Why did ghosts lose the ability to manifest?

As per title of the thread. I'm really curious about this one.

As per title of the thread. I'm really curious about this one.

The removal of manifestation is most likely due to the fact that ghosts are no longer directly related to the Ethereal Plane.

Manifestation allowed the ghost to pass from the Ethereal to the Material world and explained how ghosts should be run when they were located on their home plane.

Now that ghosts are simply incorporeal (not ethereal) creatures, they no longer need the manifest ability.

I'm sure someone smarter about this will come along and correct me if I'm wrong. Unfortunately, I mentioned manifestation in my RPG Superstar Wondrous Item entry this year...I'm still kicking myself for that mistake.

Correct. In 3.5, ghosts existed partially on the ethereal plane, and in order to be able to affect those on the material plane at all they had the manifest ability. Unfortunately, this setup caused some pretty significant problems. First, it confused people as to what being ethereal and incorporeal meant. Second, and more importantly, it meant that ghosts simply couldn't exist anywhere that wasn't coterminous with the ethereal plane... such as the outer planes.

In Pathfinder, ghosts are simply incorporeal undead, like wraiths or specters. They don't partially exist on two planes; they exist wholly on one plane but simply aren't corporeal. This allows ghosts to exist on any plane and removes the only awkward "ethereal means incorporeal" element from the game. ALSO: by not having to include the long and awkward rules for the manifest ability, we got a sizable paragraph of text back to play with, which let us punch up the advice on what ghosts are and how they work. Which FURTHER separates them from things like wraiths and specters.

Okay, I understand so far. Just two questions; 1) Other than malevolence, is the only way ghosts can interact with the mortal world with their telekinesis or manipulating ghost touch items? 2) What the heck does the following sentence mean; "A proper encounter with a ghost should be a climactic scene after a lengthy period of tension building with lesser minions or manifestations of the undead spirit."

See, I knew someone smarter would give you more info. ;-)

However, I think I can answer to your questions:

Okay, I understand so far. Just two questions; 1) Other than malevolence, is the only way ghosts can interact with the mortal world with their telekinesis or manipulating ghost touch items?

Correct. Per the universal monster rules for the incorporeal trait, incorporeal creatures "cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions."

My read of the description is that the only way a ghost would be able to use a ghost touch weapon is if it the person possessed such a weapon when he or she died. The real weapon would remain behind, but the ghostly "copy" that follows the spirit into undeath would have the same properties.

The equipment works normally for the ghost but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures, but any such attack deals only half as much damage (50%) unless it is a ghost touch weapon. A ghost can use shields or armor only if they have the ghost touch quality.

All of this refers to weapons or items owned by the ghost when it died. Otherwise, the spirit can't lift anything itself (even a different ghost touch weapon), because it has no strength score (due to being incorporeal). Of course, it can use telekinesis if it has that ability, but not every ghost will.

2) What the heck does the following sentence mean; "A proper encounter with a ghost should be a climactic scene after a lengthy period of tension building with lesser minions or manifestations of the undead spirit."

The sentence displays one of those troubles the Paizonians often lament about game design. It steals words.

In this case, "manifestation" does not refer to the game term for an ability but to the "appearance" or "existence" of the spirit. In paranormal parlance, a ghost can "manifest" in many different ways. Even a disembodied voice or strange shadows can be "manifestations" of an unsettled spirit. That's what they mean there. The idea is that you should have the spirit do things or cause events to happen that put the characters on edge, long before revealing the spirit to them directly.

If you ask me, the best example of this is the use of haunts in the first adventure path. That mechanic is one of the most fantastic innovations Paizo has brought to the game.

What Paris said.

And to further reinforce: the use of the word "manifestations" is simply as a word. There's no game rules element attached to the word, since manifestation is no longer a ghost ability. The sentence:

"A proper encounter with a ghost should be a climactic scene after a lengthy period of tension building with lesser minions or manifestations of the undead spirit."

means the same as this sentence:

"A proper encounter with a ghost should be a climactic scene after a lengthy period of tension building with lesser minions or appearances of the undead spirit."

I just chose the word "manifestations" instead of "appearances" because it's technically and grammatically a more accurate word to use in the sentence.

If you ask me, the best example of this is the use of haunts in the first adventure path. That mechanic is one of the most fantastic innovations Paizo has brought to the game.

Speaking of haunts, any word on when and where we'll see revisions of haunt mechanics to follow up on the changes made to clerics?

Paris Crenshaw wrote:

If you ask me, the best example of this is the use of haunts in the first adventure path. That mechanic is one of the most fantastic innovations Paizo has brought to the game.

Speaking of haunts, any word on when and where we'll see revisions of haunt mechanics to follow up on the changes made to clerics?

Pathfinder #27. Then they're finally showing up in hardcover form in the Gamemastery Guide.

Then they're finally showing up in hardcover form in the Gamemastery Guide.

That sound you just heard was NOT me squealing with delight. No really.

What?

;-)

Tarren Dei wrote:

Paris Crenshaw wrote:

If you ask me, the best example of this is the use of haunts in the first adventure path. That mechanic is one of the most fantastic innovations Paizo has brought to the game.

Speaking of haunts, any word on when and where we'll see revisions of haunt mechanics to follow up on the changes made to clerics?

Pathfinder #27. Then they're finally showing up in hardcover form in the Gamemastery Guide.

awesome, I love haunts.

Haunts add such a great flavor to the game! Oh yes... I have such plans for haunts...

The removal of manifestation is most likely due to the fact that ghosts are no longer directly related to the Ethereal Plane.

I didn't realise that they changed it. Good idea!

Per the universal monster rules for the incorporeal trait, incorporeal creatures "cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions."

My read of the description is that the only way a ghost would be able to use a ghost touch weapon is if it the person possessed such a weapon when he or she died. The real weapon would remain behind, but the ghostly "copy" that follows the spirit into undeath would have the same properties.

PRD entry on Ghosts wrote:

The equipment works normally for the ghost but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures, but any such attack deals only half as much damage (50%) unless it is a ghost touch weapon. A ghost can use shields or armor only if they have the ghost touch quality.

All of this refers to weapons or items owned by the ghost when it died. Otherwise, the spirit can't lift anything itself (even a different ghost touch weapon), because it has no strength score (due to being incorporeal). Of course, it can use telekinesis if it has that ability, but not every ghost will.

I have to disagree with your interpretation of Ghost Touch weapons and how a ghost would interact with them.

Ghost Touch: A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. An incorporeal creature's 50% reduction in damage from corporeal sources does not apply to attacks made against it with ghost touch weapons. The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as both corporeal and incorporeal.

So a ghost (or any other incorporeal creature) could interact with a ghost touch weapon regardless of the fact that they have no Strength score and are incorporeal. In that case, the ghost would just have a 0 Strength bonus to attack and damage if it made an attack with the weapon.

You're probably right, Wolf. I hadn't checked the magic item property rules before I posted. The wording in the Core Rules needs to be changed to remove the mention of manifesting ghosts (since ghosts no longer have the "manifestation" ability), but I can't argue that the property very clearly states that incorporeal creatures can pick up and move a ghost touch weapon.

Thanks for catching my mistake!

A mere rumor.

Correct. In 3.5, ghosts existed partially on the ethereal plane, and in order to be able to affect those on the material plane at all they had the manifest ability. Unfortunately, this setup caused some pretty significant problems. First, it confused people as to what being ethereal and incorporeal meant. Second, and more importantly, it meant that ghosts simply couldn't exist anywhere that wasn't coterminous with the ethereal plane... such as the outer planes.

In Pathfinder, ghosts are simply incorporeal undead, like wraiths or specters. They don't partially exist on two planes; they exist wholly on one plane but simply aren't corporeal. This allows ghosts to exist on any plane and removes the only awkward "ethereal means incorporeal" element from the game. ALSO: by not having to include the long and awkward rules for the manifest ability, we got a sizable paragraph of text back to play with, which let us punch up the advice on what ghosts are and how they work. Which FURTHER separates them from things like wraiths and specters.

The ghost sight trait still references ethereal undead. Doesn't that make it useless as that term doesn't exist anymore?

You're probably right, Wolf. I hadn't checked the magic item property rules before I posted. The wording in the Core Rules needs to be changed to remove the mention of manifesting ghosts (since ghosts no longer have the "manifestation" ability), but I can't argue that the property very clearly states that incorporeal creatures can pick up and move a ghost touch weapon.

Thanks for catching my mistake!

I'm used to rules in 3.5e so every time I think I know an answer to something I get to look it up in PRPG and see if I'm actually right for this system or whether I'm operating on outdated info.

I hadn't noticed Manifestation (Su) was removed until it was pointed out in this thread. Sounds like a great change though. (I've noted the action type with it to distinguish it from the non-mechanics form of manifestation.)