Gm DevilDoc's Blood Under Absalom Tier 5-6 (Inactive)

Game Master Awenydd83

Is it one more check to get out of the tavern?

Most of us needed two total successes to get out. Rather than continue to go in circles for five rounds, the GM has asked we just make up to four more attempts in one post to get out. Anybody near the door only needs one.

Most of us needed two total successes to get out. Rather than continue to go in circles for five rounds, the GM has asked we just make up to four more attempts in one post to get out. Anybody near the door only needs one.

Jeez, sorry, I must have missed that.

No need to be sorry.

It's the thing about these specials. We need to be on the ball and much faster in resolving what we're doing (myself included). Offering up things like our anticipated AoOs or if/then options as spoilers rather than waiting for somebody else to act first can help that.

Unlike a normal PbP which can be resolved over as much time as it takes, we have limited time to perform our encounters/actions. Sometimes not finishing in time just means the transition to the next scene will be jarring as the GM has to post narration to what we've had to do in our downtime. Other times it may come with a penalty and will be jarring as the GM explains what's happened to get us to the next scene.

The original plan to do a full circle around the initiatives could have taken five days to resolve (posting once per day minimum as we've been asked to do in this special). So I think the GM picked this as the alternative to speed it along.

It's all fine, it's the nature of specials.

Thanks for getting that, Davorin.

Also I apologize to the table for my absence yesterday. Life was.. well, life. I am back and all should be well though.

FYI, I'm taking a weekend trip with my beautiful wife to get away from the Utah cold. I'll be back on Tuesday.

Hopefully I don't miss much with it being a weekend, but I'm unlikely to post. Please bot me as necessary!

Would Davorin or Dreggar like me to cast enlarge person on them?

If not its cool, but I prefer to cast my buffs on the people who can use them best, and always on others before myself.

I am fine with enlarge person. The AC hit isn't too concerning to me.

-Posted with Wayfinder

Regarding us dispatching easily all you throw at us, I think part of the "problem" is that we are 6 and the special was written when the usual number was 4.

Also we are very melee oriented and, until now, most of the combat has been this way. We had some problems with the invisible flying oni, we are not as well prepared to counter those things.

But there's no complains, I'm having lot of fun.

That was more of a joke than anything.. I like for my tables to have a bit of a challenge is all!

As the guy one average hit from dead, dead I by the Oni (with no way to take it down in one round), I'll counter with, it's not as easy as you portray.

Also, I hear this "four player" argument all the time. It's just not true for specials, which have always assumed fill tables (since they're designed for large conventions). Any ease you're seeing has a lot more to do with power creep over 5+ years of player materials and a heavy switch to optimization over that same period. That said, certain parts of this special were easy, even when I first ran it way back in the day. Other parts assuredly are not. Tim Hithcock was never known for his grasp of game mechanics and balance. He's always been a "story guy" (one of the reasons they paired him with Baird on later Race for the Runecarved Key.

-Posted with Wayfinder

I love hearing the inside stories from people that have been around longer than I have been, Davorin. I did wonder about the variability.. some parts of this seem almost too easy, but really you are just a dice roll away from something that can be a TPK.. like the Oni Ogre Mage. When I was putting the stat cards together I showed that to a friend of mine (fellow GM that got me into pathfinder and not involved in the special in any way) and he about crapped himself!

You also bring a very valid point about the power creep. Even over the last 3 or 4 years that I have been playing Pathfinder, it as grown exponentially beginning with the classes in Advanced players guide and the archetypes they keep releasing. It does, in some ways, make me nostalgic for the old school AD+D where I began my journey.

Hey Dreggar, I didn't mention during the Ogre Mage fight because I didn't realize it until the tail end.

You cast blur on me. Unfortunately, you're an Investigator, meaning all of your spells are Alchemical Extracts, which without the Infusion Discovery, you can't use on other players. So just an FYI - unfortunately you're the only target of your extracts.

Here's the one that really hurts to mention though (and I apologize, but I tell this one to local investigators all the time).

You can't use wands. Specifically...

Investigators and Spell Trigger: Investigators’ alchemy class feature is missing a sentence that appears in the alchemist allowing him to use spell trigger items. Does that mean the investigator can’t use spell trigger items?

Investigators cannot use spell trigger items. The omitted sentence was intentional.

It looks like you didn't take any ranks in UMD, so with that CHA of 5, you're looking at a -3 to activate your wands. Unfortunately the fact that Paizo deliberately omitted that is often overlooked. Sorry...

Well.. I missed that too. Thank you very much, Davorin for pointing that out!

Talking about apologizes, my kids had been sick and I didn't have spare tiome.

No worries! I am glad to see you back! I hope the kids are feeling better!

Davorin, I did know that about the extracts, slipped my mind at the time, with the Ogre Magi in our face. For what it's worth, I've been having Seraphta use my CLW wounds wand on me when needed (just got sloppy for the last mention and made it seem like a I did it to myself). But thanks for keeping on top of everything.

No real issue. This particular topic is hot in my region. I told a number of budding Investigators just this in the last few weeks.

I wish they had just written it in the affirmative, that you can't use spell trigger items rather than bury it as an omission.

-Posted with Wayfinder

Plus it is strange that they allow it for alchemists, since the class is (half) based on it.

This next act is not watching an opera, it is acting in the opera!!! You will each read through the descriptions below and choose a character to play. No two people may choose the same character, so I am giving you extra time to decide who is going to do what. Please do not reference this in the gameplay until notified to do so.. right now, this is OOC.

Costumes to choose from: you must choose a character to play, but the stated gender roles in no way impede what you are allowed to choose (male character may play a female but you must act accordingly!). Be warned though; some characters are not allowed to use magic. Choose carefully but quickly!

There are two leading male roles for the performance, the General and the Monkey King. The General wears a long beard and fights with a wooden sword (1d8 nonlethal) and armor (treat as splint mail). The Monkey King wears an elaborate monkey mask. The Monkey King is portrayed as an acrobat and trickster and is permitted to cast spells.

There are two leading female roles, the Warrior Woman and the Wizened Crone. The Warrior Woman wears full armor (treat as splint mail) and peacock feathers, and fights with a dulled, bladed polearm (1d8 nonlethal). The Wizened Crone wears long robes and walks with a cane. She is permitted to cast spells.

The Jing role represents a strong and forceful male. The two choices for this performance are the Noble Warrior and the Cruel Bandit. Noble Warrior wears red face paint and full armor (treat as splint mail), and wields a large club (1d10 nonlethal). The Cruel Bandit wears blue face paint and wields a long wooden knife (1d4 nonlethal), specially balanced to allow a capable individual to make nonlethal sneak attacks with it.

The clown (Chou) is a humorous character, and is allowed to speak with the audience in order to make jokes at their opponents’ expense. Chou are also permitted to cast spells. Male Chou identify their characters by painting wide white circles around their eyes. Female Chou paint their faces red with black circles about the eyes. Clown costumes do not include weapons; however, Chou can carry and wield a broom or stick (treat as an improvised weapon dealing 1d6 nonlethal damage), claiming it to be whatever weapon they desire for the sake of performance and comedic value.

Well that's unfortunate - we have absolutely nobody in our party proficient in heavy armor. That's completely and utterly incompatible with three of the six main characters.

So half of us are going to be clowns, or taking massive non-proficient armor penalties to-hit.

Here's what I read:

- General: Heavy Armor, Longsword
- Monkey King: No armor, Spellcasting
- Warrior Woman: Heavy Armor, Polearm (2-handed?)
- Wizened Crone - No armor, Spellcasting, Cane
- Noble Warrior - Heavy Armor, Large Club
- Cruel Bandit - No armor, Knife, Sneak Attack
- Chou - No armor, Improvised Weapons, Spellcasting

I will leave the Monkey King and Wizened Crone to our cleric or other spellcasters.

So...as much as this sucks, I guess I'll be the Noble Warrior (Heavy Armor, Large Club).

I could be the Monkey King, the Cruel Bandit, or the Chou, probably with preference toward the Chou or the Cruel Bandit so I have a weapon to channel my spells through.

I'm going to be bad with whatever role I choose; weapon finesse only with the rapier and can't wear heavy armors easily. I can be acrobatic as a monkey king, but have no spells so Cruel bandit better for me if nobody has sneak attack and a caster wants that role. But choose as you want, and I'll do as best as I can in whichever role i have, as a former actor I should do great in whatever role. Or not, but I'm going to enjoy it

Daryus, the Cruel Bandit can't cast spells, so better pick the Chou

As mentioned, any of these will be tough, but Dreggar will volunteer to be the General because: beard.

I need to be able to cast spells more than battle, I'd imagine.

Guess I could be the Wizened Crone.

Some of you will see this in the other thread I'm in.

I am doing some significant PFS GMing at Con of the North this weekend and will be hit-or-miss starting tomorrow sometime in the AM. I should be back around by Monday.

Hopefully nothing serious happens.

Oh - and my action right before entering a combat situation is to martial flexibility heavy armor proficiency (in case it comes up).

Davorin: Noble Warrior
Daryus: ?? | There will be no lethal damage allowed. Make sure to keep this in mind when making your choice!
Jhon: Cruel Bandit
Dreggar: The General
Sarephta: The crone
Peribras: ??

Remaining choices: Monkey King, Warrior Woman, Chou
Less than 24 hours before the choice is made for you!!

Davorin: Be safe and have fun! Thank you very much for the guidance. This is very helpful!!

The entire paragraph about the Chou is written in the plural, so can we have multiple Chou for those that don't want armor?

Since the only armed characters left are the Chou, and they can cast (even for defensive spells), I'd stick with that Daryus.

I'f Peribras doesn't want it I'll prefer to be the Monkey King, being acrobatic fits well with my skills and having the option to spend panache.

Jhon can have the monkey king. Peribras will go for Chou, unless we can't have multiple; then Warrior Woman is fine

-Posted with Wayfinder

I apologize for any confusion my cut and paste may have caused. There is only one of each type of costume for each team, hence the plurals. I thought I had worked all those out. You will understand what I mean shortly. So.. We have:

Davorin: Noble Warrior
Daryus: Cruel Bandit
Jhon: Monkey King
Dreggar: The General
Sarephta: The crone
Peribras: Chou

If anyone has any questions about your chosen roll, now would be the time to ask them. I bought us some time by having yall choose this early so that we can get the kinks worked out.

Davorin just about had the right of it with his summation above. You will not use your own weapons or armor. You will use the weapons and armor provided within the description of your chosen role.
Bad news, is that I will need you to all update your trackers with information for the costumes. (AC, etc) Good news is that the weapons you will be using are dulled/meant to deal nonlethal damage. This means that although you may be taking armor penalties, you will not be taking extra attack penalties for the weapons.. just straight rolls based upon your weapon and applicable modifiers.

MAGIC USERS: Be very cognizant of your spells. There will BE NO LETHAL DAMAGE ALLOWED. If you need to readjust your spells for the day based upon this, you may.

First off, sorry, I had some real life things come up the last couple of days that have made my posting here and elsewhere scarce.

Let me make sure I'm correct here, the Cruel Bandit can't cast spells?

If that is the case, and the Chou is taken, I'd prefer the Wizened Crone I guess. If I'm stuck as the bandit, so be it.

If I can use spells, I'll prepare the following:

1st- color spray (x4), shield
2nd- blur, invisibility, mirror image

Peribras, are you willing to trade the Chou to Daryus?

Sure.

-Posted with Wayfinder

Natural atacks doesn't count as light weapons right? only unarmed attacks.

I'm interested due my menacing swordplay free intimidation attempt

Jhon: Personally, I do not see a correlation between natural and unarmed attacks and light weapons, so I am going to have to rule against this pending discussion. These are two completely different categories on every list and page I have found. Should anyone else here have any input, please chime in!

I am, however, more concerned about the bite attack doing nonlethal damage. I cannot find anywhere on the message boards or PRD that says it is not allowed, but neither can I find anywhere where it is allowed. You were told by both Shifty (in his opening to this act) and I (5 posts above this one, in the reminder to magic users) not to draw blood. I could have been clearer and reiterated that for everyone, but honestly I had not even thought of the Kitsunes bite attack and thought the fighters were covered with the provided weapons and the reminder to magic users.
A bite seems, to me at least, inherently against this stipulation. I will allow it to go ahead this round, simply because I can not find a ruling against it, but I would greatly prefer if you abstained from bites for the duration of the opera scene, unless we can get a solid ruling from a rule book or higher level (here's looking at the former VC and the 4/5 star GMs in the room, should they feel like chiming in).

-Regarding natural attacks and light weapons: I asked because two of my deeds (menacing swardplay and precise strike) works with "a light or one-handed piercing melee weapon2 but precise strike adds "(though not a natural weapon)". I also searched and see no correlation, and decided is better to not roll for it and ask.

-Bite making non-lethal: My bad. I tought it was attacks, but despite what advices I read, the rule states clearly "weapon attacks", so no damage for the Cruel Bandit. I would move to the same place even if that's the case, and with him rolling two nat 20s it really doesn't matter what other action I could have done).

I have just reread your post and see you said no lethal damage allowed. In capital letters. As an excuse I can only said that I didn't pay much attention about magic user rules not being one. I know, is not a very good excuse

I would allow it based on parsing the following two entries...

Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks ...

Under Nonlethal Damage
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage: You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll.

Dogs play with each other all the time and hold back on bites. But whether that would be considered non-lethal damage is a stretch.

I agree, this is one of those situations where logic and the rules collide a bit.

But in the end, if a wooden dagger can deal non-lethal as a piercing weapon, teeth may be the same.

Dreggar, if I recall correctly though Natural Attacks != Unarmed Attack.

Unarmed attacks are explicitly weapon attacks, natural attacks are not. This is why you can cast "bless weapon" on an unarmed strike, but not a claw attack.

So the -4 shouldn't work.

First off, I wish there was perfect clarity. But there isn't. It comes down to if you are convinced that natural attacks (using natural weapons by definition) = melee weapons. I believe they are.

Here are some other supporting opinions:

Per James Jacobs (speaking about the crane wing feat): "It works against all melee weapon attacks, including natural weapons and unarmed strikes, but not against melee spell attacks or similar supernatural attacks."

Per Sean K Reynolds (agreeing that natural weapons could be deflected by the crane wing feat): If it meant "manufactured weapon," it would say "manufactured weapon" rather than "melee weapon."

And spells like Magic Weapon and Align Weapon specifically say that they do not work on natural attacks. Bless Weapon strangely does not, and there's many who think it ought to work, because it just says "weapon touched".

The question was not if natural weapons meant melee weapons.. I agree.. they are. The question revolved around whether natural attacks counted as "light" weapons, which is a descriptor for manufactured weapons and a prerequisite for some of Jhons abilities.

-Posted with Wayfinder

If SKR is the best we have, then we listen to SKR (That's me agreeing with you by the way). JJ has been confirmed as not a legitimate rules source (and he'll say so himself).

The worst part is that the very existence of Feral Combat Training would imply that they are not at a minimum unarmed strikes.

This is not the first such discussion, nor will it be the last. I'm fine with whatever our GM decides.

The question revolved around whether natural attacks counted as "light" weapons, which is a descriptor for manufactured weapons and a prerequisite for some of Jhons abilities.

THAT answer is easy (link to appropriate source)!

"Natural attacks are light weapons (though they are never expressly defined as such in the rules)."

Agreed its the GMs call. BTW, I want that Pathfinder Design Team account to sweep through all the forums like a mighty hammer, laying waste to all the back and forth.

Dreggar: Would that not be a glorious and wonderful sight?!?!?!

All: I really appreciate your help with this! Your input is always welcome and appreciated, and I learn more every game I GM because of discussions like this!

Jhon: Seeing as how we have now linked Natural attacks to light weapons that are applicable to your abilities, I will go ahead and say that your bite attack is allowed with all of the frills you want to add. If natural weapons are NOT in a category all their own, then as far as I am concerned, ALL the rules apply to include Non lethal. AS LONG AS YOU TAKE THE -4 FOR NON LETHAL and make sure that you are explicit in this, please!!!

All: I know that I am partly to blame for this because of my posting schedule, but if I can post at least every 24 hours despite having a wife with serious medical problems, a 9 year old son clamoring for attention, and 2 full time jobs; I do not think it unreasonable to expect a post a day during a special event. Especially an event where you signed up knowing full well it was going to be fast paced and under a time crunch. Those that are not posting on a frequent basis are leaving the majority of the work (and damage) to those that do check in and keep the game going. Please, Please, Please, Please! Help me to help you out here so that we can finish strong. This is especially important considering that the final act is crashing towards us like a freight train down a dark tunnel. That final act is going to be brutal and will require all of you to work together to survive.

If there is anything at all that I can do to help you, please just say so. If there are any accommodations that need to be made, I am open for discussion.. but I have to know about them to discuss them. Checking in once or twice a week is neither notifying me of a problem, nor is it conducive to team survival. Perhaps I allowed this to get away from me for too long and should have said something earlier, but I really HATE being THAT guy. That is on me, and something that I need to work to improve on. Lets improve on things together and keep this game on track.

From now on, in the opera, all my bites will be non-lethal and I'll be explicit.

To my thoughts in character - no really, how does this sorcerer cast slow!?

Assuming this is a Season 2 balanced out to CR 7-8, we're only looking at maybe level 4-5 opponents. Slow is a level 3 spell, and on a sorcerer that would be CL 6!

It is what it is, but wowza.

I agree that it is pretty overpowered, but it is on her spell list. She is a Caster lvl 4, and has Slow listed as a Lvl 2 spell.

Female half-elf sorcerer 4
CN Medium humanoid (elf, human)
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 4th; concentration +8)
2nd (4/day)—slow (DC 16)

I see what you mean about the spell not being right though.. but since its in her list, I had assumed this was on purpose???

She does, however,have a charisma of 18 though. I am not really all that familiar with the spellcasting classes. Is that enough to give her the spell>?

That sounds like a certain Tim Hitchcock not knowing the rules (which is not uncommon).