So far, so good. I've been quiet as I don't want to bias you too much and also I'm trying to decide to info dump on you fast and furious, or let you go grilling NPCs with love and diplomacy ;)
Do you already have silent image? That and ghost sound can work pretty well together.
Identify is also a good choice, since it doesn't cost a truckload to cast any more.
I'm just not creative enough to get full mileage out of silent image and the other illusions I think. Identify maybe though...
I may be in the minority but I don't like bards taking identify. It is too limited on a daily basis most of the time and just as good to have in a wand if someone can craft it. High ranks in spellcraft is just as good. I would try to stick to something that can be used more often. It also depends on what you want to do with it. Alarm isn't bad for when it is time to sleep and you are casting it every night. Expeditious retreat is great on a dwarf to get that mobility. Feather fall can be a life saver and at least 1 person should always have it should chasms open up beneath people.
Good points. What I'm hearing is utility, utility, utility. I need to sleep on it some more I think.
That is the hard part about bards. Limited spell selection but spammable. Just need to figure out how you want him designed and go with that concept. If your concept is wanting to be knowledgeable and identify items then still take identify.
btw I will be gone Friday night but I will get responses up during the day hopefully.
I think you will get alot of mileage out of expeditious retreat...pun intended.
I have family in town until Saturday.
My posting will be curtailed until then.
Kragg will be amused to note that Zuth is still watching, I hope
Okay, about downtime... I know not all of you are crazy about kingdom running, particularly since that kingdom currently consists mostly of one gnome town, and a mushroom field.
That said, there are benefits for taking time to dream. One day, Fastervault maybe a major city if you want it to be, a shining gemstone in the mutlijeweled crown of your new under empire...or it could be a neglected little niche famous only for your heroic defense of it.
So how much time do you think your characters will take to get things going for this area. You WILL probably want a base of operations if nothing else while you explore.
Skipping ahead to find Dammerhall makes sense...except I'll flat out spoil things for you, that ain't happening any time soon . Not only is the way still something of a mystery , I don't have the PDF for it yet ;)
So right now, you're at an exploration, build your powerbase, or mix of both sort of thing.
Downtime can be as long or short as you want it, we can either skim it, or try to RP a lot of it out. Either way, I'd like to hear your preferences
We are Dwarves. So ya know, we aren't very hasty or in any hurry because we live a long time.
I'm actually ok with the Kingdom building rules and I know there are some google spreadsheets somewhere for kingdom building that I could find over in the kingmaker forums.
Re:Crafting I'm not sure if you guys have anything planned, but I spoke with the GM and he will allow us to use the alternate "Making Craft Work" ruleset. It's an awesome little PDF made by Spes Magna games that both simplifies and fixes using the Craft skill to make it usable by PCs. Dolgrin plans on forging some armor in the next few weeks, I think maybe Kragg has some spells that might help with this? Is anyone else planning on Crafting?
Ulfgar do you want to do some accounting, or unlock the loot tracker so that I can?
That way each character knows what they have to work with as far as items/coin goes.
We have a Dammerhall forged MWK Greataxe, Dolgrin will take that if no one else does. I'd figured it would be better for Ulfgar but he hasn't taken it.
Hadn't taken it as the hammer is his family item and he will use it first deferring to the axe he has only at need.
The tracker should be open if not I can unlock it but thought it was already. I know the other one in Iron Gods is.
I am NOT familiar with the kingdom making rules and probably should have taken a craft but have not as yet. That being said.
Ulfgar as stated in gameplay is looking at long term. So while the grand wall that our sheriff mentioned might be an undertaking of several years, months is expected with skirmishes with the Drow in the meantime and other gnome cities to warn. Ulfgar has plen ty to keep him busy. At least so far as the GM allows.
What rule set are we using for downtime and kingdom building? The ones found in ultimate campaign?
I want to take a look first before I see how involved it is and make a commitment.
Hannarr isn't planning any crafting.
I'm cool with having fun with the kingdom building rules, but I don't know how you want to handle the pacing. If no one in Fastervault knows the path to Dammarhall then I suppose we are up for some slow and steady exploring as well.
GM, I think you'll need to prompt us regarding how you want the mechanical end of those handled - ie in character narrative vs spreadsheets and ooc discussions.
I'm planning on magic item creation for Modnar, but unless the Spes Magna rules get us around the feats (and jack my caster level something fierce), it's gonna be a bit before I can make any serious headway on that front.
I am not familiar with Kingmaker, but I don't have a problem with working to establish Fasturvalt further. If nothing else, my past experience with drow suggests long memories. :-/
Nah, the alternate ruleset works only for using the Craft skill not making magic items.
Funny enough, crafting magic items is easier than crafting mundane items according to CRB rules...
Ulfgar would like to use the mithril shirt we found, will need some help adjusting for size, Kragg? But should serve him well for a while. Any objections?
Dolgrin did you try the sheet yesterday for editing?
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Yep its fully editable now!
However, all those tabs make it very confusing for me...
I did though, label things to go to players. IE Dolgrin takes the Greataxe, Ulfgar takes the Mithril Chain Shirt, Kragg takes the Scroll of Magic Circle vs. Evil
Back when I convinced (begged) Ridge to run this one I told him I would handle maps/pictures/kingdom building accounting for him. To assist with that I have found This Spreadsheet
Take a look at the spreadsheet and let me know what you think. As for rules, I think we should use These from the PRD, specifically because they are accessible for everyone.
The first thing is to determine everyone's role in the new "Kingdom" and then decide its Alignment (I vote LG) and then assign roles. The mandatory roles are
Ruler (Dolgrin, CHA to Economy,Loyalty or Stability)
Councilor (Miatha ,CHA or WIS to Loyalty)
General (??????????? CHA or STR to Stability)
Grand Diplomat (Hanarr, CHA or INT to Stability)
High Priest (Kragg, WIS to Stability)
Magister (Modnar, INT to Economy)
Marshal (Ulfgar, DEX or WIS to economy)
Spymaster (Knivey Ivy DEX to any)
Treasurer (Anka? INT or WIS to Economy)
Warden (Sheriff Harvald, Con or Str to Loyalty)
PC's don't have to be assigned to ALL the roles, but should all have one role. I've put my own ideas for who would be good at which role, but you guys feel free to chime in with your own ideas.
Will look at everything during lunch today.
I've been tinkering with the Kingdom Builder spreadsheet...
Any position which favors strength or intelligence would be appropriate for Anka.
Ultimate Campaign also added the option of skill ranks further adjusting our kingdom modifiers. Each role has a different skill associated with it & ranks in that skill can further improve the modifier.
I will check which skills are associated with which role.
Those are under the optional rules section, and I'm not sure if Ridge wants to mess with those.
Points in the direction of the WotR thread
I'll read up on the PRD kingdom-building rules this weekend. I agree with Modnar's placement; none of the other titles really match his skill set.
I was looking over the loot tracker sheet when I remembered why I don't play many arcane casters. Treasure-collecting isn't all that awesome when you only need a handful of items. Oh well -- the prices we pay for bending the multiverse to our whims, eh? :-)
Scrolls. Lots and Lots and Lots of scrolls.
Okay, first things first, Dolgrin thank you for that spreadsheet.
I'm leaning towards heavy use of character narrative and being fast and loose because while it might lead to more mistakes, it might also save a lot of hassle. If I err, I'll try to correct the err on the side of you guys
@ Anka, I'll take a look at the skill options. It does make some sense that certain skills should help. On the other hand, I worry it might make it hard for the skill poor classes to pull their weight compared to the skill heavy ones.
@ Dolgrin, the suggestions for placement look pretty good. But you guys WILL have to talk the NPCs into accepting, which for some may not be hard.
Since there is no official "Stuffy Head Acadamian with skeletons in the closet" title, Hannarr will be happy to fill the grand diplomat role.
Hannar will claim the mstwk rapier and the mstwk thieves tools. I've updated the loot tracker on the "Hannarr" tab, the "unclaimed" loot tab and the main tab, plus my character profile. Whew!
Yep its fully editable now!
However, all those tabs make it very confusing for me...
I just got through with my first look through at the Kingdom Worksheet from above - and your confused by my simple spreadsheet?????? LOL,
The kingdom sheet may make more sense by the end of the weekend when I have had a chance to read through the rules for kingdom building, definitely NOT something I'll be looking around using my phone.
Oh, I've posted this before, but if you guys are looking for more 'dwarf style' titles for the leadership roles, the AP recommends these
Position Dwarf Equivalent (in dwarvish)
Ruler = King (Rik)†
Consort = Queen (Rikka)
Councilor = My Ear (Hyrûn)
General = My Axe (Barkûn)
Grand Diplomat = My Voice (Galabûn)
Heir = Heir (Rayad)
High Priest = My Heart (Kurdûn)
Magister = My Quill (Ikarthûn)
Marshal = My Eye (Izarûn)
Royal Enforcer ††
Spymaster = My Dagger (Garthûn)
Treasurer = My Purse (Vashûn)
Viceroy = My Ring (Ruthûn)
Warden = My Shield (Murkûn)
So yes, frex: Ivy , if she accepts Spymaster, would become Izarun, or "Ivy the Dagger of (Name of Kingdom)" or some variation if you went with those.
Okay...doing a bit of lookseeing at what the AP says the town has and it would be something like this officially:
Fastervault
20 BP(Was 5 but the AP says I can bump it up to normal starting levels instead of such a small amount)
Buildings completed:
Houses 4 (Unrest -4)
Inn 1 (Economy +1/Loyalty +1) (Settlement Society +1 )
Quarry 1 (Economy +2) ( +1 BP per turn when collecting taxes during the Income phase. )
There is also a City Wall (-2 Unrest) (Special: Defense +1) at least in parts thanks to your preparation if I recall which should be pretty easy to expand or move around.
And yet
That doesn't include the Armory, the graveyard (Admittedly not a typical one) or the late Lord's manor
Trying to decide if I should factor those in.
Also a certain shrine could be pretty cheaply restored
Kingdom Spreadsheet is updated with GM Ridge's info.
Harvald is on board to be Marshal, this means Anka is the town general...makes sense as she is the one who led the insan brave defenders of the mushroom bridge.
Tammar would make an excellent Treasurer, as he knows the town's major trade (Stone).
Miatha would make a great Councillor (The Councilor acts as a liaison between the citizenry and the other kingdom leaders, parsing requests from the commonwealth and presenting the leaders' proclamations to the people in understandable ways. It is the Councilor's responsibility to make sure the Ruler is making decisions that benefit the kingdom's communities and its citizens.)
This means Anka is the town general...makes sense as she is the one who led theinsanbrave defenders of the mushroom bridge.
Not to mention the fact that it would make her...
wait for it...Barkûn Anka...
>;D
OK Ridge, Dolgrin, someone else who has played this ruleset before...
a lot of little things to learn but I think I have my mill project figured out. The book says I need 8 Goods and 7 Labor to rebuild the Mill. My best skill bonus for Goods is stealth(+8) but I don't think it matches up well with building a building so I went with Kn:Dungeoneering.
1 unit Goods - 7 to go
1 unit Goods - 6 to go
1 unit Goods - 5 to go
2 unit Goods - 3 to go
1 unit Goods - 2 to go
1 unit Goods - 1 to go
1 unit Goods - 0 to go
Then I have to work on the Labor correct?
1 unit Labor - 6 to go
1 unit Labor - 5 to go
1 unit Labor - 4 to go
1 unit Labor - 3 to go
1 unit Labor - 2 to go
1 unit Labor - 1 to go
2 unit Labor - +1 Labor after building completed to go
So two full weeks working on the Mill with Sander-Still-Not-Very-Happy-With-Me and sons. At the end of which I have 1 repaired Mill and 1 labor banked for future use.
I agree the Marshall sounds like a good spot for Ulfgar, Once the town has been stabilized he will be spending some time away to learn the lay of the land.
So maybe I missed something but are we using the kingdom building rules set or the downtime rules or are they both compatible with each other?
Both were mentioned above, I thought they were supposed to be compatible, dunno for sure
They can be compatible. I was going with Kingdom building rules played fast and loose, but anyone who wants to try their hands at the downtime rules speak up and we'll see. those too will be fast and loose.
I'm not necessarily partial to either, more like learning both as we go. Just trying to make sure my math is correct above as played by Downtime rules. Earning BP's wasn't clearly explained outside of a wealthy benefactor or 4k gp per BP.
Kingdom rules are simpler, lets not use the downtime rules also, it will get overly complicated quickly.
Capital doesn't translate into BP very well either.
The Kingdom can rebuild things.
Also Ulfgar, I'm pretty sure you have to expend gold also to get capital.
Im still confused on the Process of gaining build points. From what I've read, under the kingdom building ruleset, to rebuild the mill where it was before is 3 BP's (1/2 because it already existed on the lot). I'm just confused on how to replace the 3 BP's for the next project, outside of donating 4k gp for each one. I've been reading but not connecting all of the dots well so far.
***Edit hold last thought, found some items this time reading, I missed the first time, spotted a few buildings that mention generating BP's
Finally had a chance to go through the downtime rules in their entirety. My 4cp, I get 4cp due to my age...
the down time rules and kingdom building can work together as only 1 week a month is devoted to kingdom building. The other 3 weeks we have downtime. During that time we can perform tasks, do research, earn money ect. At this point kingdom building sounds like the best option for building up Faustervalt as we do not have enough money ourselves to do anything. We start with a set BP, 20, according to Ridge and purchase our first building for the city. Then every month we add more depending on what our BP income roll is and our left over from the month before.
From experience with kingmaker I found it easier to have 1 person that is interested in kingdom building worry about the rolls and the exact use of a spreadsheet to track everything. Others give their input but only 1 person makes the rolls all at one time. To speed things up we can discuss what we all want in the discussion thread and have a list of too 5 that we want built or each person picks 1 item that is on the cheaper end of the spectrum. Then the person making the rolls purchases them when appropriate.
If an individual builds a building then you can add that to the kingdom for that month in addition to what the kingdom is building. The kingdom basically gets the building for free.
Example: Kragg will spend the first month of time broken up as follows he will be performing kingdom building duties by giving services at the shrine every 4 days. Also Kragg wants to help on the bridge construction as he was the one that proposed destroying it and wants to replace what he destroyed. Kragg will work 1 out of 4 days on that. To make some money Kragg wants to work brewing his Edith's spirits for the gnomes so he will spend the other 14 days making money. Should he make enough money the first month then Kragg will switch from mark ignominy to spending that money to build his own brewery needed inn the necessary capital. Once the brewery is completed Kragg can start earning income himself from the business but also that brewery gets added to the kingdom as the kingdom will still get taxes from it raising its economy.
This sound right Ridge?
I think the AP uses a different time period for kingdom building turns, I think 3 months is the turn time not 1 month....
However, that still makes your idea awesome Kragg. I second your idea heartily, this way everyone can do their own thing while the kingdom building is going on.
Options for first month/turn from Kragg for kingdom building...
Claim mushroom field and farm it reducing our consumption
Possible buildings to consider...
Fix mill for half cost. This helps the city and fulfills Ulfgar's request and adds to the kingdom's economy and stability.
Smithy for those that want to make their own armor or weapons and also increases economy and stability.
Need to get my own brewery and tavern going. Just need 350gp and about 3 months of time to complete it if I am reading the rules right.
Sounds like a good plan Kragg,
Isn't the mushroom field already being used as a farm??? Or with Kingdom maker rules do you have to formally make it a farm.
Thanks for the nod to the Mill, and the smithy is also a sound investment I believe.
@Ridge for downtime income creation when not adventuring, can I use Ulfgar's survival skill to generate gold also gives him a chance to scout and learn the area, helping him with his role as Marshall.
I did not see the mushroom farm on the spreadsheet for currently owned which is why I included that in my recommendation. If it is included then great. Also I believe that if we road the mushroom field and pay 2bp that would include the cost of the bridge covering Kragg as well.
Ok, just so you guys understand the downtime rules. Creating any sort of capital COSTS gold, it doesn't earn any.
The only time you can EARN gold using the downtime rules is by creating an organization or a building.
You can however earn gold by making CRAFT or PROFESSION checks as per the skill description.
This is the part I was using to say I can earn gold
Skilled Work: If you have ranks in a useful skill, you can spend 1 day working in a settlement to earn more capital than you would doing unskilled work. Note that this method includes both legal and illegal means of earning capital—for example, a day spent using Sleight of Hand to earn money could be a day spent performing as a street magician or a day spent pickpocketing.
Choose either one type of capital (Goods, Influence, Labor, or Magic) or gp, and attempt a skill check. You can take 10 on this check.
If you chose gp, divide the result of your check by 10 to determine how many gp you earn that day. For example, if your check result is a 16, dividing it by 10 earns you 1 gp and 6 sp that day (round to the nearest silver).
Under the gaining capital section
Correct. I was talking about capital in specific, you cannot gain GP by earning capital.
I was unaware you could choose to earn GP from skills other than craft/profession
When you didn't pick a craft/profession you start looking real hard :-)
I do believe a craft/profession will be one of my skill choices next time
and gamewise a ranger hunting/scavenging to help support a town doesn't feel in the least for me to be a stretch. Seems like a good use of his skills.
I'm a bit unclear. Which Kingdom Positions are we needing/intending to fill with NPCs? Have we already contacted/convinced the NPC's in question to fill those positions?
Does that sound right Ridge?
If you guys want to designate one player to do the BP juggling, that's fine by me. I'm good with turning a lot of the mechanics over to someone if they're willing and have the time.
The mushroom field isn't listed in the AP as a proper farm BUT it could easily be made into one as you organize it etc. I can see an arguement for half price. Of course, it's also their graveyard and could BE one with the perks it brings...could it be both 'by the rules'? Not sure yet.