Mended Wall's PBP for beginners (Inactive)

Game Master Hoary and Wizened

I'm wondering if it bothers anybody if I move things forward by having Kimi take the envoy directly to Lady C. I noticed, now, that Lunarinus post said "lead on..." I'm guessing he wanted me to take the reins there and move things forward, already...

Opinions? Anyone that wants to chime in, please do. Should I just move things forward by having Kimi lead the envoy through the city to the church, and then have Lady Cirthana take over?

I think that's solid.

Would you like us to switch between discussion and gameplay threads for non-narrative matters, as fitting?

I think that's solid.

Would you like us to switch between discussion and gameplay threads for non-narrative matters, as fitting?

Yes, that's how I've seen it work the best. Good question, thanks for asking! :)

Sorry. It's that patience issue we've all been talking about. Can we retcon that when Illaim asked if anyone was there, he mean besides the crowd of customers, past whom he couldn't actually see Laurel or anyone else who seemed to be in charge? He is much shorter than all of them, after all. I'll try to slow down so I can follow your lead, and PM if I'm about to do something potentially disruptive like this again.

That sounds perfectly reasonable. Seeing a line like the one that is leaving Laurel's shop might in fact make one wonder, "is anybody actually here running this show?!" So that's where we'll leave that. Illiam was wondering if in fact anybody was even running the shop since the line was so long and, for his part, didn't even look like it was moving.

Great retcon, and now to address his rudeness. :)

Great retcon, and now to address his rudeness. :)

Dealing with a rude character is better than dealing with a continuity problem. Glad we got that sorted out.

Please, at least tell me that if/when the real envoy get here, Laurel is going to be skeptical because she's already heard that lie today.

Oh I'm sure she'll be skeptical, but the fact that they have signed papers from Bishop Trenysyr in Almas will probably go a long way to alleviating her skepticism. :D

Yes, I totally looked behind the spoiler, and I totally laughed, too.

Good play, though, Illiam. :)

I'm wondering if it bothers anybody if I move things forward by having Kimi take the envoy directly to Lady C. I noticed, now, that Lunarinus post said "lead on..." I'm guessing he wanted me to take the reins there and move things forward, already...

Opinions? Anyone that wants to chime in, please do. Should I just move things forward by having Kimi lead the envoy through the city to the church, and then have Lady Cirthana take over?

Just wanted to say that I'm taking my own advice on patience here. I want everyone to have a chance to narrate their reactions to even seemingly insignificant NPC situations. That's what makes stories more real, for me anyway, the fact that every NPC is a person, and each interaction is real and could affect what happens afterward. So, I'm going to wait until, probably, at least tomorrow afternoon before I push anything forward.

Then should I delete my latest post in Gameplay?

EDIT: Nevermind. Already edited.

Too true. Misaligned locations and map numbers. Oops.

Who said Kimi was taking them past Roots and Remedies?

Illiam can you put that previous post in {ooc} for me? Appreciate it. The description of Roots and Remedies is as follows: The smell of burnt earth and spicy incense chokes the air of the cramped, mud-tracked shop. Bunches of dried herbs hang from the ceiling, along with dangling pots, presses, alchemical apparatuses, and glassware of more arcane purposes. Pouches of rare plants, jars of colored glass, and all manner of dried, preserved, and jellied animal parts fill high shelves and tables doing double duty as displays and workspaces.

As to the layout it is a square two story building. The main floor is dominated by a counter that runs end to end, behind which are the various shelves full of her ingredients and goods. The counter is unbroken, but there is a section with hinges that looks like it would act as a doorway to get behind the counter. From Illiam's vantage point he can see that there is a doorway to the back room, but it is covered in a beaded curtain, that blocks line of sight to what lies beyond.

Wasn't sure if that should be OOC or not, since I was trying to narrate what he was trying to look for, and I thought you'd probably ask for a perception check. It did end up phrased as an OOC post, though.

You didn't mention anything that looked like a journal in the description, should I roll to try to spot something like that?

The post Kairon deleted mentioned him noticing the line out the door.

The post Kairon deleted mentioned him noticing the line out the door.

Ah! Okay, never saw it. She would indeed be a poor guide if she took them that way, but trust me when I tell you, they will end up there sooner or later. :)

I'm a ninja.

Ah! Okay, never saw it. She would indeed be a poor guide if she took them that way, but trust me when I tell you, they will end up there sooner or later. :)

I know that. More importantly, my character suspects it. That's part of the reason he's not willing to wait in line and wants to look for a book or notes instead.

That brings up the question of how you want to handle perception checks. Do you want us to wait for you to say to roll those like other checks? Should we just roll one when we think we need to (though there may be nothing to see)? Are you going to roll them yourself using our bonuses (I've heard of DMs who are particularly concerned about metagaming doing this). In case it's the last one, and you're going to roll a perception check for Illiam to look for a journal/notes, I should mention that I intend to use my adaptable luck bonus (because I don't seem to have any actual luck).

That brings up the question of how you want to handle perception checks. Do you want us to wait for you to say to roll those like other checks? Should we just roll one when we think we need to (though there may be nothing to see)? Are you going to roll them yourself using our bonuses (I've heard of DMs who are particularly concerned about metagaming doing this). In case it's the last one, and you're going to roll a perception check for Illiam to look for a journal/notes, I should mention that I intend to use my adaptable luck bonus (because I don't seem to have any actual luck).

Great question, the way I usually run it is that if you tell me you are looking for something, and it is capable of being seen, I'll ask for a Perception check (if it isn't capable of being seen, I won't waste everyone's time by calling for a pointless Perception check). Otherwise sometimes Perception checks are needed before combat or in combat, like to see someone that is concealed or stealthed, and for those I'll ask you to roll them whenever it is pertinent. I know some GMs will roll those themselves because telling players to roll a perception check in the middle of nowhere usually tips off that there is an invisible enemy around, but having the player know that something's around doesn't make it any easier for the character to find it. :) So I don't mind calling for those Perception checks. As far as Illiam's current situation, a Perception check is pointless as the only book in the front room is Laurel's account book/inventory. Illiam could roll a forty on a twenty-sided dice for a perception check, and he still would see just what was described earlier, though in that case he might smell some of the pocket lint in the nearby patron's pockets. :)

Here's another question: when it comes to NPC interactions and relationships, do you rely on skill checks (as called for/dictated by the rules) to account for building them? Or is there a method you apply for "first impressions"? Pertaining to the PCs, I mean.

I understand that Diplomacy and Intimidate take time to apply, but I doubt that every social interaction will call for a "social skill" check -- Kairon likes to get a sense of others in terms of who'd be most likely to have his back. Would that be a 'Hunch' Sense Motive? Or maybe just a stacked pair of Cha/Wis checks?

I almost feel sorry for Illiam! The dice just aren't rolling in his favor!

Here's another question: when it comes to NPC interactions and relationships, do you rely on skill checks (as called for/dictated by the rules) to account for building them? Or is there a method you apply for "first impressions"? Pertaining to the PCs, I mean.

I understand that Diplomacy and Intimidate take time to apply, but I doubt that every social interaction will call for a "social skill" check -- Kairon likes to get a sense of others in terms of who'd be most likely to have his back. Would that be a 'Hunch' Sense Motive? Or maybe just a stacked pair of Cha/Wis checks?

Syrus, I'm assuming by this you're asking about Kairon putting his trust in certain NPCs in town to come to his aid or be his friends. This is one of those areas for me where I might actually deviate from the rules quite a bit. It is my hope and genuine challenge to make sure that you, the player, have a very good idea of what NPC attitudes toward you are just by the way I narrate their demeanor, and the words I choose for them to use. For NPCs that are either indifferent or friendly, it should seem pretty obvious that they are either looking to help, or might help with a small nudge. In those cases I don't use the diplomacy rules, unless you're making a request of an indifferent NPC that would put them out a great deal. For those interactions I just run them the way I think the NPC would act. If, though, an NPC has an unfriendly or worse attitude toward the PCs, hopefully you see that too in the narration and their dialogue. In those cases, certainly it would be a regular use of the diplomacy or intimidate rules to maneuver the social situation.

So, long story short, I don't run every NPC like a skill check. I run them like a regular person. If skill checks are called for because I think what you're asking isn't on course with how they'd normally act or react, then I'll call for them.

Make sense?

I almost feel sorry for Illiam! The dice just aren't rolling in his favor!

That's the game though. Good rolls for PC and NPC alike are to be rewarded. It's part of what makes it so fun to roll the dice. The outcome affects everything. I agree though, Illiam definitely has had his share of ill dice luck thus far. In my experience though, even with PBP, that means he'll be due for some great dice rolls in the future.

Roger that!

Damnit. It's only one guy who saw him, and he stepped out of the line, right? Can the other people in line still see him? I'm seriously considering casting sleep on his ass, though with my luck he'd roll a nat-20 on the will save. That and if I start burning my highest-level spells here, I'll definitely need to wait until the next day to head out of town...

I'm also having a little trouble figuring out how someone who was close enough to hear the conversation inside was able to spot me behind the building, but I won't argue.

I'm going to have to think about what I'm going to do. Maybe I should just stop trying to do anything that requires rolling dice...

Oh, here's a question, what's the outhouse situation in the areas Illiam would have seen? Depending on that, I'm thinking he might make the excuse that he's trying to find private a place to take a leak.

Illiam, I think you're thinking about the guy in line in isolation. After Illiam was essentially kicked out of the store, some time had obviously passed, during that time, in my estimation of how small-town people are, people in line, for want of something better to talk about, would have been all abuzz about the new halfling (because there is only one other halfling in town, and he's the magistrate) in town, and how he got summarily booted out of Laurel's for being rude. Also Illiam walked right up the street past the line of patrons, that's the direction the line is heading, north, so as not to intersect the low market. So seeing a halfling skulking around, and knowing it isn't Vamros Harg, this wise chap put one and one together and got two.

As for outhouses, each house in town has a privvy with a chamber pot. Otherwise, the less civilized people, and the drunkards, just find a quiet corner and piss wherever.

I will raise a matter for discussion.

"Secret GM rolls: Hide

Commoner Perception: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (20) + 3 = 23
Commoner Perception: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (16) + 3 = 19
Commoner Perception: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (2) + 3 = 5
Commoner Perception: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (4) + 3 = 7
City Guard Perception: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (4) + 3 = 7
City Guard Perception: 1d20 + 3 ⇒ (6) + 3 = 9 "

Illiam rolled 1d20 [=5] +15 =20.

If stealth is rolled and each observer rolls perception, then the stealth roll is almost an automatic fail unless the stealth skill is overwhelmingly better than the perception skills.

Despite having a stealth roll of +15 vs per rolls of +3 it is actually quite likely Illiam will fail.

If the observers and Illiam had the same modifiers the chances of Illiam succeeding is almost zero.

It gets even worse if there is more than 1 person trying to sneak, if Illaim had 2 companions trying to sneak it would be best of 6 per rolls vs worst of 3 stealth rolls.

I use a house rule whereby in a situation like the one in the last para, the person with the best per modifier rolls and the person with the worst stealth roll each roll. That sounds bad for the group trying to stealth, but it is possible to succeed.

Illiam, I think you're thinking about the guy in line in isolation. After Illiam was essentially kicked out of the store, some time had obviously passed, during that time, in my estimation of how small-town people are, people in line, for want of something better to talk about, would have been all abuzz about the new halfling (because there is only one other halfling in town, and he's the magistrate) in town, and how he got summarily booted out of Laurel's for being rude. Also Illiam walked right up the street past the line of patrons, that's the direction the line is heading, north, so as not to intersect the low market. So seeing a halfling skulking around, and knowing it isn't Vamros Harg, this wise chap put one and one together and got two.

As for outhouses, each house in town has a privvy with a chamber pot. Otherwise, the less civilized people, and the drunkards, just find a quiet corner and piss wherever.

I didn't think that much time passed, but ok, I guess I can buy that this is one of those small towns where gossip travels somewhere around Mach 2. I probably wouldn't have walked past the line of people if I realized it extended in that direction, though. I also would have looked for a different route if I knew I would be opposing that many perception checks (and that's not metagaming, it means Illiam would try to sneak where there are fewer people for him to hide from). Especially knowing the trend in dice rolls (ok, I'll admit, that part is metagaming a little bit, but it can just as well be explained in-game as Illiam knowing that he's having a run of bad luck).

But like I said, (though it may look otherwise) I really don't want to argue about it.

Actually, now I'm wishing I really did have Illiam ask to use the privy. If it worked, he wouldn't have had to do the sneaking, and if it didn't at least there's a chance the gossip would have included that supporting fact. Wish I'd thought of it sooner, especially because Illiam probably would have...

I have a sneaking suspicion Illiam may be sent to try to find a cure for the illness not in the hopes he will aid the endeavor but to get him out of town.

It's beginning to look that way. If this run of bad luck continues, he'll eventually get arrested, and the sheriff/chief guard/whatever will probably end up doing to him the same thing that Payday is apparently going to do to Dolok.

Hey, Chillel is silly enough to deliberately involve herself in the dangerous venture.

And if you read my last post in the thread, it isn't exactly bad luck. It is the way the RAW works out for stealth.

The fact that the DM keeps rolling in the high teens while I can't roll anything over a 5 is bad luck. I had a combined bonus of 15, which, with even a slightly-below-average roll, should have made my check unbeatable with the NPCs' bonuses.

BTW, if you do the math on opposing rolls with my bonus exceeding theirs by 12, each of them should have only had a 7% chance of beating my check. Bad luck.

After I rolled the 5, this probability increased to 15%.

And the chance of at least one of them exceeding your total is 1-[0.85 to the power of 6] = 37.7%.

Do perception rolls win ties? Your post assumes it does.

My post assumes that my stealth would win the tie.

I've been trying to decide for some time whether opposed checks are actually a good idea because they allow twice the range of outcomes of all other skill checks that have a set DC (though, admittedly, the system prefers results toward the center of the distribution). The alternative would be to force one side or the other to be passive, creating a set DC for the other roll and giving them the same chance of success/failure as other skill checks. In cases like this, everybody's perception would have been a set DC based on their modifier (if the precedence of passive perception scores from 4e and 5e was used), or my stealth could have been considered a fixed DC (of 25) that they would each roll against. This, of course, would make more sense if I was hiding and they were actively searching for me. After seeing how this went, I think I'm going to start running it that was in the game I DM (that is, if I can ever get my players to use a skill instead of just trying to kill things).

As for the math, running either side as a static 10+bonus DC would have resulted in a success for the stealth check, but my earlier bluff check still would have failed (just not by such an absurd margin).

To those that don't find it interesting, sorry for all the statistics nerdery.

Too much nerdy statistics. Nay too little.

I make the chance of each of the people trying to observe your character before your poor roll 16.5%, as opposed to your 7%. Someone is doing the wrong calculation.

I don't think my house rule described earlier is perfect. But its better than the RAW imho, and opens the possibility of stealth working in like circumstances.

Please ignore the second sentence in my last post. It is me who was doing the wrong calculation and Illiam is dead right. :(

brandishes holy symbol of Crayola at Chillel and Illiam

In the name of playtime and fun-ness, we purge the demon of advanced mathematics from among us! Shield us, oh great Crayola, from the maddening metronome, from the bland order, . . . from the cosmic horror of analyzed variance!!! Begone, vile spirit of the numbers that crunch -- the Lord of Red Strawberries and Purple Polka-Dot Monsters commands it!

Wanna color with me??

brandishes holy symbol of Crayola at Chillel and Illiam

In the name of playtime and fun-ness, we purge the demon of advanced mathematics from among us! Shield us, oh great Crayola, from the maddening metronome, from the bland order, . . . from the cosmic horror of analyzed variance!!! Begone, vile spirit of the numbers that crunch -- the Lord of Red Strawberries and Purple Polka-Dot Monsters commands it!

Wanna color with me??

I like this post! Hahaha!

I have to side with Syrus on this one. I've never been a numbers guy. In fact I was both terrible at, and hated, math in high school and college. Which essentially means that all of the posts between Illiam and Chillel about probabilities didn't even register with me. I understand that the mechanics favor the observer not the "stealther," (especially when there are multiple observers) but in my experience that tends to work out very well for PCs when things are trying to hide from them, and the game is geared to help the PCs. I'm sorry if running stealth by RAW in this instance caused no fun, but that is the system we're playing in. I've been in situations where the party's fighter literally had to roll a 20 in order to hit a BBEG. We still played it out, and believe it or not, the party still won.

Dice matter. For me that's part of the fun of the game. I have a cleric in another game who rolled a 1 on two or three consecutive channel energy bursts. That was not particularly satisfying, but I moved on.

You will never see me calculating probabilities of success either before, during, or after a dice rolling situation. If we were at a table you would hear me groan or cheer when dice rolls are particularly awful or good. If you want me to, I'll put some OOC groans and cheers in from now on. I won't, however, apologize for running mechanics according to the rules.

I also wanted to let everyone know that I have a particularly busy day at work today, and this is the only thing I'll be able to post for a long while, perhaps even late into the afternoon, but I will try to get something up in the gameplay thread before I leave work.

Cheers and happy gaming!
MW

To be fair, I wish I *could* do mathematics better. Chalk my snark up to a bit of jealousy. :)

EDIT: Crayola -- Greater Deity
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Domains: Air, Chaos, Community, Liberation, Sun
Subdomains: Riot, Whimsy, Education, Freedom, Day, Light

For those who'd want to know. :)

EDIT 2: And now I'm gonna have to make a "priest of the rainbow" cleric sometime -- crayon box holy symbol, randomly-determined prismatic blasts, mega-ultimate color sprays.

brandishes holy symbol of Crayola at Chillel and Illiam

In the name of playtime and fun-ness, we purge the demon of advanced mathematics from among us! Shield us, oh great Crayola, from the maddening metronome, from the bland order, . . . from the cosmic horror of analyzed variance!!! Begone, vile spirit of the numbers that crunch -- the Lord of Red Strawberries and Purple Polka-Dot Monsters commands it!

We are amused.

You don't have to read the mathematical posts you know. :P

I will keep the calculations to a minimum.

@ Mended Wall- The need to do ones job and make a living sometimes must take priority over things as important as RPGs.

We are amused.

You don't have to read the mathematical posts you know. :P

I will keep the calculations to a minimum.

@ Mended Wall- The need to do ones job and make a living sometimes must take priority over things as important as RPGs.

Oh, I know. But if I didn't keep both eyes open for the boogeyman, I'd never get to be hysterical, now would I?? :D

But math away. You don't have to be distracted by my antics, either. lol

My post assumes that my stealth would win the tie.

Just wanted to say that, I don't know if this is how it is supposed to be, because I've never bothered to check, but, I always rule that a PC wins a tie. Like I said, the game is supposed to favor PCs. :)

Edit: The exception to that rule is obviously attacks. AC is the target number, so if a monster/NPC rolls your armor class, that's a hit, not a tie. ;-)

I'm kicking myself for not learning Vanish as one of my spells. I didn't take it at level 1 because it would only last one round, but casting it as a standard, stepping around the corner and up to the keyhole as a move, and shifting inside as a swift would have done the job.

Chillel and I are just being like this.

But if we're the only ones enjoying it, maybe we should start a PM thread or something.

It's fine, it's fine!! Carry on with your mathematic madness!! lol

I don't think Mended dropped algebraic forbiddance (I could be wrong); rather, he was just agreeing with the snarky sentiment I threw y'all's way.

Can you ignore heckling from the peanut gallery?

BTW Syrus, your character's name has been reminding me of this since his first post.