Well I don't know how much I can disclose without ruining what is going to happen, but even though you will be going through the same two weeks chronologically you will not be doing anything near what you were like before.
Aside from a delivery and departure, I imagine there is a strong support with time-issues for the party to NOT be in Grastle Hollow thereafter. OoC, that is already apparent :)
DM, I have a sneaking suspicious the sentiment is common as Toramin mentioned about aversion to repeating the two weeks fully. Would a narrated segue of us scrying Sveng, explaining the import of the situation and his use in it, getting the item to him, and leaving town be permissible? I can't see he'd have much of an issue with it as he actually did do it as we've experienced.
Malose is the wild card. In which case, I suppose your answer would still be "yes", and we'd end-up in some encounter.
I'd like to hear from my peers regarding this.
I kind of expected to get chastised by the aeons.
I would prefer that the DM handle the time doppleganger stuff either as long form narrative on his part or if he feels it's necessary, then to have some targeted scenarios that have clear entries and exit points both in and out of character.
I won't lie. I'm suffering fatigue from this storyline. It hasn't gotten to the point where I've muttered "I don't care about these people," but it's gotten close. I have really enjoyed this game in the past and I want to enjoy it in the future, but Grastle Hollow has been not great for me both in terms of story pacing, interactivity, etc. I'm tired of being frustrated by our actions not panning out or seeming to be of much consequence (there seems to have been a disconnect between player engagement and effect -- while I expect that was a feature and not a bug -- it's not a feature I want experience again) and then waiting in limbo because of weird pacing.
I can't say what's to be expected of the upcoming time without spoiling it.
Yes, it's been a learning experience. You guys said you wanted a more open-ended mission, which I gave to you, but it ended up being something you liked even less. I still don't understand how you don't see the effects of your actions, but I suppose I could take a more Kingmaker-style approach and have quantifiable numbers that happen in response to your actions instead of tracking them behind the screen.
The mines ==> never panned out
rousing the populace through writing ==> well it was at least fun to write
Alziver ==> shrug?
The River King ==> That didn't go far
Trying to infiltrate the underworld ==> was like bashing our heads against walls
and that is just a few examples
Our plans don't need to be unqualified successes, but in my experience open ended things require DM feedback and engagement to feel woven into larger narrative.
It was frustrating, but at times felt like it might be gratification deferred, since you kept saying we were doing a lot. But that pay off seems unlikely to happen now since you said, "without Rilka's manipulations behind the screen. The party would still be hopelessly flailing around the city chasing their own tails."
That was my moment that the narrative cord snapped for me: the DM describing our last ten months of gaming as "tail chasing." I'm pleased that Rilka played a pivotal role, but that does suggest that there were only two scenes of any narrative important in the last ten months -- the inn fight and the series of scenes at the forge. Everything else was a narrative dead end; that's a box without much sand. My only consolation is that the last ten months included some good character work.
In your last post you say you don't understand how we don't see our effects. I don't understand how you cannot understand given you explicitly called our efforts hopelessly chasing our tails.
Shrug. I'm not looking to start any old arguments, but I think our views and concerns have been clear, well documented, and consistent.
As for system advice, Feral has been raving about the influence system laid out in ultimate intrigue. That might merit a glance to see if you like it.
Mines: You learned for sure what was happening. You never took advantage of the giant.
Writing: Yeah other things blew up before that panned out.
Alziver: You didn't follow up on his leads.
The River King: You didn't follow up on his leads.
Infiltration: Yes, it was designed that way. Which, if you're patient, you'll learn why.
I am keeping silent on the rest because it will spoil what is to come. This has been planned for months.
Be patient.
”Oh,” Rilka says, fingers move as if plucking a flower petal from the air. ”The museum! I bet we were the five.” She looks at the others to gauge their reactions. ”That incident was unexplainable. Very mysterious.”
But seriously, good job making that connection.
Of course there was also that little bit about how one of the five members was supposedly killed during the attempt...
Mines: You learned for sure what was happening. You never took advantage of the giant.
Writing: Yeah other things blew up before that panned out.
Alziver: You didn't follow up on his leads.
The River King: You didn't follow up on his leads.
Infiltration: Yes, it was designed that way. Which, if you're patient, you'll learn why.
To be fair, with time loops as described, this was a done deal from the outset, regardless of what we knew. Ignorance was bliss.
I'm not sure what is going on now, but it might be a good point to move the narrative forward.
I will be spending this entire week with my girlfriend to celebrate our 5 year anniversary, so my posting will be either very sparse or nonexistent.
Alright, I have a brief amount of time to post.
Since this is a once-in-a-campaign kind of event, I need everybody to either post what else they want to talk to Nareth about, or simply give me a "ready to move on" post. I'm going to assume by Toramin's most recent post that he and Ianna are both ready to move forward. I may have small windows to post the next few days, but posting should resume as normal on Monday.
Bjorkus is ready to move on. He barely understands what just happens. He'll be sticking by the others until something presents itself that requires his attention/skills.
Pending contention from Rilka, let us move forward.
Sorry for the delay. I’m ready to move on as well.
Alright, I'll be home tomorrow and should be able to get a big moving-forward post then. Let's try to get back to our once a day post expectancy.
I can post tomorrow and Wenesday, but Thursday and Friday depend on my phone reception aboard the train. I will be able to post on Saturday after I get back to basics.
Sounds good, thanks for letting us know!
So where is the rest of the party? Our most active members haven't posted in days with no warning.
My work is kicking my ass. I've been a terrible poster all around.
I'm around. I was waiting for Dalton and Rilka to get the action moving.
Just entering Eastern Washington now. My signal will cut-out sometime tonight and probably won't be back reliably until early Friday.
Assume Dalton follows, supports, and eats - though perhpas not in that order. He will use teleport to move the party to an consensus locatoon and wull reprepare to do so twice in a day if that's what they want.
I want to reiterate the 1/day posting requirement, even if it's just a simple "My character nods and waits for the others".
I’ll do my best. I should be able to post multiple times this weekend.
Feel free to chime-in with the conversation to Ninnec. I have a few bits to say, so there will be time for back-and-forth.
I will be unable to check the boards much today until possibly late at night. Go ahead and plan how to find Sveng.
I will be unable to check the boards much today until possibly late at night. Go ahead and plan how to find Sveng.
If Rilka hasn't made a post of how the halfling would think to gather his attention by that point, Dalton will take the hour to scry on Sveng as per the OoC. In the event the spell simply fails, he will try a second time. If he encounters a blockage, he will call-out to Sveng to specify a rendezvous location.
Remember you all have a portion of a day until we return.
I'm just hoping this detail is enough for things to go off without a hitch. I can't foresee things going smoother with us present.
Barring something Ninnec's absence in the morning or an objection from Rilka, we will be returning to Akropash.
Both in and out of game I do not want to replay the same two weeks. They were painful enough the first time.
In mind, please. Let's progress the game.
I want to reiterate the 1/day posting requirement, even if it's just a simple "My character nods and waits for the others".
Are you okay, Omen?
Yup, just waiting on you guys to decide how you're going to handle the meeting. There still appears to be disagreement. And since I couldn't enforce the 1/day posting for even a few days I guess I'll just toss that out the window.
I think we’ve agreed to stay well away from Ninnec and Sveng’s rendezvous; well Dalton and Ianna convinced Rilka so that’s three votes for staying away. I’m sure Toramin and Bjorkus agree too.
Yup, just waiting on you guys to decide how you're going to handle the meeting. There still appears to be disagreement. And since I couldn't enforce the 1/day posting for even a few days I guess I'll just toss that out the window.
I suppose there might be disagreement now, though I have to vent on this situation.
A week and a half ago, you made a point to remind people of posting frequency. This is not the first time the reminder has been made. To your credit, you did highlight that shortcoming in your own posting. However, it's not you're unable to enforce the expectation, but you fail to meet it yourself. By the same token, "just waiting on you" is a veneer for further delay of the narrative that just isn't working.
Most of the party has expressed zero desire to replay the previous in-game two weeks in the first place. I understand OoC the time loop means we must do something IC for two weeks, but to play that out in this city with parameters our characters - Dalton included - barely understand at this pace isn't happening. Look at the posting lately. The party is physically split and mentally incapable of dealing with the task you're "waiting on" us to resolve.
"Yes it would be great to have you nearby, but he said come alone..." Is your one gameplay post in the past 5 days, coming 2 hours after I politely requested we move forward in the OoC thread. Ninnec's neurotic ellipsis does not move the narrative forward. Rather, it ping-pongs the errand's intermission time up. It's not about character development because something more substantial than one line for most of a week would have been written in the gameplay thread.
After the aforementioned OoC thread post, the only meaningful "disagreement" one could construe was if Ninnec was getting an escort part of the way or not. As a player, it didn't make much of a difference to me. Dalton was strongly opposed for reasons he mentioned, but I didn't want to delay the game by causing a big scene. To the point, to those of us who wanted to move forward with the narrative, that was probably a trivial detail. If you felt it was non-trivial, it would've been appropriate to hear a clarifying nudge from you in a line of OoC instead of just expressed nerves from Ninnec; after all, it had been previously made clear one of the participants in that conversation simply wanted to press on.
Do not take this post as me being mad. I'm not. This post is about a gap in communication, so I am making the language blunt to avoid a return of the same issue by chance in its diagnosis.
I'm not entirely clear on what, if anything, that we need to do. We were warned to avoid interacting with our past selves (which makes sense). Do we need to accomplish something specific in the time we're repeating? If not, can we hand-wave it and move on?
Maybe a quick recap would help.
I've been super busy out of game this month (though that should be less now.) I've also been confused about what we should be doing as well. Sorry for my part in the delays.
I also cosign everything that Dalton and Bjorkus are saying. Whatever is going on right now as a dynamic isn't working. Perhaps together we could come up with some goals for how to complete this arc as Players and Narrator. I really don't have the firmest grasp on the narrative thread anymore. But, Dalton was right to encourage me to start posting more regularly.
After several pushes to get everybody posting again and it failing, I basically thought "Well screw it, they'll post whenever they get around to it".
There's clearly a problem here as nobody is enjoying the story I'm creating any longer. It's apparently not fun anymore, just tedious and frustrating. Perhaps it's time to put this campaign to rest.
I think it would be sad if this game went out with a whimper. While this arc has been frustrating, I don't think that the game won't be fun again in the future.
Do you want to work with us to get it back on track? Is saving the campaign something in which you are interested?
I don't believe this posting frequency reflects on your ability to create an enjoyable story, Omen. Presently, the story provides reasons IC (blipping out of existence) and OoC (the city's loose ends Toramin mentioned earlier) for not having much interaction at this time.
The problem is that I don't see the game as off track. In fact this was the beginning of the end, as far as plot goes. From here on out there was going to be a series of adventures with time shenanigans and it was all going to lead up to a climactic battle with Malose where Dalton was jumping through the fourth dimension to keep him from preventing your births and locking him in one timestream so the rest of the party could actually fight and destroy him.
This was the story arc I have been most excited about and it was going to set the tone for the rest of the campaign. Clearly that tone is not something you enjoy.
I don't see the game as off track.
Neither, I believe, do we.
The point is not that our characters travelled back in time. Rather, it is roleplaying the necessities of the rewind. When characters are under the impression the slightest glimpse of their other selves will result in instant obliteration, I'm sure you can understand their hesitation in things that would raise that chance. In Dalton's mind - and I'm sure some others - anything in this town is off limits for 14 days. The only trump card in the mix is the delivery of the hourglass, which carries the assurances of the aforementioned threat and then some. Hence the use of teleportation and Ninnec.
That situation is a very effective tool for adhesion to a storyline. Nobody is complaining about that. In fact, I like Dalton not knowing enough about the primal magic to truly control it. That is a core idea behind the character, the apprentice who is always on a journey to learn, never quite becoming the master.
Instead, let me approach what I believe the collective critique is from another angle. You like subterfuge. Intrigue. Schemes. The Aestherics, for all the different agents of the council, really like the indirect approach - even for indirect approaches. Rilka, the character, fits that mold. The other three of us don't. We serve to the best of our ability, but sometimes, we're unable to go through the intended "plan" and instead need to do something our way.
That departure from the plan almost certainly means something direct. Overt. In this particular case, Dalton is simply getting the hourglass to Sveng in the most direct manner possible with the least risk. Ninnec is for the last part, and the unwillingness to form another elaborate plan is to the former part's credit.
While there are certainly OoC reasons aired by Toramin previously for some of the party not wanting to fully replay the two weeks here (read: no problem with it elsewhere which would be the case the following morning barring some catastrophe), keep in mind all the dead ends we've had in this place (and before). Alzivir. The museum. Our characters are learning by their experiences - not just their innate preference - stealthy plans don't have that great of a success rate for them.
With stakes like these, that is why I was pushing to send the relic off without delay or complication. I did not see the game as off-track, but I wasn't planning to have the car going 15 mph down what should be - especially for something of this nature - a main road.
Perhaps I've no idea what the others think. It would be good for you guys to chime-in.
Chiming in! This campaign is one of the most successful and fun campaigns (on multiple levels) that I have played in, including other forums. This is a very unique game. Our PCs, your world and plots, and the OoC discussions -- it’s more than I expected to find. Most of the online games I join falter within a few months. This has been a huge success. I don’t want the campaign to end here.
The game isn’t off track. I think everyone has different expectations about what the two-week time loop will involve, how much hand-waving will be done, etc. For example the art piece theft. The players and the PCs know the PCs take it. How detailed do you want us to get in the planning and execution of the heist? I honestly think that’d be a place where the group as a whole would want to see it hand waved. We know the PCs get it, so the narrative tension is minimal for the final result, (but not the “journey” so to speak).
I agree with Dalton about the subterfuge, intrigue, and schemes, concerning the party. Even in Akropash, the party attacked Targ at a very surprising time. Rilka thought there was still scheming to be done.
In closing, I wish I had more time at the moment to explain how much value I get in this game with all of you. I think if we communicate our expectations clearly and as mature adults, I’m confidant we can get through this.
I think that Rilka and Dalton very eloquently express my feelings about the matter. When I said "back on track" I meant in terms of posting and enthusiasm.
I appreciate and value so many things about this game. Few discussion threads are ever as robust as ours. I also feel that few games have as rich of roleplaying or character development. I derive great pleasure from interacting with each of you. I have also learned so much about the game from you guys; I remember being much more confused back in the day.
To your credit, Omen, you have a strong aesthetic vision for your world. It truly helps bring the world alive. I do not want you to compromise this vision.
Where I think compromise would be helpful is in player engagement. None of us want you to tell our characters what to do. None of us want our characters to always succeed on the first try. What I think many, if not all of us, would like is more engagement when we do fail. Instead of a dead end, perhaps giving us more to react to, and help us in game understand why we failed and why our failures aren't meaningless. It could help make the game even more immersive.
Perhaps something that has increased our recent disconnect is that people are not feeling like they and their contributions are valued. We can all work on that.
I'm going to take a bit of time off of this game to think about this. Shouldn't be more than a few days, a week at most. I'll keep you updated.
Sounds good to me. Thank you for letting us know.
While Omen is on his vision quest, I ran across something cute.
I have decided to put this game on a temporary hiatus. I've been too busy in my personal life recently to devote enough attention to such a demanding game, and because of that the quality of play has suffered. I am also starting an internship at the end of the month so my life will be in even more chaos.
Let me be clear: I am not giving up on this game, and I don't intend to.
I want to take a break to let things in my life settle down and give myself more time to plan the next steps of the campaign. By the end of the month I should have things start settling down and we'll see how things go from there. In the meantime I will keep the game open and active, so feel free to use the discussion thread to your heart's content.
Alright, my job has started. I have a pretty normal 9-5 job (eastern time) on Monday-Friday, so my posting will be in the evenings and weekends (although I usually play with my local group on Sundays).
I've had a few weeks to think about this campaign and what to do about. It was therapeutic to take a break for a while, and it gave me time to reflect.
But now let's kick this game back into gear.
I would prefer that the DM handle the time doppleganger stuff either as long form narrative on his part or if he feels it's necessary, then to have some targeted scenarios that have clear entries and exit points both in and out of character.
I think this is a big point for me to address. Clearly the heavy sandbox theme isn't working for you guys, so I am going to make action more directed. I am still heavily against railroading, so I will not give you suggested actions on how to handle problems (unless you ask for NPC advice, at which time they would give you their insights). I think this problem has occurred because I made the conclusion that you would appreciate a much more open-choice/sandbox mission based on your actions in Akropash, but clearly that was been a failure. However, I do want to reemphasize the point that this is a subterfuge game, and as such you can make huge leaps and bounds in your mission without killing anybody or knocking down any doors.
To be fair, with time loops as described, this was a done deal from the outset, regardless of what we knew.
Yes, this is a difficult problem with time shenanigans going on. It brings the concepts of autonomy and free will into question about the fulfillment of actions based on what was already experienced. But those are things I definitely want to dive headfirst into: it's a defining characteristic of this campaign, as you're learning.
Maybe a quick recap would help.
I agree! Here are things you know that need to be done:
- Rob the museum, steal the 'painting', and leave a corpse that frames Villichi.
- Plant the rumor of the legendary assassin that will end up getting Rilka to infiltrate Villichi's ranks.
- Set up Sveng as an ally.
~~~
Sorry if I've missed anything that you guys think still needs to be addressed. If that is the case, please remind me so I can address it. Of course I welcome any other comments/questions/suggestions on this direction.
Clearly the heavy sandbox theme isn't working for you guys
This is accurate, mostly because there is a lot less sand in the box with the timeloop restrictions. So much so, in fact, you summarized what we must do in a bulleted list:
I agree! Here are things you know that need to be done:
- Rob the museum, steal the 'painting', and leave a corpse that frames Villichi.
- Plant the rumor of the legendary assassin that will end up getting Rilka to infiltrate Villichi's ranks.
- Set up Sveng as an ally.
Here is my set of suggestions.
1. We contact Tosscobble, tell him it's imperative the art appear "stolen" and not speak to ANYONE (including us, even if asked) about it by ANY means until this is over. We find some place and get him a key to it, locking the art within. I believe he has the authority to order the place evacuated temporarily, and we should have enough tools at our disposal to make the movement clandestine. His forewarning and access to the art should make him trust us on this.
2. Rumormongering is easy to do, especially when fear is already present in the populace. A few disguised gossips by Rilka & a letter or two placed to be found should set that up appropriately.
3. Dalton's proposal in game should garner Sveng's tepid support, particularly with the atmosphere altering in the town by actions #1 and #2.
Regardless if these are selected/rejected as ideas, I'd prefer we simply have the execution narrated and respond to the results. If they are all successful as planned, we essentially have some open time until our two weeks are up to go elsewhere. Otherwise (such as if Ninnec is held captive or if the art gets stolen again from us), we have a subset of issues to deal with. At least this way, we are not redoing the past two weeks; I don't think that idea was popular.
This is accurate, mostly because there is a lot less sand in the box with the timeloop restrictions. So much so, in fact, you summarized what we must do in a bulleted list:
Let me rephrase my bit about the timeloops: Those things are what you believe you need to do based on your experience in this time frame already. How you achieve it, or even if you achieve it, is entirely up to you.
As I said, the concepts of autonomy and free will will be heavily explored in this campaign.
Regardless if these are selected/rejected as ideas, I'd prefer we simply have the execution narrated and respond to the results. If they are all successful as planned, we essentially have some open time until our two weeks are up to go elsewhere. Otherwise (such as if Ninnec is held captive or if the art gets stolen again from us), we have a subset of issues to deal with. At least this way, we are not redoing the past two weeks; I don't think that idea was popular.
Unfortunately, the issues carry a significant chance of failure so I would prefer not to handwave them. However I am very open to the idea (and intend to do so) of speeding through the time between these things happening. If you decide to attempt these things, then once you guys have a plan and are ready to go I will simply speed along to when it happens.
To put it succinctly, I want to have these two weeks feel less like two weeks and more like three significant events. For example, on a long journey instead of roleplaying every day, I'm going to skip all the time between fights and other significant events. I'm not worried about where you guys sleep or what you do between missions; you are more than capable enough to avoid your other selves since you know exactly where they were at any given time.
I hope that makes sense and seems like something that would be more enjoyable than what you guys have been going through.