OGGM's Kingdom Builder

Game Master Jeff Przybylo

the Kingdom DC and the current Treasury are two different things (obviously), I am speaking of the former. And I think you only go up with hexes claimed. Will have to confirm.

What do you have there that costs three? Oh, the house. I should have known. Yep, you're right. 22 looks correct to me now.

I'm cool with a town hall too. They're a little more expensive, but we can make do.

Roads will require bridges, since we have a river in our hex, I think, then the first road we build will cost 6 BP. Maybe waiting is good, unless we think we need some bridges.

Edit: Any word if the Fangberries count as a special resource or not?

Edit2: Overreaction coming. Be warned.

You now are size 1, I believe the DC should go to 21.

EDIT: I came down with a bad case of RTFM. Apologies. Let's move on.

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OK, with Talia having passed the Stability check and with zero consumption or magic items, we're into the Edict Phase.

We get to claim 1 hex and build 2 terrain improvements and 1 building (plus 1 tenement/house/mansion/villa).

Thoughts?

I got most of the map done last night, except for the labeling, and then forgot to export it as a PNG, so it will have to wait until I can get home to get up.

I'm all for building farms, even if they are expensive in hills, because they pay off in effect in four turns anyways.

We could also perhaps use a quarry, so that our homes can continue to have chimneys (and the +1 BP/stability is nice). Though we would have to claim another hex to do so, as quarries can't be built within the same hex as other improvements.

Claiming the next northwards river hex (D5) makes most sense to me, as rivers have residual effects and our people can use them in lieu of roads until we get those roads built. The hex also has a bridge in it.

I'm fine with a town hall, though it is expensive. Inn also works for me, and our people will need a granary as the summer goes on.

I got most of the map done last night, except for the labeling, and then forgot to export it as a PNG, so it will have to wait until I can get home to get up.

How frustrating.

Claiming D5 sounds reasonable - it's in the direction of the Levetons and of the gold mine. River hexes are nice to have as well. Since D5 is hills, we can build a quarry on it.

I'll wait to hear what the others have to say before I enter it into the spreadsheet though.

That leaves buildings: Town Hall and another House? Or something else?

Reviewing roles and rolls: the Warden actually rolls Stability, the Ruler rolls Loyalty, FYI. Do it however you want, of course.

As you are on a lake, don't forget fisheries: 4BP, but it could save inland hexes for something else.

The fangberries are a resource hex. Doubled if you like fried spider pate'. That's a joke.

Am I missing something with fisheries? They reduce consumption by 1 BP, but it would cost 1 BP in consumption to have a lake hex on which to build the fisheries...

With Special resources, it makes fisheries profit, but generally the improvement just keeps water dominated hexes from being a drain on your economy.

Soo, we get -3 consumption from farming D5 and +1 to economy from just claiming the hex, I'm pretty sure we're sold on that.

Phase 1 Upkeep? Don't really have anything to keep up, do we?
Step 1: Stability Roll, Success!
Step 2: No Consumption
Step 3: No magic items
Step 4: Consumption cannot be modified past 0 +1BP

Maybe we could start with phase 2:

Phase 2:
Step 1: No change in Leadership
Step 2: Claim Fangberry Hex. -1 BP +1 Economy
Step 3: Terrain Improvements: Build Farm. -4BP * -3 Consumption
Step 4: Build Town Hall -11 BP +1 Loyalty, Stability, Economy
Step 5: No Army
Step 6: Edicts: No changes

Phase 3:

Steps 1-3, not really doing them...
Step 4: Economy Roll: 1d20 + 15 ⇒ (7) + 15 = 22
+7 BP

New BP Total: 21 + 1 - 1 - 4 - 11 + 7 = 13

* Note 1: Upon further investigation, clearing hexes is only for making settlements. Farms do not require that. I might have been the only one confused, but it means that we can build farms immediately, and be set for later.

Construction of buildings can begin in the current month for settlements built on plains.

3 Preparation cost represents the BP cost to clear a hex of this type in preparation for founding a settlement.

Note 2: Did not build a house, because it actually is not going to benefit us in any way. -1 unrest is not useful when we don't have it, and the one house we have is unattached to any building we need to put next to a house. So, we'll just build them as we need them so as to conserve money.

Note 3: We need to get our economy up. I just barely made that roll.

Kaalib - agree with you on getting the economy up and not building a house. If we go for a town hall we can get the economy up.

Next turn we should build a shop (adjacent the existing house) - and actually have a base value, which we don't at the moment (just seems artificial: literally nothing can be bought/sold right now!).

But I don't think we can claim the fangberries this turn, which are in hex C5 - Talia wanted to claim D5, and build a quarry there.

I agree that we should claim the fangberries, and build a farm there; but we can't do that this turn: only one hex claim a turn until we get slightly bigger size.

So taking that into account, this turn looks like

Claim D5
Build Quarry
Build Town Hall

I've updated the spreadsheet on that basis. If anyone has other ideas, let me know - it's easy to undo the changes!

Also, just realised that the Spymaster has some amazing flexibility: in the Edict Phase I can switch my bonus. It was on Stability, but at Kaalib's voiced concerns I moved it to Economy, which means that Kaalib's roll would be a success, resulting in a 25; which gets us 8 BP, plus 1 from the new quarry. Our Stability is slightly lower as a result, but unless we roll a 4 or less it shouldn't be a problem.

So - provisionally (I can undo/redo anything based on people's comments) - our end of turn 2 looks like this:

Economy 18
Loyalty 12
Stability 18
Unrest 0
Consumption 1
Treasury 13 (+1 BP/turn from quarry)
Control DC 23

Onward to the Event Phase - OGGM, this one's on you...

Both Naralesh and Naralesh's player are glad someone else gets to do the lion's share of the work on this - I'm very appreciative of the work you're all putting in! Normally I'd want to be deeply involved in this stuff, but my new job takes so much time from my schedule. Magister is less active from what I can tell, which suits me just fine.

Magister is less active right until it comes to rolling for magic items. That can be a pain.

Event Tun 2: 1d100 ⇒ 92 =no event.

If we are in agreement, on to Turn 3!

Ah, no, you're right on the hex. I did get a bit ahead of myself. I'm not claiming the hexes after all. If you could show your math, so I know where you're getting everything, it's good to double check things, even though your track record is way better than mine at this point. I have 13 as our BP total after the Quarry gets added.

As far as involvement and work, I don't mind input from anyone who has an opinion or a desire to see something in the kingdom that we don't have. If your character feels strongly about not creating canals for some reason, let us know. I don't want us to build a place where others are uncomfortable. We may need to build some shrines here in the first year as well, depending on whether we get everything paid for.

I like the Spymaster's change in Economy, we'll get a much better chance to make our economy roll, and it's actually more important to do so than stability as lack of money is our biggest concern. We can deal with a little unrest by building houses, but we can't build houses without money. At this point, we might need a reminder that in order to expand, we must have our consumption low enough or nonexistent to avoid the unnecessary expense. We don't have to hemorrhage money to make it.

In the case of the quarry, we're losing the BP we gained in Consumption before we can use it, so it doesn't give us anything until we claim the fangberry hex and build the farm except that we exchanged +1 Economy for +1 Stability and have two less BP to build with next turn. The BP isn't an issue, because the two improvements will cost us the same regardless of what order they are built in, and the Consumption is paid by the Quarry. Since this won't make that big of a difference as long as we build that Farm next turn, so I'll just go with it. It also makes sense that we would want a quarry first because we're still building a friggin castle in game.

So it seems I rushed the summary before we were ready, or even all on the same page, so I'll redo it, but this time in a spoiler to avoid wall of text issues.

Magister is less active right until it comes to rolling for magic items. That can be a pain.

That I think I can handle. :)

Size 2, keep that Control DC moving up as well. Should be 22 as I see it.

Thanks Kaalib, it's good to have you cross-checking things; I'm cheating by getting Excel (or Google equivalent) to do the sums for me, but I'll make a point of showing my working in this thread for next turn which should make it easier to follow.

For turn 3, I agree we should claim the fangberries and build a farm on them; and a shop in town for the economy bonus and to get a base value so stuff can actually be bought and sold. Also agree that we don't need another house right now.

But first we need a Stability check...

EDIT: Control DC is 20 + hexes + districts = 20 + 2 + 1 = 23

Thanks Kaalib, it's good to have you cross-checking things; I'm cheating by getting Excel (or Google equivalent) to do the sums for me, but I'll make a point of showing my working in this thread for next turn which should make it easier to follow.

For turn 3, I agree we should claim the fangberries and build a farm on them; and a shop in town for the economy bonus and to get a base value so stuff can actually be bought and sold. Also agree that we don't need another house right now.

But first we need a Stability check...

EDIT: Control DC is 20 + hexes + districts = 20 + 2 + 1 = 23

Right, forgot the districts.

I was going to suggest a foundry over the shop but we are too poor currently but it might be a good idea to keep in mind for future. (Increases mine effect as well as economy and makes Magna happy)

Of course!

Also, the Kingdom building is not really my cup of tea, so forget me if I don't participate much. I think you are doing great, and thanks for taking me along on the ride!

Also, don't forget the gold mine!

Foundry, definitely, once we have a (gold!!!!) mine to connect it with.

As long as everyone who wants to participate is able to, and nobody feels either shut out or obligated to participate, we're fine, as I see it.

So who rolls the stability check then? Dregan? Is it Ok if I go ahead this turn just to keep us moving along?

stability: 1d20 + 18 ⇒ (19) + 18 = 37

Shop, fangberries, working towards the gold mine and a foundry all sound good to me. Maybe we'll be known through the region for our exquisite gold objects!

Regardless, it is all very reasonable in a narrative sense.

Ok, so - festivals. If we just have 1/year, we're net neutral on consumption. If we go for 6/year, we double the loyalty bonus from +1 to +2, and our consumption goes up to 1 (which our quarry will cover, even if we have a bad tax roll).

However, it means that the next hex we claim after the fangberries should also have a farm.

Decision time: 1 festival? Or 6?

Talia will of course vote for the parties!

However, there's a reason why she's not treasurer...

Magna says more work, less festivals

Edric tries not to go near Magna... but holds up 6 fingers when she isn't looking.

On an ooc note: Just read the rules for Diplomatic edicts... does anyone have about 30 skill points they can lend Edric so he has a snowballs chance in hell of being a good diplomat? :)

What if they are Torag-festivals, which Talia imagines would be just like work?

On an ooc note: Just read the rules for Diplomatic edicts... does anyone have about 30 skill points they can lend Edric so he has a snowballs chance in hell of being a good diplomat? :)

Yeesh, yeah those rules are strange. Getting an embassy with Brevoy, which seems perfectly logical, has got to be like a 50 DC.

The diplomacy edicts don't seem well thought-out. Perhaps we need some house-ruling?

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No one was quite sure where Kaalib had picked up the spectacles, but as his eyebrows arched, they slid down his nose like a begrudged librarian. "Look, I don't necessarily want to get into minimizing expenses and their importance on the liquidizing assets, so I'll just say this simply. If we spend money on parties, we can't build, expand, or defend our kingdom on that money we spend. Debt will ruin a kingdom much faster than the hum-drum of daily existence. Will it take until we've reached that point for you to listen to reason?"

He sighed a puff of smoke and pushed his glasses back up before attending to some parchments. "My question is simply this: where does it end? One party now, twelve parties tomorrow. Fine. Do what you must, I'll see what I can do to make it work. In order to make up for the deficiency, we'll have to push off our promotional materials until the end of the first year, perhaps longer."

As if a thought suddenly struck him, he unrolled a parchment and sighed again as he studied it. "Holding a standard festival will cost us approximately resources which could be liquidated to about twenty four thousand gold. Couldn't you just spend a thousand gold of your own and make a personal appearance?"

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Note 1: Just realized Fangberry hex does not contain water. If we want to build farms there, we must also build a canal, or claim D4 and build a farm there first. The good news is we're closer to the Gold Mine, but the bad news is that our consumption is going to just keep going up if we build that first.

Note 2: Having Consumption is bad. It would be best if we didn't have any. Just one festival a year costs us consumption. If we don't have the farms to pay for it, we have to do it out of our BP. That's 12 BP in a year. It's enough to pay for a granary out of pocket. 6 festivals could pay for a Theater in a year. The only way to make these things work for us instead of against us is if we make farms a priority. Which we haven't really done. So we pay the money. Farms are worth 2BP a month when they match Consumption. They give you the most bang for the buck on that front. Make sure they work for us, okay?

Note 3: Magna might not be into kingdom building, but she knows how to make money.

Note 4: A Headband of Int +2 keyed to Diplomacy can get at least your level in ranks if you don't have them. Custom items that give circumstance bonuses are relatively inexpensive. A +10 cape of Diplomacy would cost about 10k. Kaalib has Craft Wondrous Item now, so if you're looking for a little magical help, look no further.

Of course, you can always make a Diplomatic Delegation and take twenty people along who aid another for a +40 to your check. That's probably cheaper.

TLDR: You want the parties? Start focusing more on farms.

Your 8 wisdom ruler (poutily) thanks you for your advice.

Orsheval says: Ruler is cute when she's pouty. Can we lecture her some more?

Kaalib nonverbally threatens to roast familiar.

After short scrum, flying papers and more smoke than should make any records keeper nervous, Kaalib sits trying and failing to exude an air of sophistication.

Speaking of a Headband of Int +2, yes please want yes much want. Naralesh needs more smarts! I'll pick a skill for it shortly, on the run at the moment.

I had not realized you could craft yet. :)

Edric 'Godly' wrote:

On an ooc note: Just read the rules for Diplomatic edicts... does anyone have about 30 skill points they can lend Edric so he has a snowballs chance in hell of being a good diplomat? :)

Yeesh, yeah those rules are strange. Getting an embassy with Brevoy, which seems perfectly logical, has got to be like a 50 DC.

The diplomacy edicts don't seem well thought-out. Perhaps we need some house-ruling?

We get an automatic embassy with Brevoy since they are our sponsorship kingdom. If we wanted to link up with Galt, say, that would likely be impossible or at least really difficult.

Is it worth getting an NPC to do the job and moving Edric to royal enforcer? Since diplomatic and exploration edicts are both an optional extra Edric may well be more useful as enforcer and Taalia can do any PC diplomacy herself. The NPC could hold the position so we don't lose stability and then OGGM can just handwave the diplomatic side of things as and when...

Damn, Kaalib's right. We can't get a farm at C5 unless we also build a canal. Good news is, we can afford that.

Bad news: we can't afford that and a shop.

I suggest we go with Kaalib's suggestion and claim another river hex: D4. We build a farm there and then we are in striking distance of the gold mine hex; and able to claim and put a farm on the fangberries without the need for a canal.

Turn so far - showing my working so Kaalib can cross-check:

Upkeep Phase: stability check passed with Unrest at zero: +1 BP
Upkeep Phase: pay Consumption -1 BP
Edict Phase: Claimed hex D4 -1 BP, +1 Consumption, +1 Control DC
Edict Phase: Terrain improvements: Farm in D4 -4 BP, -2 Consumption
Edict Phase: Settlement: Shop in Concord -8 BP +1 Economy, 500 gp base value
Edict Phase: 1 holiday/year +1 Loyalty, +1 Consumption

Turn 3 so far:

Economy 19
Loyalty 14
Stability 18
Unrest 0 (yay!)
Consumption 1 (boo!)
Treasury 0
Control DC 24

Kaalib: over to you for tax collection

Next turn, we should claim the fangberries and build a farm - that bonus will take care of consumption for a while, enough for us to subsequently claim the gold mine and still keep consumption at zero. After that, moar farms!

EDIT: In hindsight, we blundered badly in putting a quarry on the river hex D5; it should have been a farm, with a quarry in any of the non-river hill hexes. Oh well.

Turn 3

Phase 1 Upkeep
Step 1: Stability Roll, Success!
Step 2: Consumption -1
Step 3: No magic items
Step 4: Success with Unrest 0 +1BP

Phase 2:
Step 1: Spymaster changes to Economy bonus instead of stability bonus.
Step 2: Claim D4. -1 BP
Step 3: Terrain Improvements: Build Farm. -4BP
Step 4: Build Shop -8 BP +1 Economy
Step 5: No Army
Step 6: Edicts: 1 Holiday a year +1 Consumption (Since we don't pay consumption, this won't effect us until next month.)

Phase 3:
Steps 1-3, not really doing them...
Step 4: Economy Roll: 1d20 + 19 ⇒ (10) + 19 = 29
+9 BP +1 BP Quarry

New BP Total: 13 - 1 + 1 - 1 - 4 - 8 + 9 + 1 = 10

Awesome - looks like our numbers actually match! This pleases me.

Ok, over to OGGM for the event roll, then on to turn 4!

Except you have done different things.

Event turn 3: 1d100 ⇒ 36 =no event.

Except you have done different things.

Have we? Bugger. I was sure we'd got it right this time... Will take a look.

EDIT: Ok, I've had a look and I can't see it. We've both added 1 BP for the Stability check, we've both deducted 1 BP for consumption, we've both claimed the same hex D4, we've both built a farm, we've both built a shop, we've both included the festival edict, we have the same bonuses and penalties for everything.

Can you be more specific about what we've done that's different?

Ok, looking at the mp in the second book, it appears I've made a slight error. Row 6 has encounter areas for River Runs Red, and these didn't show up in the first book when I gave you the map and said you can count those explored. To fix this, give me an order that you will explore these hexes, and I will run 'side adventures' that occur during the first few months of kingdom building.

Is it worth getting an NPC to do the job and moving Edric to royal enforcer? Since diplomatic and exploration edicts are both an optional extra Edric may well be more useful as enforcer and Taalia can do any PC diplomacy herself. The NPC could hold the position so we don't lose stability and then OGGM can just handwave the diplomatic side of things as and when...

Works for me! Now to find that NPC...

Next turn, we should claim the fangberries and build a farm - that bonus will take care of consumption for a while, enough for us to subsequently claim the gold mine and still keep consumption at zero. After that, moar farms!

Turn 4 sounds good to me.

EDIT: In hindsight, we blundered badly in putting a quarry on the river hex D5; it should have been a farm, with a quarry in any of the non-river hill hexes. Oh well.

I've decided that I will not be looking at any mechanical benefits to any buildings/improvements. Talia's going purely off what she thinks is needed for the kingdom, and as befits her low wisdom score, this will turn out wrong at times. So, advisers are important!

Sorry my mistake I thought you were building a canel rather than a shop but looking again I was wrong.

@ Dregan, I think you are supposed to roll stability checks.

Yeah I saw that. Doesn't worry me either way, u give you or anyone else to make the roll.

Month 4 stability: 1d20 + 18 ⇒ (2) + 18 = 20

Unrest! We have unrest! The peasants are revolting!

Ok, looking at the mp in the second book, it appears I've made a slight error. Row 6 has encounter areas for River Runs Red, and these didn't show up in the first book when I gave you the map and said you can count those explored. To fix this, give me an order that you will explore these hexes, and I will run 'side adventures' that occur during the first few months of kingdom building.

OK, let's do the row 6 hexes to the right of Concord, and then come back and do the ones to the left.

I've decided that I will not be looking at any mechanical benefits to any buildings/improvements. Talia's going purely off what she thinks is needed for the kingdom, and as befits her low wisdom score, this will turn out wrong at times. So, advisers are important!

I'm actually just fine with this. A pouty leader is a cute leader.

Recommendation to claim Fangberry Hex, Build Farm, and for a building, we should build a park. Not only will it reduce unrest before I have roll economy, but it's nice and cheap, and benefits our loyalty as well. So, assuming our leader will like a park because it's pretty...
Turn 4

Phase 1 Upkeep
Step 1: Stability Roll, Failure! Unrest increases by 1
Step 2: Consumption -2
Step 3: No magic items
Step 4: No Enforcer

Phase 2:
Step 1: No change in leadership
Step 2: Claim C5. -1 BP
Step 3: Terrain Improvements: Build Farm. -4BP +1 Economy Consumption +3
Step 4: Build Park -4 BP +1 Loyalty -1 Unrest
Step 5: No Army
Step 6: Edicts: No change

Phase 3:
Steps 1-3, not really doing them...
Step 4: Economy Roll: 1d20 + 20 ⇒ (12) + 20 = 32
+10 BP +1 BP Quarry

10 - 2 - 1 - 4 - 4 + 10 + 1 = 10

Note 1: I just realized that we're not subject to a limit of improvements in each hex. We can have Farms and Quarries and Fisheries in the same hex. When we are unable to expand, or unwilling, we can still improve the hexes we have more so we can have more benefits with less territory.

Note 2: I'm going to be pretty much unavailable until Tuesday. We're going so much faster in our building, and now that OGGM is planning on doing some side quests in the first couple months of building, I think we can afford to take some time and wait to finish this stuff. We're only starting to get the hang of this, so a little extra time polishing our knowledge of the the rules is good too.

So, assuming our leader will like a park because it's pretty...

Parks are fantastic! Talia loves her daily constitutional!

Note 1: I just realized that we're not subject to a limit of improvements in each hex. We can have Farms and Quarries and Fisheries in the same hex. When we are unable to expand, or unwilling, we can still improve the hexes we have more so we can have more benefits with less territory.

Sort of - most improvements can be stacked, but a few cannot. Anything with a * next to it can be stacked with other improvements (which is everything but a mine/quarry/sawmill).

Ah, fair enough. Missed that part. But farms and fisheries, watchtowers and roads. All those are good.

Cool.

Kaalib, sorry - where are you getting consumption 2 from? I have consumption listed as 1 for the start of turn 4.

No issues with building a park.

I'll get the spreadsheet updated this evening.

If claiming the fang berry hex don't we have the same problem as before with having to build a canel as well?
Additionally if consumption is 2 are we spending BPs before we have them?

I forgot to account for the farm we built last turn. That's where!

We should be up to 12 BP then, right?

Edit:

@Dregan, farms must be built with water in the hex, or adjacent to two other hexes with farms. We have that now, we didn't last turn.

Unrest! We have unrest! The peasants are revolting!

OK, let's do the row 6 hexes to the right of Concord, and then come back and do the ones to the left.

Seconded.