GM Kate's Ruins of Azlant (closed) (Inactive)

Game Master Kate Baker

Oh, huh! Somehow I've never had cause to look up the Decemvirate before, didn't know what they looked like!

I seem to be missing a link somewhere.

Merry Christmas, if that is a thing you celebrate, and thank you all for being awesome players!

I got the combat rolling, but don't sweat if you're celebrating and can't post. The PBP will wait.

Bernie, I usually put the new map in position 2 in the slide deck. Or did you mean my post? It was the 50th post on the page, so I think it was easy to miss.

Sorry, I clicked the spoiler link for the Goblin song; it was worth it. Thanks for being an awesome GM!!!

Damn, meant to do something with nonlethal in this combat thanks to JT's concerns, but I forgot. Been less present on account of holiday visiting and travel and the like!

And in that holiday spirit, thanks, folks, for shepherding me through my first PbP, and being an awesome group! I don't get to play much anymore, so this has become a pretty important experience for me!

1) whaaaaaaaaaat's up with the azlanti obi wan kenobi????
2) that goblin song raises interesting questions about the nature of this island's goblin society

Andrew,

I'm thinking of adding a diary or journal that summarizes each day's (or, time span's) major events.I think this would really help organize track things too. Would this be stepping on your toes at all, or interfering with the work you're doing with the google doc folder?

Nope, go for it! I’ve fallen behind on tracking clues and the like anyways, but when I’m back on the wagon I think a diary’s a great additional source of info.

Happy end of 2017! Good horcrux hunting in 2018.

Incidentally, I am 1000% certain that this will eventually get sanctioned for PFS.

On KD, Thursty mentioned the last Ruins of Azlant book answering a very old PFS mystery, so that'll be interesting!

Ooh! Exciting! I can already imagine why it would be sanctioned, with just the info we’ve uncovered so far. Very cool!

I need, at some point, to find someone to do a cartoony drawing of Silt 'n Karl

People are starting to set up shop around town! Here are some things you can buy, and who' selling them.

Alba Divenvaar the alchemist: can make potions of ant haul, barkskin, cure light wounds, cure moderate wounds, endure elements, and touch of the sea, though she doesn't necessarily have everything prepared right now

"Father Easy" Eamon Caranth: has Craft Wondrous Item. Can make some staples like cloak of resistance and amulet of natural armor.

"Father Grouse" Kurvis Nurpico: can scribe scrolls. Will take requests for cleric spells.

Luetin Calewick: blacksmith! armor, weapons, and other metalwork.

Gonna go through the posts and make sure notes/loot sheet are up to date. Did we ever decide how to handle the goblin's spears and the like? If not, we don't really have much to sell - pretty much everyone's wearing the loot we've found. Once I'm done, though, I'll post any questions here.

I might separate the loot spreadsheet some, too. One for tracking miscellaneous stuff and things we want to sell, and one for tracking weird situational items we might want to hang onto.

I think I'd prefer dropping an extra potion here or there to making you track every last goblin spear, unless someone's put ranks in Profession (accountant).

(As Doug would say, "it's not Pathfinder without paperwork!")

Profession (quartermaster) ;)

I'll track things for now, going off the first monkey goblins we fought to determine what we get from the new ones. Also, I assume grindylow just have the small-size shortspears?

If you don't want to have to write up what each mook has, though, we can switch over to the "occasional potion" method going forward!

OK, updated the Dramatis Personae, Clues Note &c, and Inventory files.

Cash on hand: 119.1gp

Total party gp: 473.1gp (after selling goblin/grindylow loot, and without Chelish coins)
****************
Miscellaneous useful items that are not assigned to a specific PC:

• town charter
  
• swarmsuit
  
• 1lb powdered silver
  
• block of incense
  
• pouch of diamond dust worth 100gp
  
• 40 Metal arrowheads
  
• wand of color spray, 12 charges
  
• 5 potions of cure light wounds
  
• everburning torch
  
• hammer
  
• 6 pitons
  
• wand of flaming sphere, 9 charges

• Purpose Creche: Azlanti protofinder, +1 Azlanti longsword, 12" teakwood box (listen, it's cool OK :p), 1 alchemist's fire, +1 composite reliquary longbow (2Str), ring of swimming
  
• Sil'tchaak: wand of goodberry (dunno how many charges are left), ring of protection +1—I'm not sure if Silt has this or if Cedar does—, ring of ferocious action, amulet of natural armor +1, +1 spear
  
• Cedar: 1 alchemist's fire, +1 darkwood buckler, lesser talisman of good fortune, bottle of air
  
• Toby: mwk chain shirt
  
• Joli Toli: +1 mithral chain shirt

• Get information from inside clockwork spy; requires Disable Device
  
• Check out the Levin farm well the drunk choker came from?
  
• Deal with restless spirit
  
• Go back to mysterious clearing with Carver/Perrell
  
• Keep an eye on colonists or Aspis Consortium activity

Oh right!
Potential items to send to next of kin:

Oh, for what it's worth, the Chelish coins are intended to be part of your loot. They're not old enough to be valuable in a numismatic sense. You could keep a couple to start a collection though.

Sounds like we might need to wait until next level for disable device (I think I might throw a point or two in for Joli). The well sounds like a fun lead, though Joli isn’t aware of it.

You mean go down the well where the choker came from?! Why would we ever do that?! Lol

Gotta see if it goes anywhere spooky!

Because we all can deal with water? And grippli like to climb.

OK, I’m sold! Let’s do it!

Just in general: It seems like we’re taking a while to make a decision about next steps. Do I remember right that the process is "one person motions and another seconds, and we do it"? Since this is a sandbox adventure my sense is we shouldn’t wait for Kate.

Maybe we could make sure that in most posts our characters propose a next step. Though some fun narrative posts and character interactions are great too. I’m just not sure what plot hooks Joli is aware of at this stage.

Those are good points. I would say, for ease, let’s assume we’ve filled Joli in on everything, and he’s aware of all the plot hooks. I don’t want you to have to hold back because somehow Joli wouldn’t have technically known about something that came before. For example the well. Personally, I wouldn’t have thought anything of it if Joli suggested checking out the well. I guess I’m already running under the assumption that he knows what we know.

And the two people = decision rule is definitely the way for us to go.

If no one else has a light source, then Toby would head back up and try to find a torch or lantern he can borrow/buy somewhere in town.

I thought most of us learned from running The Gauntlet that one should always have a mundane torch on hand.

So much failure, lol. (I include myself in this as well. Silt doesn't have a torch).

Haven’t had a chance to catch up yet, but we do have an ever burning torch! Plus I can cast dancing lights

Chuck and I are moving, in advance of our remodel, so we're cleaning and packing today. My posts will be a little delayed!

Yay exciting/boo moving is always a hassle!

And Doug'tchaak, I am still 1000% down for a Silt/Purpose harness.

Whoa! Check it out.

Whoa! Check it out.

That's rad!

So cool!

Trying out spoilered posting so I can get this up before work!

Definitely no need to belabor things with the chokers. My brain is having a hard time imagining how to deal with live chokers on the loose. But it is intriguing.

The GM is slightly relieved. Because, yeah, chokers are just nasty, and too smart to be trained pets, but not smart enough to make treaties with or whatever. I will definitely facilitate nonviolent solutions where they make sense, though!

To streamline things going forward, could we maybe include "likeliness to be cooperative instead of murderous" as something in Knowledge checks? Not that all creatures have that inherently baked in, but it might help.

I know this is a bit stereotypically druid-y (and I don't want to play it up a lot), but Silt's probably not going to want to befriend, dimplomacize with, or be merciful to Evil Aberrations. He's also not going to be into befriending Chaotic Evil Goblins, etc.

As a player, I have always understood enemy alignments to be a clue as to how to treat them in combat. In character, there are a lot of complex ethical questions faced by colonists, but eradicating evil (in the context of Golarion's cosmology) isn't really one of them to Silt.

That makes sense to me!

At present, Purpose Creche feels like he's made an error in not approaching things in a less aggressive way. Not a big one, but he hadn't considered Joli's manner of thinking. And given his focus on learning how others feel and react, as well as the fact that he's been on the receiving end of "this person's weird, we don't want them around," he's erring on the side of "do what Joli says."

Right now we're kind of backtracking our approach to the different threats we've encountered, but I expect going forward we'll have fewer complications. If Knowledge checks reveal general habits, and if the encountered creatures' actions speak to their character, then Joli will probably have a good sense of what we're dealing with.

I totally get the narrative tension—like 70-80% of AP/module encounters are "it's a bad thing, hit it with swords!" To a certain extent, Pathfinder just doesn't assume you'll find diplomatic or nonlethal solutions to monstrous "problems."

Small example: I played a kineticist in a short Hell's Rebels campaign. Other PCs started taking a nonlethal approach, and that wasn't something we'd really discussed before. Kineticists had no way to deal nonlethal damage, and I wasn't really into repeatedly playing through the implications of lethal violence on characters' personalities. I felt kinda stuck, especially because we had a low optimization, and I was worried that if I pulled punches we'd have a TPK.

I don't think our situation here is too too similar, because we've been discussing whether or not a nonlethal approach is something we're interested in. Most of us seem on board for playing out those moral conflicts, but (and maybe it's just me) it does still feel like we haven't fully resolved how we want to do things.

I'd appreciate others' thoughts! For now, Purpose Creche might take a nonlethal approach in uncertain situations, even if it's suboptimal. I think he agrees more with Silt's recently posted idea (they're threats—if we really want to talk to them, go all out and then use magic afterwards), but it doesn't seem like we're in a place to have that conversation, plus I haven't found the in-character words to talk about it.

Sorry if all that's a bit disorganized! I do like idea of these moral conflicts, but I'm still thinking through what that means for our gameplay, the expected gameplay, and everyone's enjoyment.

I hope it’s clear that I’m not going to have Joli block on things based on the outlook he’s shared. That said, my view (with apologies if I come across as strident):

My personal feeling about the alignment system informs his approach. It makes sense to demonize, well, demons. But given the crypto-racism involved in, say, how orcs are depicted in fantasy (some might say a bestial fantasy proxy for people of color), I think we’re upholding problematic old tropes if we encourage vilifying an entire sentient race without giving them a chance to prove otherwise.

When European colonizers came to the Americas, they responded to indigenous territorial defenses by engaging in genocide. They also labeled indigenous people as aberrations, heathens, etc. Today some people defend their behavior by basically saying in more veiled terms, “Well, it might not have been nice, but basically might makes right. Colonists were there like it or not, and had a right to defend themselves even if it meant genocide.”

Now we’re a group of people playing a game that has people coming from one continent to settle new territory. Sure the natives seem to be creepy crawlies, but I personally am uncomfortable as a white person gleefully re-enacting what my ancestors did, and telling myself it’s okay because the fictional natives are chaotic evil aberrations. I think we have an opportunity to change the narrative of RPGs by pushing back against the genre’s tropes.

That said, I also don’t want to be a killjoy. I enjoy fictionally beating up on demons as much as anyone. I think it’s possible to get our fun while being a bit creative about how we go about it. And it’s an opportunity for roleplay!

OK, here are my thoughts, rough as they are:

I am not interested in playing in an AP about colonialism.

I am not interested in playing in an AP where the PCs are coded as colonialists and the aberrations/evil creatures are coded as indigenous people defending their way of life.

I am just not interested in exploring those dynamics or taking on that weighty of a subject.

I don't think this is that kind of AP, but if that's what this AP is about, then maybe we can adjust it or maybe it's just not for me.

I am interested in exploring ancient Azlant and discovering all kinds of lore and secrets and cool magic items.

In my mind Azlant is not an equivalent to new world America or some such, but is more like Atlantis, an ancient civilization that has since disappeared beneath the sea. Which is to say, not so much a place that we are colonizing as much as rediscovering.

I do like having a house on the island, but that's because I like decorating and collecting things. I think Cedar is still unsure if he can actually settle down and he is secretly thinking of becoming a Pathfinder so he can explore the world.

Cedar does not really have a reliable way to deal non-lethal damage, as he cannot yet communicate with his summoned creatures. He can certainly wait to attack though.

I think there are many reasons why Joli might prefer to do non-lethal damage or attempt to diplomacy first. As we're playing it currently though, it does seem to put the PCs on that binary of being colonialists and the monsters as being the good guys merely defending themselves. Which again, I'm just not interested in playing in that kind of AP.

What do I do with all these thoughts, or how do we move forward, I'm not entirely sure. But, I appreciate everyone for reading and opening the discussion!

Bernie,

This is something I have quietly struggled with throughout this AP, and why I tried to separate in-character and personal viewpoints above. Great job articulating the issues!

It seems like these are the kinds of issues that would be best brought up in a session 0. Also, when I say "aberration" and talk about "objective evil" in the world of Golarion, I mean the creature types or subtypes from the Paizo rule system — not labels for an "other."

This is my honest opinion: I hugely enjoy subverting trope, but I am wary of having a philosophical discussion about this every time there's a difficult encounter.

It sounds like with some modification we can achieve this outside the alignment system.

To me, a "likeliness to be cooperative instead of [being] murderous" based on creature type seems just as problematic and dangerous as the issues you bring up with the alignment system. However, I think this might be the most practical way for all of us to feel comfortable playing a colonist.

@DougCruise: I agree with that. I think overall, this should be easy to compromise on all around.

I'm not sure how I feel about doing nonlethal damage when just healing things after combat is a viable option, however. Silt, in particular, has not been very effective as a melee combatant and on the meta, trying to do nonlethal would just makes him even less fun to roll the dice with. I also want to get through the low levels as smoothly as possible and not make things mechanically harder on ourselves.

I do not think, as a character, he would do nonlethal anyway. That shouldn't mean he's a horrible murderer, either.

To me, a "likeliness to be cooperative instead of [being] murderous" based on creature type seems just as problematic and dangerous as the issues you bring up with the alignment system.

That's a good point, and one I overlooked.

My simplified viewpoint is that, when not attacked, our characters try a diplomatic route first. If that doesn't work out, we fight. I absolutely think there's merit in examining games' relationship with violence and conquest, but hearing other folks' thoughts and continuing to examine my own, I don't think that's something I want to do now, in this group.

I'm leaning more towards Cedardoug's approach: explore Azlant, discover ancient secrets, build something as characters. If that building brings us up against potential allies, let's do our best to fulfill that potential; if events make it clear it shall remain unfulfilled, so be it.

As others've said, I'm glad we're talking about these considerations, and happy to be part of a group where everyone's mature and considerate.

EDIT: w/r/t nonlethal, I lean towards Doug/Silt's view. I do think the nonlethal thing was me bringing prior experience to the discussion through the lens of frostbite's mechanical implementation, rather than primarily something anyone's pushed. I also think it's kind of a moot point if we take a diplomatic route, or that dealing nonlethal damage will be something we decide to do when appropriate situations arrise.

Hey folks,

I really appreciate that everyone is willing to discuss so openly how they are feeling about this game. There's an absolute extreme where, if the game just isn't fun, we think about doing something else (which is what happened with our Hell's Vengeance group when it stopped being fun to be evil). I don't think we're nearly there, though.

I think a big part of the issue here is the disconnect between the premise of this game for the players (go explore cool Azlanti stuff!) and the premise of the game for the PCs (colonize this island for Andoran!). The game is gradually taking you from the latter to the former, but I'm going to speed things up a bit and curate some of the encounters. This isn't PFS, and I can just leave out some of these parts that don't advance the plot and cause tension among the party.

There will certainly be combats, but I will make sure to make you all feel like you are the heroes, and not the villains.

So that being said, do you want to finish up Choker Hill or is this bit at the point of not being fun?

Thank you for being such an understanding GM!

Yeah this is a great group: we're all mature, articulate, culturally aware adults. It's almost like we're too darn smart for our own good! Overthinking stuff and whatnot :)

I can't speak for others, but I'm cool continuing with this fight, and doing all others as well. I enjoy combat as a player. I also want to feel like it's a dangerous world, and we earned any and all advancement as a team.

I’m ready to continue!