Charisma and Skills

I keep running into the same issue when I build and play a character with this class.

I need a high Charisma because it's my key ability score and my main class feature uses it.

I need a high Strength and/or high Dexterity because I am a combat class with class features revolving around Striking enemies.

I need a good Constitution because I'm a combat class that only gets 8 hit points per level.

Because I need these three or four ability scores, it means my Wisdom and Intelligence will be low. However, most of what my class does revolves around using Wisdom-based and Intelligence-based skills. I can only use Charisma on these skills when I Find Flaws. Outside of magic skills (all Intelligence- and Wisdom-based skills), I won't have many skills because my Intelligence will be low.

As a consequence of all this, the class forces me to invest in skills I'm not good at while also hindering me from using skills I would be good at. I feel it when I play, too. Outside of combat, I feel useless because I'm bad or mediocre at almost all my skills. And I'm bad or mediocre at these skills because I'm a Charisma-based martial class with a role revolving around Wisdom-based and Intelligence-based skills.

Yeah the class is really obnoxiously MAD. It basically wants every stat to function properly.

This is a known issue, with the most common solution I've seen being that to let the Thaum use CHA for accuracy instead of STR/DEX for attacks when Esoteric Antithesis is applied.

That and adjustments to the flavor/mechanics so it either uses INT instead of CHA (leaning towards knowledge) or abandoning Recall Knowledge and having Find Flaws work differently (or even exist and just have Esoteric Antithesis instead).

If I remember correctly, Thaumaturge doesn't use their key ability stat often and the primary reason that they need it is for esoteric antithesis, which people have complained about since you need to "roll for rage."

I would prefer to play a wisdom thaumaturge, but if that is not an option, then maybe remove the role from esoteric antithesis and let the thaumaturge choose between strength, dexterity and charisma. Then make charisma worthwhile by actually giving the class a good charisma options, like having it so that you can rely on wand for your primary source of damage.

I wouldn't mind esoteric antithesis becoming simpler and less powerful because that could free up design space for the rest of the class, which feels like it could be tuned up.

The biggest culprit IMO is needing to be Trained in all RK skills (the 4 magical ones AND Society).

Let's have Find Flaws / Esoteric Antithesis not need these skills and voila.

Note that I prefer for the Thaumaturge to stay based on CHA.

This still forces a CHA/DEXorSTR/CON build with little room for WIS or INT.

CHA to attack feels too much like Investigator to me, and far less supported by the pop Thaumaturge-like characters. So, I would prefer being able to hit better, or lower my enemy's AC, so that average STR/DEX is viable.

Higher HPs would help with needing less CON. And/or some way to improve AC as if raising a shield.

TBT, being able to Raise shield and Block with my Implement would feel great.

CHA to attack feels too much like Investigator to me, and far less supported by the pop Thaumaturge-like characters. So, I would prefer being able to hit better, or lower my enemy's AC, so that average STR/DEX is viable.

These would be good alternatives, though to play Devil's advocate for using Cha to hit, it would really fit the current flavor of "convincing" the universe to allow you to forge connections between your esoterica and the creature you're attacking, kind of like turning them into a mystical magnet for whatever pain you have coming their way.

And a good few Thaunaturge characters in fiction are actually investigators, so drawing parallels between this class and Investigator seems pretty apt to me, at least from a flavor standpoint.

The Raven Black wrote:

CHA to attack feels too much like Investigator to me, and far less supported by the pop Thaumaturge-like characters. So, I would prefer being able to hit better, or lower my enemy's AC, so that average STR/DEX is viable.

These would be good alternatives, though to play Devil's advocate for using Cha to hit, it would really fit the current flavor of "convincing" the universe to allow you to forge connections between your esoterica and the creature you're attacking, kind of like turning them into a mystical magnet for whatever pain you have coming their way.

And a good few Thaunaturge characters in fiction are actually investigators, so drawing parallels between this class and Investigator seems pretty apt to me, at least from a flavor standpoint.

To be fair the big "Thaumaturges" in fiction are Dresden, Constantine, and Van Helsing, who would be Wizard, Sorcerer, and Investigator/Ranger (depending on the story), which makes the class that tries to emulate them bringing all these rather different aspects into a less-than-coherent bundle a little strange. No matter what they do, it won't be able to satisfy the full fantasies. I'd rather it grow into it's own identity than try to be "Character, the Class"

Though I agree using the KAS to hit instead of STR/DEX works with those characters much better even if you stuck with "Character, the Class"

You wouldn't describe Dresden or Constantine or Van Helsing as particularly strong or dextrous. They are more defined by their mental abilities.

But they do not hit with CHA IMO. Not the way Downey's Sherlock Holmes hits with INT.

Now, using CHA-based abilities to inflict conditions, curses, jinx, whatever that make your opponent easier to hit (and maybe also less likely to hit you) sounds on theme to me.

But they do not hit with CHA IMO. Not the way Downey's Sherlock Holmes hits with INT.

Now, using CHA-based abilities to inflict conditions, curses, jinx, whatever that make your opponent easier to hit (and maybe also less likely to hit you) sounds on theme to me.

That's because two of them don't hit at all (they use magic) and Van Helsing is either most closely represented by a Ranger or Investigator depending on the story.

Meanwhile, the Thaumaturge is a class whose primary feature is "hit good" and really suffers from MADness, both practically (can't really pump the stats to be a melee combatant that it's pushing towards) and in terms of meeting the stated design concept (those characters are defined by their mental stats, especially INT, which is the Thaum's best dump stat).

Whether "hit good" should be its focus isn't necessarily part of this topic.

Yeah what Cyrad describes is exactly what I experienced while playtesting. I use Charisma to Find Flaws, but when it comes to using skills to defuse a magical hazard... I'm terrible at it.

I'm not opposed to the notion of it being a Charisma-based class, but as is, Charisma as a key ability score actively works against the class from a mechanical, practical, and conceptional standpoint. The entire class focuses on using magical skills, which are all Intelligence- or Wisdom-based, and you will be bad at them because you're spread too thin among ability scores. The class's themes don't really fit with Charisma-based skills unless you make a character that poses as a fraudulent spellcaster. And even if you do utilize Charisma-based skills, they will eat up your trained skill budget because your Intelligence is low and you only get two free trained skills from your class.

My most ideal fix would be a controversial one.

I want to keep charisma, but I also think other mental stats should be relevant.

I could see a martial option in the game, but part of me really wants this to be the magical tricks and skills class and if there was more of a way to Lea into that and have less of a focus on martial stuff.

I know the warpriest/cloistered design is controversial and it wouldn't have to be exactly like it. But if there was space to allow for the more magical, esoteric niche and another one that was more martial inclined it could work. I don't know what it would look like exactly but it could also potentially alleviate MAD issues( along with a few other changes)

My most ideal fix would be a controversial one.

I want to keep charisma, but I also think other mental stats should be relevant.

I could see a martial option in the game, but part of me really wants this to be the magical tricks and skills class and if there was more of a way to Lea into that and have less of a focus on martial stuff.

I know the warpriest/cloistered design is controversial and it wouldn't have to be exactly like it. But if there was space to allow for the more magical, esoteric niche and another one that was more martial inclined it could work. I don't know what it would look like exactly but it could also potentially alleviate MAD issues( along with a few other changes)

No one really agrees with what to do with the class, but the general consensus seems to be to make it more magical-but-not-vancian. There's been ideas for Esoteric Antithesis as a combat debuff tool, where you can choose from a list of debuffs to apply (flavored as pulling out different Esoterica), making it a full on "Magic Alchemist" that makes magic consumables, focusing entirely on the Implements and be more like the Occultist, etc.

I would say mystical (rather than magical) and no-spell rather than not-Vancian, which to me seems to be only about not having spell slots.

My most ideal fix would be a controversial one.

I want to keep charisma, but I also think other mental stats should be relevant.

I could see a martial option in the game, but part of me really wants this to be the magical tricks and skills class and if there was more of a way to Lea into that and have less of a focus on martial stuff.

I know the warpriest/cloistered design is controversial and it wouldn't have to be exactly like it. But if there was space to allow for the more magical, esoteric niche and another one that was more martial inclined it could work. I don't know what it would look like exactly but it could also potentially alleviate MAD issues( along with a few other changes)

I feel this could come through freeing the Thaumaturge to allocate his stat boosts beyond CHA (key stat) and CON (melee) to their choice of INT, WIS, DEX or STR to emphasize their more combat or intellectual focus. Which implies that the Thaumaturge who boosts WIS and INT could still meaningfully contribute to combat, while the one who chooses to boost STR or DEX excels in it, at least for a Thaumaturge.

The class's themes don't really fit with Charisma-based skills unless you make a character that poses as a fraudulent spellcaster.

Now you found a fun concept for the Thauma! kkk

My most ideal fix would be a controversial one.

I want to keep charisma, but I also think other mental stats should be relevant.

I could see a martial option in the game, but part of me really wants this to be the magical tricks and skills class and if there was more of a way to Lea into that and have less of a focus on martial stuff.

I know the warpriest/cloistered design is controversial and it wouldn't have to be exactly like it. But if there was space to allow for the more magical, esoteric niche and another one that was more martial inclined it could work. I don't know what it would look like exactly but it could also potentially alleviate MAD issues( along with a few other changes)

The cleric is one of mostly classes that suffer from MAD. The warpriest specifically is terrible. If you try to focus in martial you simply won't have stats points to invest into spellcast key stat. Usually in low level only adventures non-human warpriests could focus in put some points in str and con sacrificing it's wis using only support and heal spells to avoid low spell hit/dc problems.

The currently structure punishes a lot classes that depends from a large MAD.

About the non-find flaws RK problem I think the only solutions are allows all RK being made using cha not only the find flaws or switch the key stat to other.

No one really agrees with what to do with the class, but the general consensus seems to be to make it more magical-but-not-vancian. There's been ideas for Esoteric Antithesis as a combat debuff tool, where you can choose from a list of debuffs to apply (flavored as pulling out different Esoterica), making it a full on "Magic Alchemist" that makes magic consumables, focusing entirely on the Implements and be more like the Occultist, etc.

I think you wanted to say "more magical-but-not-spellcaster" I like very much the ideal of have a martial non-spellcaster that could use and exploit various magical knowledge and weakpoints from opponents and magical situations (like magical hardzards/objects) but I prefer the class don't be a spellcaster.

I feel this could come through freeing the Thaumaturge to allocate his stat boosts beyond CHA (key stat) and CON (melee) to their choice of INT, WIS, DEX or STR to emphasize their more combat or intellectual focus. Which implies that the Thaumaturge who boosts WIS and INT could still meaningfully contribute to combat, while the one who chooses to boost STR or DEX excels in it, at least for a Thaumaturge.

The other solution is do like investigator and allow some special action that permit to thauma to use it's mental key stat to hit. This would allow it to able to fight without being too martial focused.

I think the class might run more naturally if you had a choice of key stat between Int, Wis and Cha. Int and Wis focus more on truly identifying monsters and dealing with actual weaknesses. Cha focuses more on talking up a custom weakness.

And the class would have feats leaning on skills for each of the attributes, so if you're an Int-heavy thaumaturge you might pick up a Crafting-driven feat to sabotage constructs and a Wis-heavy thaum might go for Religion-driven magic circles against fiends. The Cha-heavy thaum would be best poised for a maybe more urban adventure, imposing weaknesses even on creatures like humanoids that don't necessarily have any to begin with.

This would let you jettison the awkward Cha to RK but not other skill uses bit. Also at higher levels as ability score increases cause your mental stats to all rise closer together, you can branch out into other aspects of the class.

I don't think changing the mental stat is the solution here. All debates over the choice of mental stat aside, an Int-primary THM would still want some degree Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis. The MAD doesn't really improve much at all.

Use int or wis as key stat at last helps in exploration mode.

IMO the current main problem of thauma is in exploration mode. In encounters even it needs tweaks and being more flavorful and party supportive it still good just need a better way to face the opponents instead of RK because of many bugs and limitation of RK when used to FF. But when we see in exploration usually you need to use all your skill focus in the 4 base RK skills (arcane, nature, religion, occult) plus society giving the tauma only 2 more points to select more skills, one from background and other free. And also you need to greatly invest in your key stat (because of FF/EA) plus dex/str and con to allow the char to be useful during encounters, making the 4 base skills poor in exploration mode and having a little number of skill to others stats.

If the key stat was int or wis at last 2 skills improves a lot. So changing key stats already helps goodly.

The other thing I've found is that you're really hard up for skill increases. You want to increase FOUR skills in order to be able to land Esoteric Antithesis reliably, and you're a Charisma class so you'll want to grab some of the useful social skills. There's very little room to grab other skills that are simply appropriate for the character or seem fun.

Like this is the Swashbuckler's problem of "a lot of your skill increases are spoken for since you need to keep advancing Acrobatics+your style's skill, except moreso.

What if Thaumaturges got additional skill increases like the Rogue and Investigator but no extra skill feats AND those extra skill increases had to be in arcana, nature, occultist or religion?

Don't forget Society for humanoids.

Which is a lot of skills that can't be fully supported by just additional skill increases.

Don't forget Society for humanoids.

Which is a lot of skills that can't be fully supported by just additional skill increases.

I wouldn't include society since it's not a default trained skill for the class. It's pretty insignificant to the class outside of being able to recall knowledge and only for typically non-monstrous humanoids. I think the class is aiming more toward monster hunting and not people hunting.

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Don't forget Society for humanoids.

Which is a lot of skills that can't be fully supported by just additional skill increases.

I wouldn't include society since it's not a default trained skill for the class. It's pretty insignificant to the class outside of being able to recall knowledge and only for typically non-monstrous humanoids. I think the class is aiming more toward monster hunting and not people hunting.

Yet it can only do so well when confronted with said creature since it's dump stat is INT. It should probably just dump RK altogether since it's making an already incoherent class less coherent.

Plus, people are the real monsters half of the time.

John R. wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Don't forget Society for humanoids.

Which is a lot of skills that can't be fully supported by just additional skill increases.

I wouldn't include society since it's not a default trained skill for the class. It's pretty insignificant to the class outside of being able to recall knowledge and only for typically non-monstrous humanoids. I think the class is aiming more toward monster hunting and not people hunting.

Yet it can only do so well when confronted with said creature since it's dump stat is INT. It should probably just dump RK altogether since it's making an already incoherent class less coherent.

Plus, people are the real monsters half of the time.

Society also doesn't relate to any of the magical traditions and magic is a significant part of the class however oddly it has been applied. I feel it is strongly implied that the Thaumaturge isn't natively interested in normal everyday creatures as much as more mythical and strange ones.

Also, people being the real monsters is a trope that's not going to always be the followed.

Players can select to focus on society if they want and still use charisma for it with Find Flaws. As is, it's still probably not going to be a core of the class identity until they find reasoning to make it so.

Golurkcanfly wrote:

John R. wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Don't forget Society for humanoids.

Which is a lot of skills that can't be fully supported by just additional skill increases.

I wouldn't include society since it's not a default trained skill for the class. It's pretty insignificant to the class outside of being able to recall knowledge and only for typically non-monstrous humanoids. I think the class is aiming more toward monster hunting and not people hunting.

Yet it can only do so well when confronted with said creature since it's dump stat is INT. It should probably just dump RK altogether since it's making an already incoherent class less coherent.

Plus, people are the real monsters half of the time.

Society also doesn't relate to any of the magical traditions and magic is a significant part of the class however oddly it has been applied. I feel it is strongly implied that the Thaumaturge isn't natively interested in normal everyday creatures as much as more mythical and strange ones.

Also, people being the real monsters is a trope that's not going to always be the followed.

Players can select to focus on society if they want and still use charisma for it with Find Flaws. As is, it's still probably not going to be a core of the class identity until they find reasoning to make it so.

One of the repeated examples in promotional material and in the class flavor text is using a chain to imbue weakness in a tyrant, which would be Society. But all these issues arise from Find Flaws using Recall Knowledge in the first place, which has lots of mechanical and flavor issues compared to a similar ability that doesn't use RK.

John R. wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

John R. wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Don't forget Society for humanoids.

Which is a lot of skills that can't be fully supported by just additional skill increases.

I wouldn't include society since it's not a default trained skill for the class. It's pretty insignificant to the class outside of being able to recall knowledge and only for typically non-monstrous humanoids. I think the class is aiming more toward monster hunting and not people hunting.

Yet it can only do so well when confronted with said creature since it's dump stat is INT. It should probably just dump RK altogether since it's making an already incoherent class less coherent.

Plus, people are the real monsters half of the time.

Society also doesn't relate to any of the magical traditions and magic is a significant part of the class however oddly it has been applied. I feel it is strongly implied that the Thaumaturge isn't natively interested in normal everyday creatures as much as more mythical and strange ones.

Also, people being the real monsters is a trope that's not going to always be the followed.

Players can select to focus on society if they want and still use charisma for it with Find Flaws. As is, it's still probably not going to be a core of the class identity until they find reasoning to make it so.

One of the repeated examples in promotional material and in the class flavor text is using a chain to imbue weakness in a tyrant, which would be Society. But all these issues arise from Find Flaws using Recall Knowledge in the first place, which has lots of mechanical and flavor issues compared to a similar ability that doesn't use RK.

Yes, but society still isn't tied to any magical tradition either. That might be what kept it from being trained by default.

I really think the simplest solution would be to make Esoteric Lore part of the starting core.

Oh and RK rules do definitely need clarification but that's regardless of whatever else happens.

Add more skills and skill increments and keeping charisma even using society to FF solve the lack of skills problem but still have a bad flavor. The Thauma keeps being mediocre in the exploration mode when using the 4 main RK skills.

The things continue to be "I'm fantastic to RK creatures during battle but I'm no too good to understand others magic and esoteric knowledge".

Add more skills and skill increments and keeping charisma even using society to FF solve the lack of skills problem but still have a bad flavor. The Thauma keeps being mediocre in the exploration mode when using the 4 main RK skills.

The things continue to be "I'm fantastic to RK creatures during battle but I'm no too good to understand others magic and esoteric knowledge".

That's fair.

I think a lot of the constant debate over this class's KAS, its features and its thematic focus is due to there being a lot of matches in some areas but mismatches in others and when you change one thing up, one thing might fit better now but something else is now out of place. It should be up to the player on what facet to focus on but I think that would require the KAS to be a choice between the mental abilities. Charisma works with the class's esoterica and magical items (something I like to compare to animism). Intelligence or wisdom would work better for the knowledge aspects. Charisma being used for Find Flaws is a nice compromise of not having to choose between wisdom or intelligence but still feels wonky. But I think it's going to just feel wonky somewhere for a lot of, if not most, people, so I think it might be best to let people decide where they are most comfortable with it feeling wonky.

YuriP wrote:

Add more skills and skill increments and keeping charisma even using society to FF solve the lack of skills problem but still have a bad flavor. The Thauma keeps being mediocre in the exploration mode when using the 4 main RK skills.

The things continue to be "I'm fantastic to RK creatures during battle but I'm no too good to understand others magic and esoteric knowledge".

That's fair.

I think a lot of the constant debate over this class's KAS, its features and its thematic focus is due to there being a lot of matches in some areas but mismatches in others and when you change one thing up, one thing might fit better now but something else is now out of place. It should be up to the player on what facet to focus on but I think that would require the KAS to be a choice between the mental abilities. Charisma works with the class's esoterica and magical items (something I like to compare to animism). Intelligence or wisdom would work better for the knowledge aspects. Charisma being used for Find Flaws is a nice compromise of not having to choose between wisdom or intelligence but still feels wonky. But I think it's going to just feel wonky somewhere for a lot of, if not most, people, so I think it might be best to let people decide where they are most comfortable with it feeling wonky.

It's definitely torn between identities, some of which are already represented more thoroughly by other classes. It's this really weird hybrid of Ranger, Investigator, and 1e Occultist with some new stuff sprinkled in, and suffers for trying to do be all of those things at once.

It could definitely use a refocus of identity, giving it a more unique flavor identity as well as mechanical one.

…It's this really weird hybrid of Ranger, Investigator, and 1e Occultist with some new stuff sprinkled in, and suffers for trying to do be all of those things at once.…

But is it though? It also seems to be a Fighter and a Barbarian and a Witch. If you look long enough, at any class there will be some overlap.

I get the MADness, just not sure I agree that the class is trying too much…

I'm getting Bard, Ranger and Witch even a bit of Alchemist with it having a lot of item feats.

Golurkcanfly wrote:

…It's this really weird hybrid of Ranger, Investigator, and 1e Occultist with some new stuff sprinkled in, and suffers for trying to do be all of those things at once.…

But is it though? It also seems to be a Fighter and a Barbarian and a Witch. If you look long enough, at any class there will be some overlap.

I get the MADness, just not sure I agree that the class is trying too much…

How is it any of those three?

Sure, it gets an optional AoO, but that's every martial.

It has nothing in common with Barbarian besides having a damage booster feature, just like every other martial with Master proficiency.

Witch? Sure, it gets familiar feats, but it has none of the defining abilities of the class (spellcasting or hexes).

Meanwhile, it has a "Hunt Prey with Extra Steps" + Implements as it's base features, and then some of the flavor of the Investigator in terms of knowledge, but without the same level of innate support (INT dump stat).

The Thaum just doesn't have a mechanical identity. It's a loose bag of features that don't connect in any meaningful way, and most of the feats don't interact with the chassis at all, either. And much of what it does have is retreading old ground in 2e, which is a disservice to the much more unique flavor of the class. It's trying to be the Recall Knowledge class but is also a CHA-based Hunt Prey DPS machine (that is extremely MAD, exacerbating the other issues) and also an item specialist (which doesn't actually get action economy benefits to use said items effectively) and none of those bits really work together to give the class a solid identity. They're fighting for space and each individual bit ends up underwhelming because of it.

Witch? Sure, it gets familiar feats, but it has none of the defining abilities of the class (spellcasting or hexes).

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Witch? Sure, it gets familiar feats, but it has none of the defining abilities of the class (spellcasting or hexes).

It has those pact feats too which definitely parallel the Witch patrons. Though I agree with many others that those feats should probably be equally accessible to all as general feats or rituals or something.

Or Contracts, which could actually fit really well with the item focus in Thaumaturge feats.

It feels really weird to have these primarily RP choices (they seem to be made to sell a flavor rather than to allow a mechanic) both locked behind class feats as well as be uncommon. Could be a general Uncommon mechanic that the Thaum gets specific feats to interact with, such as ways to work around the downsides or pit two Pacts against each other.

The simplest stopgap solution would be to just make Esoteric Antithesis run off of a single universal Lore skill regardless of the creature you're trying to identify, but I suspect the Thaumaturge is due for a total rework of its mechanics in the same vein as what the Investigator got.

@Golurkcanfly: I think you answered my questions yourself - and as I said, if you look close enough, there’s a lot of overlap. (The Barbarian point was mostly about folks equating the Thaumaturge damage dealing to the Barbarian.)

Look, I completely agree there are really frustrating locks, imbalances and thematic chokes on the Thaumaturge. Just off the top of my head I have posted about the specificity, unrelatedness and level dependence of Pacts; the wonky use or lack thereof of interactions of Charisma; the non-interaction of all those Esoterica trinkets; the problems of Recall Knowlegde as a subsystem generally and specifically with how it interacts with EA/FF and generally am unimpressed or uninterested in Implements.

Having said all that, I hope the major points can be streamlined and a fun class result.