Alchemist Tentacle discovery and Grappling

I just picked up GM duties for a group running CC, and our Maneuver Master Monk player just asked me a question I can't quite puzzle through with my limited knowledge of grappling rules.
For starters, she's playing as an Oakling and now (at level 11) is treated as a huge character after being permanently enlarged.

The question is this: would she be able to use the Alchemist's Tentacle discovery in conjunction with her grappling? As in, would she be able to use her tentacle to maintain a grapple on someone while using her regular limbs to maintain/progress a grapple on another character?

Any thoughts?

Maintaining a grapple is a standard action, so under normal circumstances there is no way to maintain a grapple on multiple targets even with multiple limbs.

The tentacle normally would, except that the alchemists tentacle specifically will not give you that extra actions.

Tentacle (Ex): The alchemist gains a prehensile, arm-length tentacle on his body. The tentacle is fully under his control and cannot be concealed except with magic or bulky clothing. The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though he can use it to make a tentacle attack (1d4 damage for a Medium alchemist, 1d3 damage for a Small one) with the grab ability. The tentacle can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms can (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, the tentacle to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). Unlike an arm, the tentacle has no magic item slots.

The advantage it would give him is that he could (probably) grab on an attack of opportunity or with spring attack and the like.

What Blahpers said +...

1) Greater Grapple reduces Maintain to a Move Action, so you can Maintain vs. 2 Targets if they are already Grappled.

2) If you had another Natural Attack (Bite, Claws, etc) and applied the Druid/Ranger spell Lockjaw to that, both that Nat Attack and the Tentacl would both have Grab. Instead of ACTUALLY 'Maintaining' the Grapple, you could Drop the Grapple, and Full Attack, getting damage in, and 're-establishing' the Grapple... Which wouldn't 'progress' (to Pin, etc) but the target would still be Grappled, which is sometimes all you really need/want (especially vs. 2-Handed weapon users and Casters).

Re: the line that BNW hilighted... I'm honestly not sure what is meant by giving you a Tentacle (Natural Attack) but then saying it 'does not give you any extra attacks'...? Is the RAI that the Tentacle is treated as an Iterative/Weapon attack and NOT per the normal Natural Attack rules? If so, they really should have just said that.

Re: the line that BNW hilighted... I'm honestly not sure what is meant by giving you a Tentacle (Natural Attack) but then saying it 'does not give you any extra attacks'...? Is the RAI that the Tentacle is treated as an Iterative/Weapon attack and NOT per the normal Natural Attack rules? If so, they really should have just said that.

From the combat rules:

"You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack... You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack."

I think the issue is how the tentacle counts as a limb. The Vestigial Arm discovery works the same way:

"The arm does not give the alchemist any extra attacks or actions per round, though the arm can wield a weapon and make attacks as part of the alchemist’s attack routine (using two-weapon fighting). The arm can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist’s original arms (for example, allowing the alchemist to use one hand to wield a weapon, another hand to hold a potion, and the third hand to throw a bomb). The arm has its own “hand” and “ring” magic item slots (though the alchemist can still only wear two rings and two hand magic items at a time). "

So I think that you would not get a secondary tentacle attack in addition to bombs or regular weapon attacks, and that vestigial arm would not grand an extra claw for feral mutagen. However, I can't imagine not getting your tentacle attack along with your other natural attacks when using feral mutagen.

Also, note that vestigial arm can wield a weapon and that the tentacle "can manipulate or hold items as well as the alchemist's original arms can," but it isn't mentioned whether the tentacle can wield a weapon.

These two discoveries are similarly worded and were published together, and yet one makes sense and the other doesn't.

However, I can't imagine not getting your tentacle attack along with your other natural attacks when using feral mutagen.

but that would be getting an extra attack.

These two discoveries are similarly worded and were published together, and yet one makes sense and the other doesn't.

but this is paizo publishing this... oh.

The mighty khan

Note the interaction here.

Instead, you receive additional attack rolls

vs

The tentacle does not give the alchemist any extra attacks

So the tentacle would NORMALLY (in so far as growing a tentacle could be considered normal) grant you an extra attack, but because of the specific clause on that tentacle ability it doesn't.

sure, no extra attack, so how do you ever make a tentacle attack?
it would have to be in place of an attack you already have. which one(s)?
if it's in place of any iterative attack, that's pretty unique that 1 natural attack can make multiple attacks/round.
there's nothing that says that though.
alternatively, it would work if it gave a special action to make this attack, but obviously it doesn't do that either.

My many readings of the alchemist and natural weapon rules have lead me to the conclusion that the Tentacle discovery was written under the assumption that natural attacks were interchangeable with iterative.

The way it's worded pretty much limits it to a standard action attack with only the tentacle unless you rule that it can "replace" a different existing natural attack you already have.

However, I did find a link to a dev post suggesting that the intent of the natural attack rules is that if you gain a natural attack, you get it... but it wasn't in context of tentacle(or even the alchemist I think) and I didn't see any further clarification later in the thread, so...

re: your last point, yes, that's indeed how things normally work...
it is curious what the intent is here...
replacing iteratives makes sense, but why not let it go in place of another natural attack if you want?
such a function is definitely pretty bizarre though (rules wise) and needs to be explicitly called out.

re: your last point, yes, that's indeed how things normally work...

it is curious what the intent is here...
replacing iteratives makes sense, but why not let it go in place of another natural attack if you want?
such a function is definitely pretty bizarre though (rules wise) and needs to be explicitly called out.

I would agree there...

my post probably should have said "erroneous assumption", as I don't believe the author intended to make an exception...

I suspect it may be another issue of the natural attack rules in the CRB initially referencing TWF.

sure, no extra attack, so how do you ever make a tentacle attack?

The way I'm reading it is You make one attack with the tentacle, and that's it. No using it in combos with other natural attacks or manufactured weapons, no combining the natural attacks and iteratives.

I read it as you dont ge any more attacks with manufactured weapons, but you get the actual natural attack wich you can use however you like according to that set of rules. my idea is if the vestigal arm discovery (and eindolon evolutions, and other ways you can get more limbs)it says specificly that you dont get extra attacks even though they dont come with natural attacks themselves, so you have to assume it means that you dont get extra manufactured weapon attacks. considering it has the exact same wording I beleive that you cant say weild a sword with a tentacle and get an extra attack with that sword, but you can use a full atack action to gain the tentacle attack and all other natural attacks. Its realy a sentence that is used with all abilitys that grant extra limbs.

sure, no extra attack, so how do you ever make a tentacle attack?

I take it to mean that the alchemist can choose to attack normally [i]or[i] us a tentacle attack. Using a tentacle attack takes the place of his normal standard action for the round, and it can not be used as part of a full attack (although i suppose he could full attack with the tentacle if he wanted, but there would be no reason to do so as it would still just be one attack). Thus he gets no extra attacks or actions in the course a round.