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Moar rules you say?
It seems there are two questions here:
1. How close Smite Chaos is to Smite Evil.
2. Question of scaling and usefulness.
As to closeness, smite evil deals extra damage (1 per level) if evil, and extra damage (2 per level) if the target also has the evil subtype, an evil dragon, or undead.
Smite Chaos does the same (1 per level) if chaotic, and extra (2 per level) if the target also has chaotic subtype, aberration, and fey (2 per level tied to the HK PrC, of course).
In my assessment, the 'Twice as effective' is in fact shorthand for replacing the Smite Evil list (evil subtype, evil dragon, undead, etc.) with the Smite Chaos list (chaotic, abb, fey).
As to scaling, you are true in your assessment: the ability doesn't scale too well, as it is tied to the HK PrC, but you are misunderstanding the 'doubling'. The doubling line is present in the original Smite Evil.
Jetta has +2 to attack (from Cha) and +1 to damage against chaotic (+2 vs. fey-king).
What do you guys think?
I think you're hosed, Neirikr. XD
Marien has +2 to attack as well, but a back-breaking +12 against fey-king if he happened to be undead or cosmologically evil.Or if he was a dragon.
@GM: This ability puts Jetta several steps back.
Might I propose a teensy little houserule? Allow half her fighter levels to count as hellknight levels for the purposes of Smite Chaos.
In this case, Jetta's effective Hellknight level will be 1 + 2 (half of 5, round down), for +3 to damage, or +6 to damage.
As to scaling, you are true in your assessment: the ability doesn't scale too well, as it is tied to the HK PrC, but you are misunderstanding the 'doubling'. The doubling line is present in the original Smite Evil.
Well, I do understand how the paladin ability is supposed to work. Much of the confusion comes from the wording, which not the same in both abilities:
If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses.
If the intention is to have it function exactly the same, why change the wording? Maybe it's just an oversight, but I think it balances out quite nicely interpreted literally as written.
I would not be opposed to house-ruling it to be a bit less useless, of course. :P
I dig it. Makes you look... younger. :)
As to the smite chaos debate, I'll have a definite answer tonight and adjudicate the turn based on my decision. If it affects your decision, I will mention that the King does look pretty shaky from the attack the last round - he's not likely to last a ton longer.
Okay, no smiting as of now. Still, I'll need a ruling on that at some point.
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If the intention is to have it function exactly the same, why change the wording? Maybe it's just an oversight, but I think it balances out quite nicely interpreted literally as written.
How do you understand it works?
A "double your Charisma and double your level (up to triple level since doubling a double is a triple in PF) against chaotic" kind of thing?I dig it. Makes you look... younger. :)
Mystic Theurge looks too much like Medivh from Warcraft for how I imagined Perry.
I've been trying to find someone that looks like David Xanatos (for the business man archetype, not the manipulative criminal mastermind archetype), but found Abadar, and he's what the doctor ordered.
Perry's new look:
One of my current PCs uses that avatar; he's, of course, an inquisitor from Abadar so very fitting indeed.
How do you understand it works?
A "double your Charisma and double your level (up to triple level since doubling a double is a triple in PF) against chaotic" kind of thing?
Something like that, yes. I was thinking more along the lines of 'double your Charisma and double your level against these specific foes, period.' As in, that replaces the line about '2 points of damage per level' in the Smite Evil description, because of the way it's called out. The paladin ability is not actually 'twice as effective' against the specified foes, since only your damage is doubled for one strike. If the Smite Chaos description is supposed to be shorthand for the '2 points of damage per level' spiel, they really should have just said so clearly.
Sorry Amund, I missed answering before! Yes, Ursa can act in combat if you like, although it's a move action and a Handle Animal check from you in order to do so.
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If the Smite Chaos description is supposed to be shorthand for the '2 points of damage per level' spiel, they really should have just said so clearly.
I see what you mean. The wording is indeed not precise enough to be clear. There are many instances (especially in PrC) where wording is foggy.
However, the term 'doubling' alone is an insufficient basis if you wish to double the power of this ability.But I do believe the intent behind the term 'twice as effective' was a (quite convoluted) way of saying 'against these guys, deal twice as much damage to'.
In areas where rules or terms are unclear (even in law), the first practice is to head to the writer of the rules, or look at precedent with increased importance.
Under this view, the ability would ideally look a bit more like this:
Smite Chaos (Su): This ability functions exactly as the paladin’s smite evil ability, with the smite effect affecting only chaotic-aligned creatures instead of evil-aligned creatures. When targeting outsiders with the chaotic subtype, chaotic-aligned aberrations, and fey, the smite deals double damage, as if using smite evil on an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil dragon, or an undead.
Since there are multiple abilities that replicate class abilities (some less clearly worded than others), the practice is to stick with the original class unless the new ability states (or adds) something different a way that has no other interpretation.
As so:Smite Chaos (Su): This ability functions exactly as the paladin’s smite evil ability, with the smite effect affecting only chaotic-aligned creatures instead of evil-aligned creatures. When targeting outsiders with the chaotic subtype, chaotic-aligned aberrations, and fey, double all numeric values (Charisma modifier to attack rolls, and double the Hellknight's level to damage rolls.
On an off-note, I wonder if Perry should be roleplayed as more of a Gaston from Beauty and the Beast. He looks swag enough to be narcissistic.
I see what you mean. The wording is indeed not precise enough to be clear. There are many instances (especially in PrC) where wording is foggy.
But I do believe the intent behind the term 'twice as effective' was a (quite convoluted) way of saying 'against these guys, deal twice as much damage to'.
Maybe so. If that is the case, it really doesn't do much for me. I await the GM's ruling.
@GM Rennai: Any loot on the sprites or His Majesty?
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@Anthuria: Noted.
I began thinking about potion portions, actually.
It is amusing to imagine that there is no difference in sizes--a giant's cauldron's worth of CLW is the same as the miniature vial used by fey.
It does seem a bit silly, but that's the way it goes. Maybe they're all the same size - giants just pop the entire bottle in their mouth and crunch it up and small creatures chug like a freshman at a kegger. XD
FYI, I'll be out and about all day and may not be able to post until later this evening/night. Please bot me as necessary.
Certainly the belt is usable? Most magical clothing and jewerly is wearable by a creature of any size.
Hey, just to let everyone know, I'll be traveling from tomorrow afternoon through Wednesday night. I might get in one more update before I head out, and another when I get in Wed night, but don't be surprised if I only post again Thursday morning. Feel free to bot me if necessary.
@Mairen - Thanks for letting us know! Safe travels!
@Perry - Did you allocate your background skill ranks? I looked expecting you to have ranks in Appraise (since, you know, cleric of Abadar), but I didn't see much of anything in terms of background skills.
@Jetta - I've never found a good ruling one way or the other on that. I'm willing to let it be usable, though. I don't necessarily like the idea of armor and weapons being re-sizeable, but clothing and jewelry seems reasonable.
By RAW armor and weapons are absolutely size-dependant, while clothing and jewelry are not. To put your mind at ease, a quote from the PRD:
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn't be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.
Cool. I'd heard argument on the matter, but it was probably related to weapons and armor more than other items. Thanks! So there's a belt of dexterity +2 up for grabs if anyone needs it, too.
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@Perry - Did you allocate your background skill ranks? I looked expecting you to have ranks in Appraise (since, you know, cleric of Abadar), but I didn't see much of anything in terms of background skills.
You're right. I forgot to account for up to three skill points, and had four empty spaces to fill in languages.
I'll address them retroactively, if you'd allow it.
That's fine, Perry.
Flight was cancelled. Looks like I'm heading out this weekend.
I forgot to account for up to three skill points, and had four empty spaces to fill in languages.
Chelaxian is not a language, by the way. You might want to pick something else.
Well, I suppose Varisian would make sense. You can't really do business in Varisia without involving the caravans. Or maybe some planar language none of us have, if we want to be practical.
I'll post tonight. Today is pretty slammed :(.
Axiomites communicate between themselves through mathematical mind-melding, and the inevitables have truespeech. I guess they don't need a language. :P
If I may suggest different starting positions: I would much rather pull the bees out and form a chokepoint, rather than file into the room to be stung. Can we be arrayed outside the hallway instead? Someone could run in and out, waving their hands to provoke them. Bees aren't too smart.
Works for me, and you'd have had a chance to suggest it before going in.
Axiomites communicate between themselves through mathematical mind-melding, and the inevitables have truespeech. I guess they don't need a language. :P01101100 01101111 01101100 01110111 01110101 01110100?
What did you say about my mother? D:
I shuffled people around a bit. Does that look good, everyone? We can still just go in if people would rather do that.
Works for me - it's actually just about how I had people arranged at first, before I decided to have you and Amund file in instead.
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What did you say about my mother? D:Axiomites communicate between themselves through mathematical mind-melding, and the inevitables have truespeech. I guess they don't need a language. :P01101100 01101111 01101100 01110111 01110101 01110100?
010101110110010101101100011011000010110000100000010010010010000001101010011 101010111001101110100001000000111010001101000011010010110111001101011001000 000111001101101000011001010010011101110011001000000110000100100000011100000 111001001101111011000100110000101100010011011000111100100100000011101110110 111101101110011001000110010101110010011001100111010101101100001000000111000 0011001010111001001110011011011110110111000100001
So there.
Tactical stuff
They're just bees, Jetta, like seriously. Gawd.
You're not the one getting stung! There's no need to take unnecessary risks. :P
You know me; as soon as the combat is decided, I'll end it so I'm more than Ok with the expedited version of it. :)
I'll just say I burned a couple magic missiles. And they were awesome!
Perry those bees are evil! I do not want to fight them again. I had a bit of bad luck last time.
I am not a tax-evader! I will file eventually.
I'm fine with getting these bees out of the way quickly. Yay for tactics!
Cinematic it is, then. I like combat as much as the next person, but where there's going to be little to no thought, strategy, or movement, it doesn't behoove any of us to wait around for it. :)
NOT MORE PUNS! D:
But yes, as Balthus implied, if it were to work it'd take some fairly specialized laborers. Most likely either druids or someone with a really high Handle Animal, especially since they're accustomed to the fey caring for them. But if you really want to make the arrangements, I can roll to see how many made stabilization checks/survived long enough for you to stabilize them. :P
Can you reveal the map to where we are now?
@Jetta - Map updated.
@Perry - Let me give you an answer when my brain isn't addled from being awake for about 28 hours now. :)
Nice work, Jetta!
It may be late to ask, but in situations where I fail a knowledge (nature) check, as with the vines, could I try a roll with Profession (gardener)?