Gardens of the Moon (Inactive)

Game Master Aku Warashi

Ganoes Paran: "I want to be a soldier. A hero."
Whiskeyjack: "You'll grow out of it."

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Male Human Mostly Commoner 47
Aku Warashi wrote:

It seems good.

Can't wait to put you all facing a god!

Damn, I think I said too much!

The God part is a joke.

a god you say? hmmm....might have to come up with something like this for my character:

Puny god

Keep in mind that magic is going to be warren based not spell list based. So using Inquistor spell list doesn't mean alot until we figure out exactly how magic is going to work.

This is true. I was mostly trying to build this assuming it was a fairly standard Pathfinder game.

Given the nature of the warren magic, it might be a really neat way to handle it though, depending.

Alright here is my first attempt at my character concept. Not totally sure on balance yet but it's a decent start.

Rashan Shadow Warrior

Shouldn't that be a d10 HD because of the full attack progression?

You never get any ability to see in Darkness, which seems odd. Find somewhere to fit this:
Nighteye (Ex): At 3rd level, you gain darkvision 30 feet. At 9th level, you gain darkvision 60 feet. If you already possess darkvision, its range is increased by these amounts.

I'd replace Hide In Plain Sight with this:
Shadow Well (Sp): You can use the Stealth skill even while being observed and without cover or concealment, as long as you are within 10 feet of a shadow other than your own. In addition, when within an area of darkness or dim light, as a standard action you may choose to switch places with a willing ally within 60 feet, who must also be in darkness or dim light. At 13th level, you can instead switch the positions of two willing allies, each of whom must be within 60 feet of you. Unless otherwise noted, this travel is identical to dimension door. You may use the ability to switch places once per day at 9th level, plus one additional time per day at 17th level and 20th level.

In the end summary you said you kept Camouflage, but it isn't in your list anywhere. Honestly, it doesn't make sense to keep it either, since if you change it to fit theme ('shadows') you'd probably already have concealment.

- - - - -

Overall, I haven't run the numbers, but I'm a little concerned about it. You've traded a number of things that you'd never run out of (style feats and hunter's bond) and given half of the class assets for abilities that equate to being used, at most, 3 / day / level.

One way to fix that might be to swap shadow jump with abundant step and a ki pool and give him the Ki Leech ability (or all of the Hungry Ghost Monk abilities) at some point, so that he can restore his pool. I'm looking at doing that for a ninja-based shadow thief class that I'm toying with, and I think it is a neat way to handle it. You could also give some ninja-based shadow abilities (like being able to cast mirror image or turn invisible).

- - - - -

Again, I haven't run the numbers, but my gut instinct says to add some small abilities that won't influence things too much. Some suggestions:

Flexible Flanker (Ex): A Shadow Warrior may choose any square adjacent to him and treat that square as his location for determining who he is flanking, even if that square is occupied by a creature, object, or solid barrier.

Redirect Attack (Ex): Once per day, when a Shadow Warrior successfully parries a melee attack, she can redirect the attack to strike at an adjacent creature with a free action. The creature targeted must be within melee reach of the attack that hit the Shadow Warrior, and the creature that made the attack against the Shadow Warrior must make a new attack roll against the new target. (maybe increase the uses of this at various levels?)

Bend Space (Su): As a standard action, a Shadow Warrior can manipulate space around himself, causing terrible wounds to open across the a creature's flesh whenever it deals damage to the Shadow Warrior. Immediately after the creature deals damage to the Shadow Warrior in melee, it takes half that damage (round down). This damage bypasses any resistances, immunities, or damage reduction the creature possesses. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to the Shadow Warrior's Wisdom modifier. The first time a creature attacks the Shadow Warrior while this effect is active, it receives a Will save to become immune to this effect for 24 hours.

Maybe give a small amount of sneak attack? Like 5d4?

Mistake about the d10. Corrected

Added night eye.

I like the replacement of HiPS with shadow well. Will add that as well.

Shadow Jump:
The quirk with the dimensional builds is their reliance on abundant step/dimension door.

Normally you can't get those abilities till at least lvl 7 (in case of wizard, but 12 in case of abundant step), meaning that you can't finish the chain till basically end-game.

One of the key factors of the dimensional builds to its that it's an Su ability so the rapid bouncing between targets also doesn't provoke any AoO for re positioning or engaging creatures with reach. So don't want to give it too much use without a tradeoff.

However, I do agree that this makes the character rather useless after the pool runs out...


Added that can be used as a Move Action (instead of a standard action).

To boost it's combat potency: reducing the minimum increment to 5-feet , plus as we mentioned magic points early in the discussion thread, I was thinking of adding a clause that the ability could be used past its max amount at the cost of 1d6 non-lethal damage / 30 foot increment. Basically the idea we discussed early where I could push my inherent shadow magic further at the cost of my own health.

Make's the pool of movement basically limitless, just have to be extremely careful after the stored power is used up for the day.

Rain of Blows - > Name Change to Shadow Blows:
Sneak Attack: If I could get a sneak attack that would be fantastic! What about instead of letting Rain of blows add +1 to attack rolls, it adds +1d6 sneak damage? Would leave me with +5d6 Sneak damage and +5 dodge to AC at level 17.

Plus, Instead of putting a round/day limit on it, put a conditional that Shadow jump must be used for this to be active that round. So basically in combat my character would always be porting around after lvl 5ish (where I would have a base pool of 150 feet of jumping / day).

Edit: Updated the google Docs for Rashan Shadow Warrior with these new suggestions.

Figured I should add a bit about the concept: The plan isn't to making him amazing stealthy like a ninja(though he will be). The concept is for him to be more like what I would consider the Flash to be in pathfinder terms. Someone moving so rapidly that you basically can't see him. So his bonus to stealth isn't his amazing ability to hide, it's more so his amazing ability to move so quickly you don't see him. Based on the Warrens and stuff listed earlier, shadow just seems like the logical fit.

I deemed that things like Fast Stealth would work by him almost instantly being there, and then taking 6 seconds to try and find a place to hide, versus just being stealthy from the get go.


I answered this for Melasoul, but figure out you may find it interesting too:


Let me tell you something about Seguleh.

The only real way to play one, is if you abandon your mask.
Else, if someone stare at you, you'll challenge him.
Segulehs apply their rules to everyone else, not just their society.

A seguleh that changed enough to remove the mask is a interesting thing.

Maybe you were defeated by Whiskeyjack, the company commander, and decided to follow him, hopping to challenge him again, but in meantime, you learned about other costumes, other ways of living, and at some point, decided to remove your mask, even if it's only when you are outside of combat.

What happen in between times? Think of an army.

The cynical way of looking at things, of making your life about killing others, the resignation. The loyalty that you develop for the person at your side, the trust between brothers, even if that said brother would not ever being someone you would want to meet outside the army. The trust in your commanders.

The days, weeks, months of hard march, dried and food, scarce water.

Hating the wait between one battle to another, dreading a new battle, for your brothers and you may perish. Now, on top of that, consider being stationed in a siege, for three years in a roll, in the city of Pale, where it's a block of Ice, and being commanded by the empress herself to undermine it's wall.

This you are doing for three years already, and that everyone consider impossible.

More than that, consider now, that after the coup, Lassen has been driving the Bridgeburners into mostly suicidal jobs, Whiskeyjack, demoted from Commander to Sergeant.

Even then, imagine your commander keeping his loyalty to the empress, even after all rumors about she trying to kill the Bridgeburners.

By the way, this is were you'll start the game. After three eyes trying to undermine Pale walls.

@ DM Aku, Cool. Yeah, I'm thinking of going Seguleh that's given up the mask.

Has Whiskeyjack been to Segulah island? At least initially, I had been contemplating been challenged by a sibling and refused to fight. Seen as cowardly, my character was shunned and so left, giving up the mask but still seeking to better their skills, to try and find that blissful serenity in combat, and to generally make things better for people.

I could easily have met up with, and been defeated by, Whiskeyjack during that wandering period.

@Blondebandit, I think tossing 1d6 damage in place of the plus 1 might be a little much. A +1 to hit translates to roughly 5% more damage, meaning that you'd have to have an average of 70 damage per attack before you broke even. Even a 1d4 is 50 points of damage before breaking even. But it is sneak attack, and therefore not guaranteed. If it were me I'd put it to 1d4 though.

And while I do like the shadow theme, do realize the limits that puts on you. You may not be able to get around and behind enemies, especially during the day and depending on the conditions. And if you just want him to be fast, then you don't have to make him shadow themed.

Here is the Wizard Conjuration speciality ability:
Dimensional Steps (Sp): At 8th level, you can use this ability to teleport up to 30 feet per wizard level per day as a standard action. This teleportation must be used in 5-foot increments and such movement does not provoke an attack of opportunity. You can bring other willing creatures with you, but you must expend an equal amount of distance for each additional creature brought with you.

ya that's basically what I'm using. Just use the 'shadow' theme as it was really the only Warren that fit this kind of magic. Didn't actually have anything attached to shadows/light. Figured I would innately create a small pocket of the shadow warren/plane and kind of step into it as the move. The shadow theme is just to tie it into the various kinds of magic in the world.

More about Seguleh:

The Seguleh
A fierce isolationist island people off the southern coast of Genabackis

Appearance: The warriors all wear masks denoting their rank.
Samar Dev stopped listening, since she had heard Puddy’s boasts before, and held her gaze on the woman the Meckros warrior had called a Seguleh. First Empire word, that. The Anvil. Strange name for a people -- likely some remnant clan from the colonial period of Dessimbelackis’ empire. A fragment of an army, settled on some pleasant island as their reward for some great victory -- those armies were each named, and ‘The Anvil’ was but a variation on a theme common among the First Empire military.

The Agatii: among the Seguleh, their first thousand ranked warriors.

    Eldrii (The Ten)

  • 1st -
  • 2nd- Jan
  • 3rd - Mok
  • 4th - Enoc
  • 5th -
  • 6th - Palla
  • 7th - Anomander Rake
  • 8th - Lo

    (The Twenty)

  • 11th - Oru
  • 13th - Por
  • 15th - Iralt
  • 18th - Shun
  • 20th - Ira

Renegade Seguleh: Members of the Seguleh who for some reason left the order.


'Blackmasks – the First Level Initiates in the schooling of weapons'

'Seguleh who die, fail...We spare no thoughts for the failed among us.' - Mok

'Their homeland is an island south of here, and they’re said to be a private lot, disinclined to travel. But they are known of as far north as Nathilog.’ And Hood take me, aren’t they known....For the Seguleh, rank is everything. If the hierarchy’s in doubt, challenge it. They don’t waste time.' - Toc the Younger -

'...these are Seguleh! The most feared warriors on this continent...There’s supposed to be a legendary Seguleh with an unmarked mask. White porcelain. Not that anyone has ever seen him, except the Seguleh themselves, I suppose. They are a warrior caste. Ruled by the champion.' - Toc the Younger -

'‘Their mostly non-verbal. They assert dominance with posture, faint gestures, direction of stance and tilt of head.’ - Onos T'oolan -

'The demands of the self have primacy, mistress. Always, else there would be no champions. There would be no hierarchy at all. The Seguleh would be ruled by mewling martyrs blindly trampling the helpless in their lust for the common good. Or we would be ruled by despots who would hide behind an army to every challenge, creating of brute force a righteous claim to honour. We know of other lands, mistress. We know much more than you think.’ - Mok -

'Turns out the Seguleh will not fight women, unless attacked.' - Lady Envy

'Anomander Rake once crossed blades with a score of Seguleh, one after the other. He’d paid an unannounced visit to the island – knowing nothing of the inhabitants. Taking human form and fashioning a mask for himself, he elected to walk down the city’s main thoroughfare. Being naturally arrogant, he showed no deference to any who crossed his path...Two bells. That was the full duration of Rake’s visit to the island and its people. He described the ferocity of that short time, and his dismay and exhaustion which led him to withdraw into his warren if only to slow the hammering of his heart.' - Lady Envy -


Seguleh Markings

"'The medium,' Tool explained in his usual deadpan tone, 'appears to be a mixture of charcoal, saliva and human blood.' -


Seguleh Currency

'...the ridged bars of the Seguleh' -

Renegade Seguleh

Members of the Seguleh who for some reason left the ranks of the order.


'Where are your masks?' said Studious Lock.
Lazan Door flung the bone dice against the wall again, bent to study the results.
'We tossed 'em,' answered Madrun.
'Make new ones.'
'We don't want to, Studious, we really don't.'
'That goes without saying, but it changes nothing.'

Make new masks - now why should they do that? Renegade Seguleh are renegade - they can't ever go back. Supposedly, but then, what do any of us really know about the Seguleh? Make new masks, he said to them. Why?

Ok, I updated with Holy Lancer.

All ‘spear’ abilities now work with ‘spear or polearm’
* Added Faith Pool to level 2
* Moved High Jump from level 12 to level 4, and added back the Monk's portion about adding a bonus at the cost of 1 faith point.
* Added Spellstrike to level 6
* Added Mercy to levels 8, 12, 16, and 20.
* Added Enduring Faith to level 10
* Moved Warsight Part 2 from 14 to 12 (the lack of symmetry bothered me)
* Level 14 now grants Hasted Assault and Dragoon’s Ferocity
* Replaced Weapon Mastery with Whirlwind Blitz

- - - - -

I took a look at a DPR build for the inquisitor and put together a more in depth build for each at levels 5, 10, and 15.

At level 5, the Holy Lancer did roughly 75% of the DPR of the Inquisitor (19 vs 25).
At level 10, the Holy Lancer did roughly 82% of the DPR of the Inquisitor (43.5 vs 52.8).
At level 15, the Holy Lancer did roughly 77% of the DPR of the Inquisitor (137.25 vs 178.27) assuming that the Inquisitor can get Haste.

I didn't bother comparing AC, but when I did the quick and dirty comparison before the Inquisitor was ahead until just past level 12 or so, but that was more of a money limitation than anything.

- - - - -

Comparing the other features:

  • Both have the same attack bonus.
  • Both get the same spells and both use Wisdom, at least at this iteration.
  • Saving Throw wise, they both have 2 primary, but the Inquisitor gets primary fort, where the Holy Lancer gets Reflex. I'd normally call that a net win for the Inquisitor, since without Evasion the Holy Lancer is really only taking half damage from AoE's, where the Inquisitor is getting a better save versus some nasty SoD and SoS spells. Not to mention that the Inquisitor basically gets Evasion for both Will and Fort saves. That is a very nice boon for the Inquisitor
  • The Inquisitor gets 2 more skill points per level, and 8 more class skills (Bluff, Disguise, 3 Knowledges [Arcana, Nature, Planes], Stealth, Survival, Swim), while the Holy Lancer has Acrobatics and Knowledge (Nobility).
  • The Holy Lancer gets a +1 to initiative, and builds the ability to always act during a surprise round and roll twice, and then three times, for initiative. The Inquisitor gets to add his Wisdom bonus to init. Not sure which is better, but probably the Holy Lancer.
  • The Inquisitor gets a bonus of half his level to Sense Motive, Intimidate, and tracking checks. The Holy Lancer gets 1/2 his level to jump checks, always counts as having a running start, and can take 10 on Acrobatics checks, and take 20 on acrobatics few of times a day.
  • The Inquisitor gets the ability to detect any alignment at will.
  • The Inquisitor gets several teamwork feats and the ability to ignore other the need for their allies to take them. They can also change out one of them multiple times a day.
  • The Inquisitor gets the ability to ignore most types of damage reduction, and on a crit will disable regeneration.
  • The Inquisitor can turn off their DPR for a number of other bonuses, including bonuses to saving throws, healing, DR, and concentration checks and caster levels checks vs SR.
  • The Holy Lancer gets increased movement speed, to a total of +20' at level 15. The Holy Lancer can move as an immediate action a couple of times a day. And Armor training allows them to move full speed in heavier armors.
  • The Holy Lancer can heal wounds as a Paladin's Lay On Hands, but Mercies are obtained later and less often, and doing so draws from the same limited pool as their combat abilities. Though the Inquisitor can heal themselves with their Judgements.
  • The Holy Lancer receives some style feats with spears/polearms that allow them to charge over difficult terrain, charge through allies, gain a small saving throw bonus, and add 2x their strength mod on weapon damage.

- - - - -

Overall, it seems fairly on track, though I am tempted to reduce that amount of healing that virtual 'lay on hands' does to either d4's or 1d6 every 3 levels instead of every 2, but I keep tottering since it comes from the same pool of points that I use to enhance my attacks. Besides, I really like the concept of having the mercies, just for the RP aspects.


Only quirk I would says is remember that healing is getting wildly altered. So healing is a point/minute type thing now, so any in combat healing is basically moot pointed. So LoH/judgement healing is null in combat.

True, but again, I'm trying to balance this as a regular class, then we can rip it apart for the new magic system.

Also, I'm doing some DPR builds of your Shadow Warrior class and I noticed something odd. At level 5 you get Shadow Blows, which gives haste. But you can't actually use the extra attack from it until level 6, when you get Dimensional Dervish, since you have to spend a move activating Shadow Jump.

Maybe you should swap the two?

Male Human Mostly Commoner 47

OK. I have finally finished reading all the posts in the discussion thread. Wow! This is gonna be fun! On a personal note, the only gaming systems I have played D&D 3.0 & 3.5 and Pathfinder, so I am not familiar with other systems.
As for my character, there has been a concept that I have been kicking around for a while and I think this would be the perfect campaign for it (if it fits with everyone else’s characters). I have read most of the R.A. Salvatore Drizzt books and I have always been fascinated with the battleragers . Basically a barbarian, but instead of the light armor, fast movement, etc., I picture a guy with the temperament of a barbarian i.e. rage, but heavily armored. I can see him in heavy, spiked armor and instead of carrying a weapon, his armor is his weapon. He will grapple the enemy using the spikes on his armor for damage. I haven’t started stating him up yet, but I wanted to run it by you all to get your thoughts.

Base Class: Barbarian
Switch out Fast Movement for heavy armor proficiency
Switch out Uncanny Dodge for the Magic Weapon spell
Switch out Improved Uncanny Dodge for the Greater Magic Weapon spell

I remember making a Battlerager class for 3.0. Then they actually made a prestige class for it in the Faerun books.

Have you checked out the Armored Hulk Barbarian Archetype?


Ok, I just did some quick and dirty DPR checks. And wow, you're underpowered.

At level 5, even with sneak attack, you you're around 70% of a Ranger.
At level 10, you manage to jump up, but only because I assumed the Ranger wouldn't also be able to get Haste.
- With Sneak Attack: 115% of Ranger
- Without Sneak Attack: 82% of Ranger
At level 15 you lose the race completely
- With Sneak Attack: 77.5% of Ranger
- Without Sneak Attack: 61% of Ranger

Assumptions for those numbers:

  • You both have the exact same equipment.
  • At levels 10 and 15, the Shadow Warrior is always flanking, every attack.
  • The Ranger does not have access to haste until level 15.
  • The Ranger is not using quarry.
  • It is the Ranger's favored enemy.

Looking at the numbers, your problem is your to hit bonus. You are consistently behind the Ranger by at least 4 points.

A +2 to hit at level 5 puts you just on target to equal the Ranger when you get sneak attack.
A +4 at level 10 again puts you right on track to equal a hasted Ranger.
A +6 at level 15 puts you a little above the hasted Ranger, unless he is using Quarry, in which case you are right on target.

In all of these, if you are not getting sneak attack, you drop down to about 65-70% of Ranger DPR.

Ya I knew to hit was going to be an issue which is why originally Shadow blow had a +1 to hit instead of Sneak Attack Damage. How would it effect the DPR happen if instead of sneak attack, Shadow blows offered the FE bonuses (i.e. +2 to hit, +2 to dmg) less damage but more effective at hitting? so Max is +10 to hit, with +10 dmg at lvl 17. Does that push me too far in the other direction?

The concern I have with matching the DPR of a ranger though is my insane amount of mobility. I probably shouldn't straight up match the damage of a ranger. Mobility has to count for something.

If Briccone is going to be making a Pwent, then damage is going to be intense, and also mostly melee... I may alter the shadow warrior to shift a bit from being basically exclusively melee. to more of a switch hitter. Skirting in and out of melee and range. Actually I really like that idea...

If you change it so that the first level of Shadow Blows gives +2 to hit and Damage and each increase ups it by 1, and swap the sneak attack for d4's, you come out pretty perfect.

Level 5
With Sneak Attack: 88%
Without Sneak Attack: 75%
Level 10
With Sneak Attack: 92%
Without Sneak Attack: 74%
Level 15
With Sneak Attack: 103%
Without Sneak Attack: 81%

- - - - -

As far as your mobility goes, you are trading it for having less armor. Your AC is worse than the Ranger unless you are using your dimensional leap, which is a limited use ability.

And yes, you have evasion, the parry stuff, and opportunist. But the Ranger also has Evasion, an animal companion, Quarry, and Favored Terrains.

Also, his abilities don't go away in daylight, and work with ranged weapons.

I had no intent of limiting my abilities based on daylight. More like how the shadowplane and netherese worked in forgotten realms. I have innate control of shadows, including making them appear where they shouldn't exist. so my shadow jump could be used in full daylight. Altered the wording to show that. Only thing that would be conditional on shadows would be my stealth HiPS ability.

That's why I asked what the balance would be to remove sneak attack completely and still be fairly balanced. The idea is too allow me to be the same relative damage in melee or at range. Potentially Reduce shadow blows to only have 4 iterations and max at +8/+8? That would put it inline with bonuses from FE.

I have to run, but just to answer quickly.

Only making it give +2 / +2 Doesn't push much damage early on but it is kind of close. It still needs a tweak somewhere.

Level 5: 75%
Level 10: 83%
Level 15: 90%

Call me dumb, but I got lost in all those calculus and information presented by Melasoul.

Usually when testing something, I would just put one against another, several times and see who wins and whys.

Never thought about calculating DPR and such.

It's a habit I didn't pick up until doing custom class builds in 3.0, and if you're not used to doing it, it can take a bit to wrap your head around. Before that I used to create test characters and fight them out. It's not a bad way to do it, but it takes forever and rarely takes into account critical hits, and might be a little too luck based. A handful of great rolls by a rogue, and bad rolls by a fighter, might make the rogue look comparable or better, but then the rogue player will be mighty disappointed when they get in game and can't hit anything and keep getting dropped in a single round.

And the math is fairly easy to spreadsheet. And while not always true, a handful of assumptions will usually net you something close to an optimal build value. Plus the DPR olympics posts are full of pre-built characters at various levels.

I'm sure my test characters aren't quite as 'optimal' as they could be, but then again, my real character won't be either. But it is still a decent measure of the offensive effectiveness.

Like I've said before, system building is a hobby of mine, and I've examined and looked at quite a few game systems.

- - - - -

To summarize:

In our cases so far, everyone has made something that compares well to something else. In the case of the Holy Lancer, I built it to serve the same role as the Inquisitor. In the case of the Shadow Warrior, it seems to have been built to be similar to the Ranger.

So in both of these cases, I did a quick build of a character in both classes as levels 5, 10, and 15. I calculated their DPR against the same AC, and then just looked at the difference. I just tell everyone the percentages instead of the actual damage because I thought it might be easier to understand.

Again, this is all done in spreadsheets where I can just fiddle with the numbers and see how things change.

Male Human Mostly Commoner 47
Melasoul wrote:

I remember making a Battlerager class for 3.0. Then they actually made a prestige class for it in the Faerun books.

Have you checked out the Armored Hulk Barbarian Archetype?

That is almost exactly what I am looking for. Now to just add some tweaks to it! Thanks Melasoul!

By the way, starting this Sunday 9/21 to Sunday 09/28, I will be on a cruise to Bermuda with my wife as we celebrate our 10th wedding anniversary on 9/25. Needless to say, I won’t have any internet connection (the cruise ship charges too much and it’s nice to unplug for a while), so I might have to do this when I get back. I haven’t packed yet and my wife is starting to give me the ‘evil eye’!

Glad that helped! Also, it might be worth it to check out the Shield Master feat, and see if you can adapt that feat chain to work with armor and armor spikes instead of shield bashes.

So, I forgot about it because it's a new book, but with the way the shadow warrior is coming up to be I think I may look at redesigning the class to follow a slayer vs. a ranger. Just matches far better as it already has quite a few of the options we were discussing built into the class, and doesn't have alot of the akward things that ranger deal with (looking at you hunter's bond). I just totally forgot the slayer class existed until yesterday.

So with Briccone potentially being a battlerager, Melasoul a holy lancer, and me potentially being a shadow warrior... How important do we think it will be to have a balanced party? by that I mean we are extremely light on warren users...

and have fun Briccone! enjoy the vacation. I'm sure melasoul and myself will be more then able to occupy the time theorycrafting.

I don't know anything about the new classes, and I don't have the book. So unless they've been added to the PRD (or d20pfsrd), I can't really do the calculations for you. : /

I've gotten the impression that this is meant to be a melee heavy campaign. I mean, it seems like 'primary magic users' are fairly unique, especially amongst the various armies.

That said, we do have me as a middle of the way caster, and you (if you don't change it) is a bottom tier support caster.

(The below comments are made without referencing the warren system)

Besides, with healing being so rare/time consuming, spells are going to need to be toned down anyway. After all, at level 10 a wizard, that really wanted to, could sling off 10+ fireballs a day, and considering it would take over a half hour to heal each one, that is rather deadly.

Or even scorching ray, which at level 11 does 12d6 damage on a touch attack with no save. And it's a second level spell so a wizard could throw lots of them.

Of course, the good news is that primary spell casters are going to HATE us. : )

- - - - -

And yes, have fun Briccone! Enjoy Bremuda!

the slayer is on d20pfsrd as hybrid classes. Take a look, it's basically a combination of Ranger and Rogue... so exactly the route we were slowly revolving towards. Gives up spellcasting to get some better sneak attack and some other quirks.

Yeah, I just saw. I'm not sure how much I like these hybrid classes, but that is probably because the Investigator threw me off. Does Paizo just hate rogues? How is the Investigator not better than the Rogue in every way? Sigh

Anyway, I'll take a look at it.

lol. ya the hybrids can be really solid, plus some of the archetypes are crazy....


At 7th level, a stygian slayer is able to use spell completion and spell trigger items as if he were an arcane caster with these spells on his spell list: darkness, forced quiet, modify memory, nondetection, obscuring mist, phantom steed, shadow walk, and wizard spells of the illusion school of spell level 0 through 4th. The slayer's uses his class level as his caster level for this ability.

This ability replaces stalker.

Stalker: At 7th level, a slayer gains his studied target bonus on Disguise, Intimidate, and Stealth checks against his studied opponent.

That is quite the swap...

And I tend to agree with the feel that this should be martial heavy campaign, which is why I leaned towards a martial character for sure.

Ok, quick and dirty DPR calcs are in: Slayer is kind of odd.

He has the same to hit problem that you initially did, but the amount of damage from sneak attack manages to actually keep his DPR in pace or very slightly better than the Ranger.

Basically, you're going to whiff more often (maybe a lot more often), but on average, when you hit, you hit harder. Of course, it is all up to how well those d6's roll.

But if you throw in that you'll probably be able to at least consistently flank with yourself, and suddenly you jump up to being ahead of the Ranger with your sneak attack, probably right on par with him if you don't count the first blow as having sneak attack (since you won't be flanking yet).

So yeah, damage wise, it is probably roughly where you want to be. How are you going to switch stuff around for the dimensional stuff?

here was my thought for the dimensional stuff.

Change Slayer talent to Starting at 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a slayer gains one slayer talent.

so half the amount of slayer talents.

and add

Shadow Movement

As a slayer gains experience, he gains new understanding of the Rashan Warren and how to manipulate it to aid him in battle.

Starting at 2nd level a shadow warrior can call upon the Rashan Warren to create a path of shadow which the warrior can use to teleport instantly between two spots as a move action up to his speed per jump. The shadow warrior cannot travel through occupied squares or through solid objects in this way. At 2nd level the maximum distance that can be traveled this way without harm is 60 feet per day. This value increases by 60 feet for every additional 2 levels thereafter.

The shadow warrior can choose to travel further then the max allowable distance but takes a cumulative 1d6 nonlethal damage for each additional 30 feet traveled.

At 6th level, the shadow warrior can take a full-attack action, activating shadow movement as a swift action. If your do, you can teleport up to twice your speed, up to the maximum distance allowed, dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.

At 10th Level, While using Shadow movement, you provide flanking from all squares you attack from. Flanking starts from the moment you make an attack until the start of your next turn. You can effectively flank with yourself and with multiple allies when using this feat.

So the cost ends up being gain the dimensional stuff for giving up 5 slayer talents. Instead of using the feat and having to deal with dimension door restrictions I just wrote the ones I really wanted to use straight into the ability.

I may adjust some of the other abilities but need to balance this one first as it's kind of key to the whole class.

Slayer lets you take Ranger Style feats at Talents, so I think you could just take your dimensional feats (or abilities that are essentially them) like a new Ranger Style.

The real question is what to give up for the shadow movement.

Some thing to consider: since you made it be unable to move through occupied squares or solid object, you are cutting the power of it WAY down. I'd probably reword it to say that you must have (and 'travel' across) a line of effect to the ending space. Basically, you can go over or around walls, as long as there is a path you could have taken to get there.

Anyway, I'd just say 30' per level instead of 60' every two. It's kind of a thematic point for you.

How about replacing the first Slayer talent with it, remove Improved Quarry, and put Quarry in it's place?

Could work. Other option potentially could be if we are replacing it for Ranger's Combat styles would be for it to use the 2nd, 6th, and 10th level Ranger Combat style Slayer talents (basically the 3 points you could take the Ranger Combat Style at with the current Slayer talents).

That is what I was thinking, but Shadow Movement by itself is a little bit better than most feats. Honestly, just swapping those three talents would probably be fine though. Especially since it isn't 'true' dimension door.

ya, part of the reason I put a condition on not through occupied squares, or through solid objects is too bring down it's power so it's not a true teleport.

It Still allows amazing maneuverability around combat (plus things like running up walls, can't go through objects but can use it to travel in 3 dimensions around them) without it being a true teleport. It's real use is to be able to re-position in combat without provoking AoOs, the rest is to try and make sneak attack more viable by making it far easier to get into flanking position.

Another thought would be to allow the use an Overrun type move to go through occupied squares. So I can attempt to go through occupied squares but have to win a combat maneuver check to do it.

Yeah, then I'd definitely change it to say it requires line of effect. Otherwise I don't think your suggested wording allows traveling behind objects.

I can see what you mean. I'm intending to do thing a little similarly, but by jumping over enemies when appropriate. : )

How about requiring an acrobatics check (as normal) to move through an enemies squares, but give a bonus to the check when using shadow movement? Or just allow it to always count as moving through their threatened area instead of through their occupying square?

I've been thinking about using this, for enemy generals or important npcs.

Path of war.

Funny. Remember when I suggested you look at the Tome of Battle and the Blade Magic system? That is pretty much exactly the same thing.

Seems pretty neat. Would we be allowed to take the feats that would give us access to the maneuvers?

Alright Aku I think I've got a pretty good handle on my character...which fyi, is not the shadow warrior above, thought about that and just didn't quite like how much nickle and dime changes were having to be made to make it viable. New build will be posted either tonight or tomorrow.

Anways my question... Would there be any physical reason why a Moranth couldn't procreate with a human? Trying to find a hook to rationalize having a Single Moranth leave on their own as it sounds like the Moranth never are solitary. Figure a forbidden pregnancy by a member of the gold Moranth that came to light could ostracize the child, leaving her without many options with the cloud forest.

Alright, so more along the lines of creating an archetype, and getting away from a lot of the confusion that was coming from the shadow warrior I present My Moranth Swashbuckler. Still rough draft so haven't gone about making it more cohesive (i.e. getting rid of the copy-paste mistakes)

Moranth Swashbuckler

Archetype changes:

Skills: Replaced Diplomacy, Knowledge(local) with Knowledge(Nature), and Stealth.

Replaced light armor proficiency with personal chitin armor proficiency.

Replaced Nimble with New Chitin Armor (basically glorified Fighter's Armor training, with some slight additional benefits to compensate for the fact that Moranth never take off their armor)

Replaced Charmed Life with Monk's Fast Movement (Took it down to 5 iteration instead of 6, so it more closely matches the iterations of Charmed Life.)

Replaced Targeted Strike with Dervish Dancer's Dance of Fury (replaced while performing a battle dance with by spending 1 panache point.)

Okay, question: Do you want to start at level one or at level 4?

Level one, would imply in the time of the emperor, the forging and such.

Level 4 would be after the emperor death, Laseen coup, and the siege of Pale.

The Moranth

" In our eyes deeds have measure. We judge. We act upon our judgements. As in Pale, we match spirit with spirit...Eighteen thousand seven hundred and thirty-nine souls departed in the purge of Pale. One for each Moranth confirmed as a victim of Pale’s history of enmity towards us. Spirit with spirit, Bird That Steals...There are worms within your empire’s flesh. But such degradation is natural in all bodies. Your people’s infection is not yet fatal. It can be scoured clean. The Moranth are skilled at such efforts."


The Moranth are a mysterious and reclusive race of humanoids residing upon the continent of Genabackis. They reside in cities built in their native territory of Cloud Forest, though no outsider has ever claimed to have seen these settlements. The Moranth are never seen without their armor, which has been described as making them look insect-like. They are one of several races descended from the ancient T'lan Imass, and are divided by a strict caste/clan system. Different clans are determined by the color of armor they wear. They are a divided people, each caste in fanatic competition with each other. During the reign of the Malazan Empire, the Silver Moranth clan dominated the Moranth clans. The Moranth defy the cliche of barbaric peoples, and are said to have Annals and written histories dating back seven thousand years.

The Moranth are renowned for their alchemical prowess.The Moranth munitions they gave to the Malazans completely changed the practice of warfare for the Empire, being a major contribution to the success of the Genabackian campaign. Their method of transport is unique among Genabackian society, having tamed the airborn insect-like creatures, the Quorl.

The Moranth have contributed greatly to many Malazan military campaigns. Notably, in the books we have seen the Moranth and their sense of vengeance when they breached the city of Pale, after the bloody siege that took place there.

The Moranth share ties with the Barghast, due to their mutual ancestors, the T'lan Imass. They consider the Barghast their Fallen Kin, though the Barghast see otherwise. They speak the same language as the Barghast shouldermen, which Cafal claims is: "the language that rose from the pit of darkness from whence all thought and all words first came."

Considering their ancestry, it is fair to say their language is possibly derived from the ancient tongue of the T'lan Imass, and may even be that same language. Cafal's claims to it being the first language are suspect however, due to the K'Chain Che'Malle race of sentient lizards predating the rise of the Imass. All in all, it is fair to say the Moranth speak a language derived from the Imass tongue, and is probably one of the oldest tongues among the manifold human populations of the Malazan world.

The Moranth have had contact with the Tiste Edur as well. The Edur appear to have arrived at Cloud Forest due to the presence of a piece of the shattered warren, Kurald Emurlahn, where they encountered the Barghast who came to be known as the Moranth. The Edur were few and the Moranth welcomed them. The Edur exchanged ideas with them, and taught them alchemy, without which, they may never have come to prominence by producing their explosive munitions.

Known Moranth Clans/Castes
Green - The Green Moranth are mainly involved with transportation, whether it be transporting provisions or people to wherever they need to be.

Black - The Black Moranth are the most encountered caste, due to their involvements with Malazan military campaigns. Lead by Twist.

Gold - The Gold Moranth seem to be largely comprised of elite warriors.

Silver - The Silver Moranth are the dominant clan in Moranth society. They are comprised of Mages. They are the reason why the Malazans possess the munition technology of the Moranth, for the munitions were meant for use against mages.

Blue - The Blue Moranth, are a seafaring clan who know the ways of the water.
References and Sources:

"Originally, before the dominance of the Silver caste among the Moranth, the munitions existed to counter sorcery, or, rather, to kill sorcerors. Now, since the Silver are mages, the munitions are strictly export items only, and it seems supply is drying up....

"Allies. They're claiming their hour of blood. At the end of that hour there would be a few score thousand fewer survivors among the citizens of Pale. The long savage history between the neighbouring peoples was about to have the scales of retribution balanced. By the sword." - thoughts of Tattersail

The alliance between the Moranth and the Empire had changed the face of Imperial war. The Malazan tactics here on Genabackis had twisted into a new shape, one increasingly dependent on transport by air of both soldiers and supplies. Such dependency was dangerous, as far as Whiskeyjack was concerned. We know so little about these Moranth – no one has ever seen their cities in the forest. I can’t even tell their sex.

Most scholars held that they were true humans, but there was no way to tell – the Moranth collected their own dead from the battlefields. There would be trouble in the Empire if the Moranth ever exercised a thirst for power. From what he had heard, however, the various colour factions among them marked an ever-changing hierarchy, and the rivalry and competition remained at a fanatical pitch.

'He knew something of the history of grim enmity between the Moranth and the citizens of the once Free City of Pale. Contested trade routes, two mercantile powers at each other’s throat. And Pale won more often than not. At long last it seemed that the black-armoured warriors from beyond the western mountains, whose faces remained hidden behind the chitinous visors on their helms and who spoke in clicks and buzzes, were evening the score' - Whiskeyjack -

"..different clans don’t like to mix. The Moranth are made up of a bunch of clans, got colours for names, and wear them too. Nobody gets confused that way." -

'...a hell of a time getting the Gold legions – their élite warriors – to fight Caladan Brood. Seems they consider him too honourable to treat as an enemy. The whole alliance was on shaky ground for a while there, but in the end they marched.' - Dujek Onearm

"The Moranth speak the language of the Barghast shouldermen – the holy tongue – the language that rose from the pit of darkness from whence all thought and all words first came. The Moranth claim kinship with the Barghast – they call us their Fallen Kin. But it is they who have fallen, not us. They who have found a shadowed forest in which to live. They who have embraced the alchemies of the T’isten’ur. They who made peace with the demons long ago, exchanging secrets, before retreating into their mountain fastnesses and hiding for ever behind their insect masks." - Cafal (the name T'isten'ur is derived from Tiste Edur)

"Children of the Shattered Warren. A fragment had been discovered, in the vast forest of Moranth that would become our new homeland. Kurald Emurlahn, the true face of Shadow. There were so few Tiste Edur left, we chose to welcome them. The last of them are gone now, from Moranth Wood, long gone, but their legacy is what has made us as we are.'
'Achievant, it may take me a while to make sense of what you've just described. I have questions—'

Twist shrugged again. 'We did not slay the Tiste Edur. In Barghast eyes, that is our greatest crime. I wonder, however, if the Elder Spirits - now gods - see it in similar light.'"

’So - they can't take it off? Really?'
Eyes shut, Heuk gave an exaggerated nod. 'Never. Doesn't come off.'

Okay definitely thinking my crazy acrobatic Moranth is where I'm leaning towards, unless I think of something else equally cool or it doesn't mesh well with the other's concepts (we are a small elite squad, so have to assume we would all have skills that somehow complement one another).

Torn on the lvl 1, versus lvl 4.

As an elite squad I think the level 4 start makes more sense... but I really know nothing about the backstory of this campaign and being able to start at the beginning would be awesome from an RP perspective.

Aku do you have any other information on how warren magic is going to work, and the spell groupings? My class I've created is completely martial, but most of that is due to having no idea how the magic system is supposed to work...

Ayup, I'm not sure on which side of the martial/ caster divide I want to be on either.

Nice setup Blondebandit. I haven’t run numbers, but since it is almost the same as the base class, it should be ok.

Some comments though:
The fast movement seems (at least to me) better than the bonus to saving throws, at least at first glance. Then again, you already have a pretty poor save set, and Charmed Life is probably meant to be the one saving grace of that.
Were you expecting there to be multiple kinds of Chitin armor? Because with that one listed, it seems less powerful than Nimble. But if it was intended for there to be other kinds, then I would have to see them before I could comment.
Also related to Chitin armor, I think that magic item creations is going to be different. Any comment on that, DM Aku?

Overall though, nice.


@DM Aku, the Morinth do have a neat thing going for them.

I was looking for various sample images and found something that sounds like the Morinth to me: Link

As far as starting at level 1 or 4, I’m torn just like Blondebandit on that one. We’re an Elite unit, so it seems odd to start at level 1. But starting at level one would give us a good opportunity to try and catch up to the game lore.


Last days have been hard for me.
And It seems it will only get worse, until next week.


I'll read with more time all your posts, there's a lot to catch up.
The most recent question however, about magic items, I'll give a little preview.

Magic items will work almost in the same way, except for it's creation.

the mage, when creating the item, invest his personal power on it. (Taking into consideration you have 'mana points',) that power is kept in the item (meaning it will be as if you have always those ‘mana’ points used), until the mage deem to remove it. However, if the item is destroyed, the power invested is lost forever, it don’t return to the mage.

As you can see, this will make magic items, weapons and armors, prized possessions. Hard to find and to come by.

Other items, charms , trinkets will work mostly based on charges, meaning when you use it, the creator get it’s power back. That’s why small charms and trinkets will be commonly available.

I'm sorry to hear that Aku, and I hope things get better!

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