard and the other fire linked. That's a lot of applicable arcs for just 2 gunners. I mean by replacing a side coilgun.
The problem with a Flak Thrower is that it only shoots to a maximum of 5 hexes. That's why we could use a Gyrolaser(s).
I feel like I have to give up on Smuggler Compartment; the DC20 is for passerby Perception checks as well as sensor scans, and I see a typical NPC making that roll at least half the time. If it were just DC 30 that would be minimal. Anyways, I could abdicate for four more "good" crew quarters, rather than have the new guys sleep in Med Bay.
We could put Smuggler Compartment in with the intention of adding to its DC along the line.
SV
Where did you get this assumption that you can turn entire systems off just because, as quick as flipping a switch with no preparation? I don't see anything in the book allowing underpowering the ship like that. It is specifically part of how ship builds are balanced against each other.
A firewall from the computer gear costs 20% of the computer. A distinct anti-hacking system from shipbuilding costs 3BP. I've based my discussions/plans on the keywords used.
We aren't even close to having enough power to stack Gyrolasers.
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I feel like English is being spoken, but I just can't understand a w word of it... Hahah.
Where did you get this assumption that you can turn entire systems off just because, as quick as flipping a switch with no preparation? I don't see anything in the book allowing underpowering the ship like that. It is specifically part of how ship builds are balanced against each other.
A firewall from the computer gear costs 20% of the computer. A distinct anti-hacking system from shipbuilding costs 3BP. I've based my discussions/plans on the keywords used.
We aren't even close to having enough power to stack Gyrolasers.
You're right, when it comes to taking systems off line I just assumed.
About PCU use for linked weapons, the book says "LINKING WEAPONS If you install two of the same direct-fire weapon in the same firing arc, you can link them together so they fire as one. This costs a number of Build Points equal to half the cost of one of the weapons (rounded down) and consumes a negligible amount of PCU." I personally took this to mean that the PCU use stays the same, although if you're used to playing differently you're probably right. Rando?
Esh, Sharlavaka, Thalin, Tamrat, do you want the computer's +1 for four rolls or something with a higher bonus? My vote is that +1 is fine, if only 5%.
And Sharlavaka, how bad do you want firewalls? Did you get the helm hacked in a previous game?
SV
Thalin, if I give up on my cool Smuggler's Compartments in favor of Guest Quarters, that frees up enough PCUs for a sole second Gyrolaser's presumable added energy cost. With Rando's ruling that's +3 BPs for the new mount and 3 for the weapon; 9 including the cost of the original weapon. This would replace a side coilgun that normally costs 6, which means either 3 from someplace or substitute a single gyrolaser for a coilgun on the other side. How would you feel about say, a double starboard Gyrolaser, single port gyrolaser, fore coilgun, turret twin lasers, and rear flak thrower? Isis could simply favor the ship's starboard side.
Of course, gyrolasers firing in multiple arcs comes down to how many weapons can the ship's gunners fire at once. Since Gyrolasers are short range, the penalties stack up quick. Firing in a side arc is -2, the range increment starts up at 6 hexes, and Broadside is -2 or Fire at Will is -4.
SV
I think a higher bonus would be a bit more beneficial.
I think a higher bonus would be a bit more beneficial.
For the same cost we can get a single +2 instead of four +1's. After that points have to come from somewhere.
SV
Or would a single +1 actually be better? I don't really know. I still don't like ship combat in this game to begin with.
About PCU use for linked weapons, the book says "LINKING WEAPONS If you install two of the same direct-fire weapon in the same firing arc, you can link them together so they fire as one. This costs a number of Build Points equal to half the cost of one of the weapons (rounded down) and consumes a negligible amount of PCU." I personally took this to mean that the PCU use stays the same, although if you're used to playing differently you're probably right. Rando?
Double weapons should require double power. I don't see anyway you could put out the extra damage otherwise; it's got to come from somewhere. I think this is the same deal as the BP cost issue; you have to power (and pay for) both the guns; there's no extra PCU expenditure for fire-linking.
I feel like English is being spoken, but I just can't understand a w word of it... Hahah.
I understand it all, but I can't hold it all in my head at the same time the way these two can.
Regarding my New Ship Stats, Thalin, while we don't agree on weapons yet, this should give you numbers. Apparently, Gyrolasers should be 20 PCUs instead of 10, which puts us 2 over. Guest Quarters instead of Smuggler Compartment should put us 1 under.
Thalin, thnx for schooling me on my erroneous thinking. I prefer to go by RAW. I suspect I jump at more beneficial conclusions b/c I like to metagame.
Rando, are we due for a sixth player?
I feel like English is being spoken, but I just can't understand a w word of it... Hahah.
Definitely know how you feel. The minutiae of starship combat flies over my head.
I'm getting better at it, so I understand what's being said - but I have very different design goals in mind when building a vessel, so I'm not sure I'll be much use.
I long since gave up on any computer defences after the badgering I got last time - if it's getting in the way then scrap it.