Two-weapon Paladin: double the smiting, same container!

Our group is starting up a round-robin style game where GMs switch off after each arc, and since everyone agreed to be good guys (as in good alignment) I'm taking a crack at paladin. I really want to go dual-wield build, as I have incredibly good stat rolls (15, 16, 16, 18, 18, 13) but I can't decide on archetypes for a two-weapon paladin. Any suggestions?

no archetype is better suited for TWF for a paladin than another.

Personally I suggest go ranged and go divine hunter paladin to get an archery feat free. You have the stats for it and you don't have to worry about enhancing two weapons.

Base paladin is pretty good, honestly. Thunder and Fang(feat) is good for a Shoanti.

I second archery, but I do not recommend Divine Hunter, the tradeoffs are overall not worth it. If you really want to do melee, try it with a sword & light shield. Thunder and Fang is cool and all, but three extra feats on top of the usual TWF line, on a class with no bonus feats, is harsh.

If you really want to do melee, try it with a sword & light shield.

Scimitar/light shield is a pretty decent choice. Make the shield a quickdraw version (upgrade to a bashing mithral version ASAP) so you can switch-hit more effectively: start with a bow, then ready scimitar and shield when (if) they get close.

Human paladin (Sarenrae)
Trait: Flame of the Dawnflower
1st- Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting
3rd- Quick Draw
5th- ? (Channel Smite?)
7th- Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
9th- Improved Critical (Scimitar)
11th- Shield Slam
13th- Shield Master
15th- Bashing Finish

Alternately, you could go without Quick Draw and take Power Attack at 3rd, Cleave at 5th, and Cleaving Finish as well to gain an extra attack when dropping an opponent.

IMO, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting is not worth taking.

Paladin doesn't really need archetypes to be an effective dual-wielder. Although, since you're dual-wielding, you can afford to drop the Lay on Hands, and Divine Bond with a weapon becomes less important. Oath of Vengeance is an option, but it's really an option for all Paladins. Chosen One is made more palatable (unless you were picking a mount), since divine bonding with two weapons either cuts into your feats or your enhancement bonus. Divine Defender is OK if you are planning on a more defensive sword and board build. Enforcer is a sidegrade. Gray Paladin is as bad as normal- it doesn't get significantly worse.

The Dual Enhancement feat is an option for a TWFer.

Your stats would also make an absolutely untouchable Monk or frightening UMonk 1/Cleric. STR>WIS>DEX>CON>INT>CHA would give you a beastly 17 AC (pre-racials) at 1st level, which is only 1 point lower than the Scale Mail you'd have as a Paladin. In addition, you'd have more attacks than a Paladin.

I made a half-elf hammer & shield dual-weapon fighting paladin, that used the Bully trait, Bludgeoner feat, Enforcer feat, and the free Skill Focus from being a half-elf in Intimidate to be a de-buffer double smiter paladin. It also used the Two-Weapon Fighting feat chain AND the Shield Bashing feat chain. It used up a lot of feats, but was fun!

The key was to 2-weapon fight with warhammer and heavy shield, doing bludgeoning damage to cause non-lethal damage with the Bludgeoner feat, and Intimidate the bejeezus out of the foes with the Enforcer feat (using the Bully trait and Skill Focus to get +4 or +7 to those free Intimidate checks).

EDIT:

I think there is a trait that pretty much does the same thing as the Bludgeoner feat. But you might have to dual-wield shortswords or something to benefit from it if you want to do the double Enforcer thing.

May I suggest you being a half elf? Dual wakizashi with high dex and weapon finesse on a paladin is just stupid powerful.

Dwarf Stonelord paladin two weapon fighting with waraxe and dwarven boulder helmet, and heavy steel shield! Why? The more appropriate question is why not? Take the Glory of Old racial trait for even stronger saves vs spells and poisons.

Dual Enhancement is very nice for a TWF Paladin.

Using a cestus or unarmed strike as offhand also means you don't give up Lay on Hands, and also means you can switch between two-handing your main weapon and TWF as a free action.

A Paladin wielding a piercing weapon and cestus can take Amateur Swashbuckler to use Dodging Panache and a Swashbuckler's Flair: Blue Scarf. With the Flair grasped in your cestus hand, you have 10 foot reach with both weapons...

you could go a 3 lvl dip into unchained rogue rest paladin to get dex to hit and damage a nice pool of skill points and class skills 2d6 sneak attack with 2 kukris and a stat aray of (15 str, 18 dex, 16 con, 13 int, 16 wis, 18 cha) and a list of races that would complement such a build are halfling, catfolk, dual talent human, drow, fetchling, ifrit, kisune, suli, dromite, xeph, teifling alternates, aasimar alternates. this will allow you to be still quite deadly in combat while also being a pretty good face for the party ie. diplomacy,bluff,intimidate you will also have a really nice ac in celetial armor later on in the campaign with your high dex and smite will more than make up for the penalties from twf against the BBEG.

May I suggest you being a half elf? Dual wakizashi with high dex and weapon finesse on a paladin is just stupid powerful.

The only problem is it doesn't leave a hand free for casting spells, using Lay on Hands, or whatever miscellaneous actions you have to do in some situation. It happens more often than you think: You're in combat and you need to drop your weapon to operate a doorknob, or pick up something that someone dropped, or what have you.

Renegadeshepherd wrote:

May I suggest you being a half elf? Dual wakizashi with high dex and weapon finesse on a paladin is just stupid powerful.

The only problem is it doesn't leave a hand free for casting spells, using Lay on Hands, or whatever miscellaneous actions you have to do in some situation. It happens more often than you think: You're in combat and you need to drop your weapon to operate a doorknob, or pick up something that someone dropped, or what have you.

I'm sorry, but whenever someone says you don't end up having a spare hand, my mind just screams two arm alchemist dip and vestigial arm. I don't even think that could be optimal. Unless...

Use that good Dexterity to Two-Hand AoO's. Probably too feat hungry for a Paladin to go into Improved Trip Shenanigans, but there aren't too many good TWF feats to worry about, so it's just picking up Combat Reflexes.

This is sort of a spiel I have about Stats and TWF. I believe you should eventually have a 17 DEX (Requirement for Improved TWF. Greater TWF isn't that good) and then pour the rest into strength. The Dexterity helps your Reflex, AC, initiative, AoO's, and some situational stuff too, so it isn't wasted if you straight up go STR-based. That's the point. Anyways if you have a third arm you could totally two-hand one of your weapons.

Why don't you just use a double weapon and save the trouble? Eh, free heals is good. Plus, rich flavor right there.

Edit: I'm not sure exactly how it'd work it, but now that I consider it you may be able to grab at least Improved Trip. Makes combat builds pretty fun when you have AoO's.

Athaleon wrote:

Renegadeshepherd wrote:

May I suggest you being a half elf? Dual wakizashi with high dex and weapon finesse on a paladin is just stupid powerful.

The only problem is it doesn't leave a hand free for casting spells, using Lay on Hands, or whatever miscellaneous actions you have to do in some situation. It happens more often than you think: You're in combat and you need to drop your weapon to operate a doorknob, or pick up something that someone dropped, or what have you.

I'm sorry, but whenever someone says you don't end up having a spare hand, my mind just screams two arm alchemist dip and vestigial arm. I don't even think that could be optimal. Unless...

Use that good Dexterity to Two-Hand AoO's. Probably too feat hungry for a Paladin to go into Improved Trip Shenanigans, but there aren't too many good TWF feats to worry about, so it's just picking up Combat Reflexes.

This is sort of a spiel I have about Stats and TWF. I believe you should eventually have a 17 DEX (Requirement for Improved TWF. Greater TWF isn't that good) and then pour the rest into strength. The Dexterity helps your Reflex, AC, initiative, AoO's, and some situational stuff too, so it isn't wasted if you straight up go STR-based. That's the point. Anyways if you have a third arm you could totally two-hand one of your weapons.

Why don't you just use a double weapon and save the trouble? Eh, free heals is good. Plus, rich flavor right there.

ya i personally dislike how you NEED to have dex to twf in my house games i made the following changes to twf and made it better

Any interest in doing a Champion of Irori? With those stats, you could rock the monk/paladin thing, and not only would flurry of blows remove the need for 2 weapon fighting feats, but you could also smite chaos, as well as evil, meaning that proteans are no longer a bother.

Plus, if you go Oath of Vengeance before going Champion of Irori, you'll not only be able to smite from your smite pool, but you can use both ki, and lay on hands to fuel your smites as well. With things like meditation crystals, a bronze gong, ki mats, and a ring of ki mastery, you should be able to smite every combat, sometimes several times per combat.

Any interest in doing a Champion of Irori? With those stats, you could rock the monk/paladin thing, and not only would flurry of blows remove the need for 2 weapon fighting feats, but you could also smite chaos, as well as evil, meaning that proteans are no longer a bother.

Plus, if you go Oath of Vengeance before going Champion of Irori, you'll not only be able to smite from your smite pool, but you can use both ki, and lay on hands to fuel your smites as well. With things like meditation crystals, a bronze gong, ki mats, and a ring of ki mastery, you should be able to smite every combat, sometimes several times per combat.

With that stat array, you could play practically anything. Champion is good in that regard. UMonk gets is a decent alternative to Monk in qualifying for Champion - You can get more full BAB attacks out. You'd probably want to go UMonk 4/Paladin 2, which puts you a level and a second strong will save behind the Monk 3/Paladin 2 route, but you'd get a ki power, actual full BAB, and more attacks at full BAB. If you took on another UMonk level, you could get a Style Strike, but at that point, you're probably better just going Paladin 2/UMonk X, since a decent amount of UMonk features don't scale with Champion of Irori.

If you wanna TWF Pally, you need to either use a cestus, unarmed strikes or lose spells.

This is because you need a free hand to cast your spells that TWF would preclude.

I recommend the Tempered Champion archetype, as TWF builds really enjoy the increased damage size, and really benefit from stuff like Weapon Specialization, which it has access too.

If you wanna TWF Pally, you need to either use a cestus, unarmed strikes or lose spells.

This is because you need a free hand to cast your spells that TWF would preclude.

Or use a Light Shield, since it leaves your hand free you can use it to hold your weapon while you cast, then switch back (both free actions).

And I don't really recommend Tempered Champion as spells (even such as a Paladin gets) are just too good to pass up for a handful of combat feats from a limited list, and a minor increase in weapon damage that doesn't really kick in until the high levels (right where spells are the most handy).

My TWF pali's only spells are not in combat, so it is not a problem. I went with Exotic Weapon proficiency (sawtooth saber) as the half-elf racial trait. Weapon focus effectiveness is immediately doubled (this is also true for a double weapon mentioned above).

I also went into dragon disciple after 5 levels of pali, which means I got crazy bonuses to strength making double strike more effective.

The hardest part was getting a front-liner's armor that let me apply my full Dex bonus to AC, but fortunately mithril was an option for me.

Secret Wizard wrote:

If you wanna TWF Pally, you need to either use a cestus, unarmed strikes or lose spells.

This is because you need a free hand to cast your spells that TWF would preclude.

Or use a Light Shield, since it leaves your hand free you can use it to hold your weapon while you cast, then switch back (both free actions).

And I don't really recommend Tempered Champion as spells (even such as a Paladin gets) are just too good to pass up for a handful of combat feats from a limited list, and a minor increase in weapon damage that doesn't really kick in until the high levels (right where spells are the most handy).

Kicks in right away for Kukri, which have great critical threat.

Plus, the ability to get more Divine Bonds off is particularly good for TWF builds that go through them faster.

Spellcasting with two weapons can be worked-around with Quick Draw fairly easily; sheathe/cast/draw is still one round. The real issue with fighting without a free hand is Lay on Hands, which is kind of a core thing to be losing.

For a Paladin concept wielding two swords or whatever, Champion of the Faith Warpriest is probably the better way to go. They still get Smite, and they get much more spellcasting with the ability to cast self-healing and other self-buffs without needing a free hand. They also get most of the normal Warpriest bonus feats, making TWF easy to do. A Champion of the Faith of Ragathiel wielding two bastard swords with Divine Favor, Destruction Blessing and Smite is damage of biblical proportions...

Consider using a double weapon to get the benefits of TWF, but still have the ability to take a hand off your weapon to lay on hands.

Spellcasting with two weapons can be worked-around with Quick Draw fairly easily; sheathe/cast/draw is still one round. The real issue with fighting without a free hand is Lay on Hands, which is kind of a core thing to be losing.

For a Paladin concept wielding two swords or whatever, Champion of the Faith Warpriest is probably the better way to go. They still get Smite, and they get much more spellcasting with the ability to cast self-healing and other self-buffs without needing a free hand. They also get most of the normal Warpriest bonus feats, making TWF easy to do. A Champion of the Faith of Ragathiel wielding two bastard swords with Divine Favor, Destruction Blessing and Smite is damage of biblical proportions...

no don't sheath your weapon as that provokes an AoO you use weapon cords on your weapons and drop them as droping doesn't provoke then use quick draw to pick them up as a free action as they are just dangling they shouldn't provoke when you draw it again

BadBird wrote:

Spellcasting with two weapons can be worked-around with Quick Draw fairly easily; sheathe/cast/draw is still one round. The real issue with fighting without a free hand is Lay on Hands, which is kind of a core thing to be losing.

For a Paladin concept wielding two swords or whatever, Champion of the Faith Warpriest is probably the better way to go. They still get Smite, and they get much more spellcasting with the ability to cast self-healing and other self-buffs without needing a free hand. They also get most of the normal Warpriest bonus feats, making TWF easy to do. A Champion of the Faith of Ragathiel wielding two bastard swords with Divine Favor, Destruction Blessing and Smite is damage of biblical proportions...

no don't sheath your weapon as that provokes an AoO you use weapon cords on your weapons and drop them as droping doesn't provoke then use quick draw to pick them up as a free action as they are just dangling they shouldn't provoke when you draw it again

I was assuming that a Paladin standing at point-blank range from a dangerous enemy wasn't going to be trying to cast a spell anyhow.

I'm pretty sure picking up a weapon with a weapon cord is still a move action that provokes (it used to be a swift action, but not anymore).

Still Spell? Maybe with Magical Lineage (Knack?) trait?

I like the combo of Bastard Sword or Dwarven Waraxe with a throwing weapon, like throwing axe, when 2 weapon fighting. It gives you a ranged option and a two-handed weapon option. And after you throw, you can swift action self-heal if you need to.

Consider using a double weapon to get the benefits of TWF, but still have the ability to take a hand off your weapon to lay on hands.

Similar suggestion, different mechanics. A one handed weapon plus a glove weapon (such as a cestus). This can allow 2 handing while still being effective when you take a hand off for TWF. Also, the gloved hand works for lay on hands.

The difference is that double weapons play nicer with specific feats (like weapon focus), but sword/cestus combo works better with general loot (since you can use that fancy sword you find laying about).

It can be close enough that I would call it personal preference really. I do like the idea of running around with a weighted spear, stabbing and bashing everything.

If you want to get really fancy, you can always grab a level of Master of Many Styles and take Ascetic Style: Temple Sword with it, then take Dragon Style/Ferocity. All attacks benefit from 1.5xSTR (or 2xSTR on the first strike), offhand attacks are made with unarmed strike and a Bodywrap of Mighty Strikes, and count as mainhand attacks (no such thing as offhand unarmed strike on a Monk). Combat Style Master is needed if a GM is really rigid about having to spend swift actions to enter combat stances after battle begins, but it's still possible to pull off all the feats - after all, you don't need to take Double Slice. As a side benefit, you can carry a light shield while doing it without any issues.