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Also, I think the issue in your guide (and the reason why I react to it) is that you have a bia that one can feel when reading it. You can have personal preferences, but the goal of a guide is to help people build their character, not to push them towards your style of play.
No kidding? My preferences can be seen in my writing? Imagine that.
So, you can't put Universalist blue and Specialists green as there is not a power level of difference between them.
Sure I can.
Dexterity should be green as it's a secondary attribute to the Wizard.
You're welcome to your opinion.
Gnome and Goblins can't be blue and not Humans, Elves and Hobgoblins as they are all perfectly good choices (well, I question the choice of blue for Goblin).
Yes they can. Look at my guide. I did it, so it's doable.
Spell Blender can't be green while the other choices are blue.
Sure it can. It's easy. Just highlight it green and voila!
I don't see why Druid Dedication is blue when most Dedications aren't.
I did my best to explain it. You're welcome to your own opinion.
And a spell like Force Bolt is not red.
Sure it is. I colored it red. It's red. See?
What you mean to say is that you don't think it should be red. You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and so, it turns out, am I.
It's a perfectly valid focus spell, nowhere close to a bad one.
You should expand your vision on the Wizard and include multiple builds.
I included twenty-four builds in my guide.
You made a considerable work on documenting every options/spells, but for the core options you must be extra careful and make sure that you're not misleading readers (especially the ones who need guidance) into playing what you think is good instead of playing what they want to play.
I think you may need to take a step back and ask yourself why you feel entitled to have my work done your way. I think you honestly don't realize how arrogant and insulting your tone is. If you think you can write a better guide, I look forward to reading it, but I do not think I'm misleading anyone. This work is a distillation of my experience as a player and a GM and I stand by it. As you can see from my exchange with other posters I am more than willing to discuss the ideas presented and even change my mind, but I am not willing to write "SuperBidi's Guide." You can do that yourself. You are also free to post your ideas here for anyone to read and judge. But this conversation? It's over.
Excellent guide. Just a couple of points. First drain bonded item doesn't allow you to cast any spell in your spell book (it must be one prepared and already cast).
Yep. I did say that. Fixed!
Second, personally I'd rate Fear top tier in actual play because of how useful the effect on a successful save is (and if they fail the save Frightened 2 is amazing).
Is it really all that useful to have your opponent frightened (maybe) for one round? I've usually found it to be good (green), but not fantastic (blue).
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Second, personally I'd rate Fear top tier in actual play because of how useful the effect on a successful save is (and if they fail the save Frightened 2 is amazing).Is it really all that useful to have your opponent frightened (maybe) for one round? I've usually found it to be good (green), but not fantastic (blue).
The consensus in the forums up to now has been that fear is one of the most effective spells versus higher level enemies throughout a caster's career. The main reason for that is that it is almost always effective. Will is most often the worst saves creatures have. It's also one of the only ways to effectively use a first level slot proactively. Small bonuses and penalties are just good in this edition.
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If you're not a spell attacker (and therefore relying on True Strike a lot), Fear is probably one of the most slot efficient options you can get, providing a reliable, effective debuff that's going to be useful all campaign.
It's not the best spell ever, but I did mentally flinch a little seeing it (or at least, the basic version) listed as RED, which to me is just wild. Dex vs Con is just a matter of taste but a reliable, slot-cheap debuff listed as one of the worst spells in the game?
I’ll take another look. Thanks for the heads-up.
Blur is flat 5 so 20% miss chance not 25.
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Got through your cantrips review, had some thoughts to discuss:
Thoughts on cantrips:
Acid splash is a very poorly written spell at the moment, so there is a lot of confusion about how it works. Its utility is largely dependent upon how the table arbitrates it so it is a good idea to discuss it with your GM before you consider taking it, (there are multiple threads about this, but it might be good to point out the confusion in your guide for new players).
Detect Magic - Every party should have one caster with this cantrip, and it should be in a wizard’s spell book, but often times the wizard is the character with much better cantrips than other casters and having the bard or the cleric take this instead can be a benefit to the whole party.
Ghost sound - I love illusion magic, but without conceal spell (or later silent spell), this spell is incredibly limited in what you can do with it, because its range is very short and most potential uses will require you being where the person you are trying to fool will hear you casting your spell. I actually find players more often overusing this spell and assuming that they can accomplish more with it than they should, rather than undervaluing it. Deceptive magic requires some character build dedication.
Message - Runs into many of the same problems as ghost sound. A lot depends on how your GM follows rules around verbal components. You can’t cast this spell and then move into an area where you are trying to be stealthy, you have to cast it when you want to deliver a message, making it terrible for stealth without conceal spell, and even then you are having to make a stealth check and a deception check to use it. It should probably be red if played by the book.
Tanglefoot - can be brutal if you can hit with it and then move away (the biggest problem with the spell, it should have targeted reflex and had a success feature like -5 movement). It can effectively be slow 2 for creatures with 25ft of movement to lose 10ft per action, but only against martials. It is not great, but I don’t really think this spell is any worse than sigil.
I will put more time looking over higher level spells, but air bubble isn't just for going underwater. As a reaction, it works anytime you encounter a situation where you couldn't breathe regularly, which would include being a great defense against gas/cloud effects. A wizard can cheese it defensively with a stinking cloud. By level 5 its not a bad spell to have one memorized most of the time.
Blur is flat 5 so 20% miss chance not 25.
I thought I fixed that.
Looks.
I did fix that. The version I'm looking at says 20%. Can you please refresh and tell me if it still looks wrong?
Good stuff, folks. I'm making a list of things to consider for my next iteration. I don't agree with all of it, but I do have a list telling me which things to read up on and consider. For instance, I had no idea that acid splash was controversial.
I may be biased because it was so useful in the last two encounters I played (both severe). It remains useful at pretty much any level, it increases chances of landing other debuffs and combines nicely with common buffs like inspire courage. Maybe if your party is structured to provide fear effects easily its less useful - but in most parties it is going to be effective. I prefer it to color spray because its easier to stay out of melee and because it so useful against higher level foes.
Palinurus, I have to admit that fear was fairly fun to use as a GM in my Age of Ashes game because even though it only affected one PC for one turn, it took him out of the fight for two turns when he critically failed and ran away.
Nice work. One minor correction: you have heroism as an arcane spell in your arcane spell listing, but it's divine/occult now.
Huh. Makes sense, I suppose. How did I screw that up?
Well, anyway, it's fixed now.
Thanks!
Okay, fear fans. I bowed to the majority opinion and rated it more highly.
Acid splash is a very poorly written spell at the moment, so there is a lot of confusion about how it works. Its utility is largely dependent upon how the table arbitrates it so it is a good idea to discuss it with your GM before you consider taking it, (there are multiple threads about this, but it might be good to point out the confusion in your guide for new players).
Yeah, I just don't see it. "Splash Damage" is clear as a bell.
Detect Magic - Every party should have one caster with this cantrip, and it should be in a wizard’s spell book, but often times the wizard is the character with much better cantrips than other casters and having the bard or the cleric take this instead can be a benefit to the whole party.
Maybe, but that's not the kind of call I'm making here. I'm saying it's a staple spell and a really good one. I'm not saying it has to be the wizard that takes it. These are ratings, not strategy.
Ghost sound - I love illusion magic, but without conceal spell (or later silent spell), this spell is incredibly limited in what you can do with it, because its range is very short and most potential uses will require you being where the person you are trying to fool will hear you casting your spell. I actually find players more often overusing this spell and assuming that they can accomplish more with it than they should, rather than undervaluing it. Deceptive magic requires some character build dedication.
I see your point and I may add a comment about conceal spell, but I think that illusion works really well on dumb monsters (which is a fairly significant group).
Tanglefoot - can be brutal if you can hit with it and then move away (the biggest problem with the spell, it should have targeted reflex and had a success feature like -5 movement). It can effectively be slow 2 for creatures with 25ft of movement to lose 10ft per action, but only against...
It's a poorly-conceived spell that A) requires you to hit; B) lasts for 1 round if the target fails the save, and C) doesn't do all that much when it works. Bleah!
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How are you interpreting splash damage?
There are two primary schools of thought:
1. the spell should be treated as having the splash trait, same as splash weapons.
2. Splash damage is just a damage type that works against swarms.
The difference between these two interpretations is massive. Most folks agree that 2 is all you can get to by RAW, but a lot of us argue that RAI can't be so narrowly focused, as it makes the spell effectively garbage.
Tanglefoot gets an increasing duration with higher levels, meaning that, if you can hit with it (the big problem with the spell, we all agree), it can be pretty effective at stealing actions away from enemies. Especially because escape has the attack trait, so if the enemy fails the escape check, they might very well have wasted the round.
Against brutish enemies (especially ones with lots of HP and low Acs like Oozes), it can allow your entire party to kite the enemy with ease. Should it be green? Probably not, but is it less useful than sigil? I just can't see that.
It is one of the only combat cantrips that has any real duration to it.
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How are you interpreting splash damage?
There are two primary schools of thought:
1. the spell should be treated as having the splash trait, same as splash weapons.
2. Splash damage is just a damage type that works against swarms.
The difference between these two interpretations is massive. Most folks agree that 2 is all you can get to by RAW, but a lot of us argue that RAI can't be so narrowly focused, as it makes the spell effectively garbage.
It ain't splash damage if it's not splashing. It's clearly #1.
Tanglefoot gets an increasing duration with higher levels, meaning that, if you can hit with it (the big problem with the spell, we all agree), it can be pretty effective at stealing actions away from enemies. Especially because escape has the attack trait, so if the enemy fails the escape check, they might very well have wasted the round.
Against brutish enemies (especially ones with lots of HP and low Acs like Oozes), it can allow your entire party to kite the enemy with ease. Should it be green? Probably not, but is it less useful than sigil? I just can't see that.
It is one of the only combat cantrips that has any real duration to it.
I hadn't considered the heightened effects (I'm still getting used to the ideas of 2e automatic heightening for cantrips). I guess it could be orange, given the duration.
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It ain't splash damage if it's not splashing. It's clearly #1.How are you interpreting splash damage?
There are two primary schools of thought:
1. the spell should be treated as having the splash trait, same as splash weapons.
2. Splash damage is just a damage type that works against swarms.
The difference between these two interpretations is massive. Most folks agree that 2 is all you can get to by RAW, but a lot of us argue that RAI can't be so narrowly focused, as it makes the spell effectively garbage.
My GM did not read it that way. The splash trait specifically calls out weapons and is not listed on the spell, so by RAW, the only splash in acid splash is the damage type, not how it interacts with splash rules. I don't think that is right RAI, either, but my table tries pretty hard to play by the book so the spell was dead on arrival.
Some folks on these threads even argue that the spell would have been too powerful if it worked like it had the splash trait, so there is not universal agreement about what RAI was. It might be worth pointing this out to folks in your guide, because it can be pretty disappointing to show up expecting a spell to do one thing and then being shut down.
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Gonna throw my voice into the chorus calling for Dexterity to be explicitly recommended, and maybe add a note that this is less important in a lower color for Builds that get AC in other ways. Getting crit is nasty, and if your GM varies encounters at all, you're eventually going to be surrounded, flanked, teleport-ed in on, or shot with a bow/spell attack. My last session had the party swarmed with Shadows from all directions, for instance, a Wizard following your advice would've gotten their face stomped in.
I also think Spell Blending is rated lower than it should be, it represents a powerful option for a wizard to be able to get extra casts of their most powerful spells, which is outstanding in a game where HP scales the way this one does.
I saw the post where you accuse SuperBidi of being insulting, and I think you're misunderstanding something here-- the guide is yours, but if you want it to be treated as more than a joke, you do need to justify your assertions to the community-- it's similar to peer review in Academia.
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It is of supreme indifference to me how I am regarded by you or the community you claim to represent. I've been a member of this community for a very long time and perhaps I've been lucky enough to miss it, but I've never seen anyone demand another person comply with their opinion or face some sort of ridicule.
And no, in academia, they deal with facts. This is opinion.
Read it, burn it, ignore it, I do not care. I'll listen and respond to constructive criticism, but I am absolutely not required to "justify" myself to you or anyone for something I created and gave to the community free of charge.
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Guide seems solid.
Not sure why you wouldn't max dex with four stat increases per 5 levels. Dex, Con, Int, then pick where you want to focus. As far as I see the guide, Int is obviously number one, but Dex and Con are equally important and should both be built up over the other ones.
You have an excellent Will save and get the normal success turns into critical success ability.
Whereas Con adds to Fort saves and hit points and Dex adds to Ref saves and AC. Both very important to survival. Higher AC helps you avoid crits and higher reflex saves helps you avoid critical failures against some high damage spells. Critical failures on reflex saves can wreck you. Same goes with Fort saves and not having many hit points. I feel like any wizard looking to maximize survival should focus equally on Dex and Con. They are equally valuable.
I even ran an encounter recently where missed reflex saves wrecked our party. My bard died from a critical failure on a high damage chain lightning. Holy schnikes, taking a 110 points of electrical damage from a critical failure on a reflex save was not fun.
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A note to all those advocating Dexterity and/or high AC: If you'll check near the end of the document, you will see a section called "Planned Additional Sections" (if you don't see it, Refresh your screen). I'll be discussing the issues you have collectively brought up.
In a similar vein to the acid splash discussion (which I had no idea was controversial), you should note spells which are uncommon (maybe even separate them in their own section at the end of each list?), since their very existence will depend on GM fiat.
You're missing a lot of creatures for the various summon spells at fifth level. I will make a shameless plug for my Summon Tables; they might not be as detailed as the Google Sheet you link to in your document, but they are complete and up to date.
One minor complaint regarding grammar: You regularly use "it's" (abbreviated form of "it is") instead of the possessive "its". Do a search for "it's" and ask yourself whether it could be written as "it is" to see where it needs correction.
Other writing errors:
- Summon Elemental 3rd level: You forgot to replace "plants and fungus" in the note. :-)
- Magaambyan Wizard: You didn't finish your description.
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Thanks for your input. I'll take a look at your tables.
re: it's/its. It is (smile) something I'm aware of. But it's something I still get wrong all the time.
EDIT: Well, 3 times out of 126 in this case. But I still thank you for notifying me of them. I want my grammar to be off only when I intend it to be!
Anyway, the edits won't show up for awhile. I'm now editing offline.
You're missing a lot of creatures for the various summon spells at fifth level. I will make a shameless plug for my Summon Tables; they might not be as detailed as the Google Sheet you link to in your document, but they are complete and up to date.
coriolis: What I found when I checked out your tables was that you had included monsters of different levels on the same table. For instance, monsters of levels 4 and 5 are on the same list. I only reviewed monsters of the highest level summonable by each spell (so, only 5th level in that example). Sure, it means I've ignored a lot of monsters, but had I included them it would almost always have been to color them orange because they simply weren't up to the power of a 5th level monster. And yes, I'm sure someone will say that there might be a useful ability available at the even-numbered level that doesn't exist at the odd-numbered level. That's fine; I'm not trying to include absolutely everything possible.
The only place I've included lower-level monsters is where there were no summonable monsters of the correct level
I did find a few on-level monsters I'd missed (like the Lion), so thanks for the opportunity to double-check.
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I saw the post where you accuse SuperBidi of being insulting, and I think you're misunderstanding something here-- the guide is yours, but if you want it to be treated as more than a joke, you do need to justify your assertions to the community-- it's similar to peer review in Academia.
I think that's a big extreme. I value Dex more than the OP, but it's their guide and they've presented their reasoning behind their priorities and it sounds like, from their own play experience, that it's been working for them.
While I get where you're coming from, this isn't an academic paper and we definitely aren't a peer review board and implying the guide is a joke is a bit much, imo, even if you don't agree with its assertions.
I've been noodling around a section on the use of Familiars and I realize now that there exists a lot of contention over the capabilities, uses and limitations of familiars. It's made me realize that what seems common sense to me is a violation of the rules to some and too restrictive to others.
I've read a lot of stuff on these boards (mostly arguments) about the subject and wonder if anyone has some input or guidance to which they'd like to direct my attention?
I do have some definite thoughts (I obviously rated the familiar options highly in Version 1.0), but now realize that the rating can be anywhere from Red to Blue depending on how you and your GM view the minion rules, particularly for minions out of combat.
The only familiar that saw use at our table flat-out died in the first encounter when it flew out to provide flanking, but ended up being the only party member adjacent to a hard hitting enemy. When the player realize that it would be a week before the familiar came back, that was the end of our experimenting with familiars.
The real issue is that there is not, by the rules, a way for a familiar sticking close to the caster to avoid Area of Effect attacks, and their HP is low enough that a bad save can see them killed flat out in one attack.
A lot of folks are hoping that there will be a clear action that the familiar can take to nest or hide with their master and not be exposed to attacks until they act independently again.
Without that, it is really all GM fiat for how situations like level +2 AoE hazards handle the familiar wrapped around your shoulders.
Familiars are pretty worthless unless you want to have one for role-play or perhaps scouting purposes.
I've released an updated version, based on many of the comments I've received. It's at the same address as before: VERSION 1.1
Just wanted to ask a quick question about the guide in section 23.2 Maximizing Dexterity you say :
"A beginning wizard is trained in Unarmored Defense, which means that their Armor Class is equal to (their level)+12+(Dexterity Modifier). So for instance, a wizard with a +0 Dexterity Modifier will have an Armor Class of 22 at 10th level."
I thought armor class was calculated by AC = 10 + Dex mod + proficiency bonus + armor’s item bonus to AC + other bonuses + penalties. Wouldn't the wizards AC be 13 at level 10.
Sorry if I am missing something I'm new to 2e.
Your proficiency bonus is 0 if untrained, level + 2 if trained, level + 4 if expert, level + 6 if master, and level + 8 if legendary. (See p444 of the CRB.) A 10th level Wizard is trained in unarmored defense, so their unarmored defense proficiency bonus is level (10) + 2 = +12.
Oh okay I missed the whole level part. Our group just moved from 5e to pf2e so things are a bit confusing.Your proficiency bonus is 0 if untrained, level + 2 if trained, level + 4 if expert, level + 6 if master, and level + 8 if legendary. (See p444 of the CRB.) A 10th level Wizard is trained in unarmored defense, so their unarmored defense proficiency bonus is level (10) + 2 = +12.Just wanted to ask a quick question about the guide in section 23.2 Maximizing Dexterity you say :
"A beginning wizard is trained in Unarmored Defense, which means that their Armor Class is equal to (their level)+12+(Dexterity Modifier). So for instance, a wizard with a +0 Dexterity Modifier will have an Armor Class of 22 at 10th level."
I thought armor class was calculated by AC = 10 + Dex mod + proficiency bonus + armor’s item bonus to AC + other bonuses + penalties. Wouldn't the wizards AC be 13 at level 10.
Sorry if I am missing something I'm new to 2e.
No worries! Happy to help. :)
I'm happy to see the dexterity section. Your numbers are a bit off in section 23.2, though:
By comparison, a champion in heavy armor and bearing a shield might have an Armor Class of 32 at 10th level (not including magic) and an Armor Class of 56 at 20th level (not including magic). So an unarmored wizard trails the best armor classes in the game by a considerable amount.
If a wizard maximizes his Dexterity, he can achieve a 20 Dexterity (+5 to his Armor Class) by 15th level. But as you can see, this more dexterous wizard (with a 26 AC at 10th level and a 39 AC at 20th level) will still lag far behind the best Armor Classes in the game.
Maximum Champion AC is 10 + prof 8 + level 20 + Plate 6 + Runes 3 = 47
Wizards is 10 + prof 4 + level 20 + unarmored 5 + Runes 3 = 42
They can both wield a shield for AC.
I don't actually have a problem with the analysis other than the exaggerated numbers.
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Just started reading through, enjoying it so far.
One correction - the universalist has one less spell slot than the specialists. A universalist has one arcane bond each level. A specialist has one extra spell slot each level and one use of arcane bond.
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I don't actually have a problem with the analysis other than the exaggerated numbers.
I don't recall how I derived those numbers. I'll either support it or change it in the next version.
Great guide, it's been an amazing help in building my first 2e Wizard.
One minor correction: The Human feat Multitalented specifically gives you a Multiclass dedication - so one of the other main classes, not the prestige classes (organisation archetypes? still thinking in 1e terms). Can't take Living Monolith or Pathfinder Agent with it.
Huh. You're right. I hadn't noticed that there were traits subordinate to Archetypes, but there are. I had been reading "multiclass dedication feat" to be synonymous with "archetype dedication feat."
I'll fix it in the next edit (there's a lot to work on with Bestiary 2 out).
Just started reading through, enjoying it so far.
One correction - the universalist has one less spell slot than the specialists. A universalist has one arcane bond each level. A specialist has one extra spell slot each level and one use of arcane bond.
Can you indicate where I said differently, so I know what to change? This is exactly why I numbered the paragraphs.
Can you indicate where I said differently, so I know what to change? This is exactly why I numbered the paragraphs.
You didn’t explicitly say differently, but you referred to the amount of extra slots in an identical way in 7.1 and 7.2, and I understood from your discussion with SuperBidi in this thread that this is something you’ve missed in your ranking.
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I have a metaquestion for you Tarondor!
Everyone in the thread so far has been super nice with their comments, and most people here generally are!
That said, as a first time guide writer, I was shocked by the sheer volume of really angry or aggressive emails/messages about people having different value opinions as me. Do you get those or am I doing something wrong?