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I'm currently running an offshoot of this one. Remember the ruins mentioned in the first book around page 8? Yeah, they went there, so I had to create an entire part of the world not in the module. In 7, 4-6 hour sessions, they have not completed the material in the first book.
How did the players even hear about that before What Lies in the Dust?
Nothing in the first two books makes any reference to the Mwangi Jungle expedition.
" These two deities were the foundation of the long-dead civilization whose ruins Donatalus and Ilnerik had gone to the Mwangi Expanse to explore, and the relic’s recovery was an incredibly important find, for the Pathfinders had long sought more clues into the nature of this ancient and mysterious society. "
I was unaware that they were actually a module. Thanks for the information.
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" These two deities were the foundation of the long-dead civilization whose ruins Donatalus and Ilnerik had gone to the Mwangi Expanse to explore, and the relic’s recovery was an incredibly important find, for the Pathfinders had long sought more clues into the nature of this ancient and mysterious society. "
I was unaware that they were actually a module. Thanks for the information.
... I... what?
The ruins you quote are not the ruins he linked. He linked to where more information about what they found in those ruins are.
The section you quote from page eight isn't player information. At least not in that context - it's GM information meant for GMs to have a basic understanding of what the over-all story is so that they can - methodically and over time - disseminate that information when it becomes relevant. I mean, did they read "The Drovenge Shame" right above that which, you know, spoils the entire AP?
The ruins that you quoted above are an entire continent away!
If this was taking place in Spain (you know, in Europe, for instance, the ruins would be somewhere around the north-western segment of the Democratic Republic of the Congo in Africa.
The module he linked was part three of the AP you were going to play, and gives you more information about (but no clear details on) the ruins in question, because they were never supposed to come up other than minor background details, because they're a continent away with no one alive knowing where they are!
I mean, Map of Golarion.
On the Inner Sea map, make it large, go to the far right, and scroll down until you see the words "Arcadian Ocean" - put those words about the middle-right of the map. Scroll left ("Arcadian Ocean" will disappear, this is fine) until you see the word "Cheliax" near the top of your screen - put that in the center-top. A little to the lower left, you'll see a circle-star called "Egorian" - that's the capital of the country of Cheliax. A little further south, you'll see a tiny "Westcrown" - that's the city you're playing in. Now scroll south until you see the "Mwangi Exapanse" - that's where the two adventurers went. The middle of the fantasy-Africa jungle in an unknown locale, about three nations away.
On top of that, the segment you quoted is full of spoilers for the entire campaign. I mean, it literally tells you who the final (supposed-to-be-secret) boss of the entire AP is, like, the paragraph above that. It's even clarified that they're the end-bosses three paragraphs below that.
If you guys read the AP together for buy-in purposes, that's fine - that's your table, but that is not the AP's fault for giving player's distracting information. I mean, it can give the players distracting information, but in this case it's not the AP's fault.
That'd be like saying, "They read page 89, and decided to skip all the way to the Pathfinder lodge of Delvehaven, since they already know they need to go there!"
That said, I do empathize with players going off the rails. I think that's a bit of a problem with player buy-in, myself. It happens to us, too.
I made one comment one time in a bar and 3 sessions later the players left town to go look for them. I didn't realize the module had ruins or they were on a different continent. Thank you for the maps.
The party found ruins slightly west of Barrowood on the other side of M. River. These ruins were not mentioned in the module. The ruins were like a small town (post holes where the wooden structures used to be, small stone fences with stone pillar corners where the smaller houses used to be, the occasional stone wall that has stood the test of time), the main building was 4 stories (1 above ground, 3 below), lots of undead, crumbling parts, various traps, etc.
The players don't read the AP.
I made one comment one time in a bar and 3 sessions later the players left town to go look for them. I didn't realize the module had ruins or they were on a different continent. Thank you for the maps.
The party found ruins slightly west of Barrowood on the other side of M. River. These ruins were not mentioned in the module. The ruins were like a small town (post holes where the wooden structures used to be, small stone fences with stone pillar corners where the smaller houses used to be, the occasional stone wall that has stood the test of time), the main building was 4 stories (1 above ground, 3 below), lots of undead, crumbling parts, various traps, etc.
The players don't read the AP.
Aaaaaaaaaah! Ooooooookay. I gotcha.
I couldn't fathom how they could learn it otherwise, and the way you phrased it seemed like they read that section.
Glad the maps helped! I know they did me, when I was first starting to understand Golarion. I'd highly recommend picking up the Inner Sea World Guide as well.
That's a pretty creative and clever way of handling the ruins and crafting what they run into. One thing you could do, if you want, is actually introduce elements from the AP back into the game.
For example, if those Ruins held, say, a broken, malfunctioning, or intermittent teleportation circle to Delvehaven* (found in What Lies in Dust linked by Fyre), that could introduce them to the idea earlier, while leaving them unable to actually do anything about Delvehaven.
To help your crew get back on track, I've got a few questions:
1) have they been made "indispensable" or are your PCs "killable"?
2) if they are able to be killed, do you have pre-existing mechanisms to introduce new characters**?
3) if you do not, do you have any method by which characters can be beaten but not killed?***
4) are the PCs introduced to the Children of Westcrown? Are they part of that organization?
5) has Arael been kidnapped yet?
6) what is the motivation for your PCs? Why are they exploring these ruins and why are they playing this adventure?
7) are you going by XP or "necessary level" - if by XP, how much are these ruins worth, and how is this going to alter their level? Are you okay with that if it does? (I usually am, in our games.)
8) regardless, what are you doing about treasure? Are the ruins empty/looted (likely, if the other adventurers came here first), or will the PCs have "too much" loot? (This is fine with me in our games, but it's up to you what you feel is comfortable - your players may behave differently than mine.)
Hopefully this will help you with getting back on track later.
* Perhaps only activated for a certain amount of time at certain times, that happens to coincide with whenever they get to the bottom floor... which just so happens to fill the bottom floor, and drops them in the caves <there is no map> beneath Delvehaven near the sea of the town.
... especially if the bottom floor has lots of information about <insert villain here>'s desire to regain "what was taken from me" or something, and he ultimately learned about the Hidden Vault (from AP 2) that could only be accessed if you were invited into the Mayoral mansion (thus validating AP 2) which held information vital to successfully navigating Delvehaven - as well as noting that there seemed to be something else... something new and substantially more powerful than <insert villain here> that was lurking in Delvehaven right now. The villain might have come here from the Mwangi if you want a little more canon, as Bisby and Sivanshin (the two adventurers who retrieved the artifact - the artifact, now split into two, which are described in What Lies in Dust pg 50 and Mother of Flies pg 52) might have struggled for so long in the Mwangi, and actually shifted the ruins from that location to the forest through some magical effect - another reason for the ignoble return of those two as they somehow wasted powerful magic for little benefit <perhaps an errant "I'm tired and really wish everything was closer to home" that was granted much to their surprise...>.
** One way that you could handle this is by having your current PCs know other potential PCs, some sort of familial connection or strong friendships or other working (though possibly temporarily severed for <reasons>) relationship from before the AP started. Another is by having "spawn points" - locations in each adventure segment/whatever where a new person could be recruited from - in your ruins, perhaps there's an unconscious but stable adventurer who nearly bit it, just before they came by. When rescuing Arael, there might be another wrongly imprisoned character. For the play, maybe there's an ambitious back-up actor/Child of Westcrown that could fill in for fallen PCs; or maybe one is a prisoner in the demiplane. And so on. I think the AP might suggest some of these, but I'm pointing them out to be clear.
*** Especially when dealing with Delvehaven and a (presumably under-leveled) party, perhaps you want to add even more magical traps that aren't as out-and-out deadly as the ones presented, but are grinding nevertheless, to the point where they can't even penetrate the Yard. Maybe even the doors, windows, etc are coated with (what amounts to) walls of force that discharge painful static energy when attacked (1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d4, or whatever non-lethal electric damage, say) which repeatedly asks questions (seeking a password) that the PCs have no way of answering (and respond with a discharge whenever they get it wrong). This would be pretty clear/powerful "do not cross" lines and, if they're still not getting it, you could talk to them out of character.
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Those are some really good ideas about tying the ruins back in with the adventure. You've given me lots of ideas about how to incorporate the ruins back into the story. Thank you.
I couldn't fathom how they could learn it otherwise, and the way you To help your crew get back on track, I've got a few questions:
1) have they been made "indispensable" or are your PCs "killable"?
2) if they are able to be killed, do you have pre-existing mechanisms to introduce new characters**?
3) if you do not, do you have any method by which characters can be beaten but not killed?***
4) are the PCs introduced to the Children of Westcrown? Are they part of that organization?
5) has Arael been kidnapped yet?
6) what is the motivation for your PCs?
7) are you going by XP or "necessary level" - if by XP, how much are these ruins worth, and how is this going to alter their level? Are you okay with that if it does? (I usually am, in our games.)
8) regardless, what are you doing about treasure? Are the ruins empty/looted (likely, if the other adventurers came here first), or will the PCs have "too much" loot? (This is fine with me in our games, but it's up to you what you feel is comfortable - your players may behave differently than mine.)
Hehe. One of my players is a paladin. A few sessions ago, the paladin did the *shakes head* annoying tactic of 'lets go through town and detect evil'. Needless to say, they found the hidden base described on page 58 (The Bastards of Erebus), because Sevarn is evil and above Level 4. After clearing the bottom floor, they found Paralictor Gonville Chard and friends upstairs. He wiped the floor with the party. One player ended up dying before they retreated. When players do stupid things, like fighting encounters above ECL+3, I don't tone down fights.
If you are asking if players suddenly warp into the party as if they were always there - no. I get their race/class/general background and try to figure out where they would be and try to subtly lead the party in that direction. It is up to the party to recruit other members. They can recruit NPCs also.
In my campaigns, I try to have many factions all with different intents and objectives. Sometimes these objectives are mugging the players (nonlethal damage), stealing (sleight of hand), players being taken prisoners (player commits crime, guards after them), various roleplay, highway men, spying, various combat, traps, environmental hazards, hiring the party to do their dirty work under the guise of helping the community, etc. In this campaign specifically, the thieves guild robs people on occasion. There are three specific highway men group with their own agendas and various smaller bands that just rob people. The guards are always on the lookout for people speaking poorly of the kingdom / people breaking the laws. The gnomish population has been persecuted against and lives in the poor side of town. The children of westcrown are playing their part. Various wooden token have been showing up at various locations (thefts/murders: but the player's haven't figured out where or why yet). A local adventuring guild with various bounties and sometimes party members after they've made new characters. etc. I'm a big fan of writing out letters to hand to the players, and some organizations sending their letters in codes.
The party has been introduced a couple times and have never joined up with the Children of Westcrown. I made a map of the sewers before the first session, leaving the far edges blank. In the sewers, they went a wildly different direction from Janiven to the point that I had to roll on the random sewers chart for about an hour until they found an exit. The party helped with the release of Arael at the bridge by destroying the bridge. They ended up killing the other two prisoners riding in Arael's prisoner carriage. The paladin has something against the group and is unwilling to go into their base of operations / talk to any member. With the exception of the paladin, the main motivation of the group is greed of magical items.
The party is currently several levels higher than the adventure and would likely wipe the floor with the bastards if they ever find them. As for party wealth, I am not concerned. They will not pick up masterwork full plate off dead enemies. They will not pick up coin sacks with 100 plat off dead enemies. If it is not magical and on a dead body, they will not take it. They will search rooms for treasure though.
Is there a way to account for infamy points in addition to fame points?
Those are some really good ideas about tying the ruins back in with the adventure. You've given me lots of ideas about how to incorporate the ruins back into the story. Thank you.
Glad to! I always have things go in... unexpected directions, so I'm usually moderately adept at steering them back while still incorporating the unusual aspects of Player choice... usually.
You may also be interested in this stuff that I created as well, since you like fleshing out the world. It may help.
I couldn't fathom how they could learn it otherwise, and the way you To help your crew get back on track, I've got a few questions:
1) have they been made "indispensable" or are your PCs "killable"?
2) if they are able to be killed, do you have pre-existing mechanisms to introduce new characters**?
3) if you do not, do you have any method by which characters can be beaten but not killed?***
4) are the PCs introduced to the Children of Westcrown? Are they part of that organization?
5) has Arael been kidnapped yet?
6) what is the motivation for your PCs?
7) are you going by XP or "necessary level" - if by XP, how much are these ruins worth, and how is this going to alter their level? Are you okay with that if it does? (I usually am, in our games.)
8) regardless, what are you doing about treasure? Are the ruins empty/looted (likely, if the other adventurers came here first), or will the PCs have "too much" loot? (This is fine with me in our games, but it's up to you what you feel is comfortable - your players may behave differently than mine.)
Hehe. One of my players is a paladin. A few sessions ago, the paladin did the *shakes head* annoying tactic of 'lets go through town and detect evil'. Needless to say, they found the hidden base described on page 58 (The Bastards of Erebus), because Sevarn is evil and above Level 4. After clearing the bottom floor, they found Paralictor Gonville Chard and friends upstairs. He wiped the floor with the party. One player ended up dying before they retreated. When players do stupid things, like fighting encounters above ECL+3, I don't tone down fights.
Okay, cool. That way I know what we're working with.
Some GMs have "extra special" PCs (like I did with this one) that, frankly, aren't easily replaced or raised for various reasons, so I was mostly trying to ascertain what kind of paradigm we were working with.
If you are asking if players suddenly warp into the party as if they were always there - no. I get their race/class/general background and try to figure out where they would be and try to subtly lead the party in that direction. It is up to the party to recruit other members. They can recruit NPCs also.
Cool: you have a number of methods of both increasing party size and integrating them. Nice. That's pretty much all I was trying to establish. Do the NPCs become GMPCs?
(Again, depending on games, many of mine do by default - i.e. they're recruited, but left to me to run. Thus, I see no shame in this.)In my campaigns, I try to have many factions all with different intents and objectives. Sometimes these objectives are mugging the players (nonlethal damage), stealing (sleight of hand), players being taken prisoners (player commits crime, guards after them), various roleplay, highway men, spying, various combat, traps, environmental hazards, hiring the party to do their dirty work under the guise of helping the community, etc. In this campaign specifically, the thieves guild robs people on occasion. There are three specific highway men group with their own agendas and various smaller bands that just rob people. The guards are always on the lookout for people speaking poorly of the kingdom / people breaking the laws. The gnomish population has been persecuted against and lives in the poor side of town. The children of westcrown are playing their part. Various wooden token have been showing up at various locations (thefts/murders: but the player's haven't figured out where or why yet). A local adventuring guild with various bounties and sometimes party members after they've made new characters. etc. I'm a big fan of writing out letters to hand to the players, and some organizations sending their letters in codes.
Nice. Sounds like very excellent work all-round.
You may also be interested in handling Halflings in general as well. They're generally the "third-class citizens" in Cheliax - Halflings are generally either slaves or thieves or both... or Freedom Fighters.
In any event, I like what you've done.
I'm not as big a prop-guy because, unfortunately, I run out of time. A toddler does that. :)
The party has been introduced a couple times and have never joined up with the Children of Westcrown. I made a map of the sewers before the first session, leaving the far edges blank. In the sewers, they went a wildly different direction from Janiven to the point that I had to roll on the random sewers chart for about an hour until they found an exit. The party helped with the release of Arael at the bridge by destroying the bridge. They ended up killing the other two prisoners riding in Arael's prisoner carriage. The paladin has something against the group and is unwilling to go into their base of operations / talk to any member. With the exception of the paladin, the main motivation of the group is greed of magical items.
Heh, wow.
Do you know what the Paladin's beef is? That might be able to be solved out-of-character or with divinely-inspired dreams. What deity does he follow?
As far as the others go... huh, yeah, you're definitely having problems with Player Buy-in. That's a hard row to hoe. For those guys, you might want to talk other character motivation... out of character. Either that, or, pretty soon, you're going to have to start making ever-larger changes to the system.
One possible idea is that of the Shadowhunters - I mention them a little in my linked thread up there, so you could run them as you like. They might be more palatable to the paladin. Also interesting
The party is currently several levels higher than the adventure and would likely wipe the floor with the bastards if they ever find them. As for party wealth, I am not concerned. They will not pick up masterwork full plate off dead enemies. They will not pick up coin sacks with 100 plat off dead enemies. If it is not magical and on a dead body, they will not take it. They will search rooms for treasure though.
... I have to say, your group is... very unique in that regard.
Huh.
One thing you might want to give out is a few divination-themed items. Maybe an Oracle-style thing or two. Often GMs don't like divination effects because they mess with game balance.
But if, say, you place a lawful good intelligent item (with empathy, telepathy <contact>, read magic, read languages <range touch>) that only functions for a group of lawful-good revolutionaries <see requirements> (maybe also makes the area 10 degrees cooler, only functions above freezing temperatures, and/or permanently marks the bearer with a glowing tattoo of a particular Lawful Good deity of your choice... probably Iomadae*... that stuns the character for 1d4 rounds after using it and causes the bearers eyes to be blurry for 1d4 minutes thereafter <see drawbacks>**) capable of using augury, clairaudience/clairvoyance, and see alignment at will and is constantly under a detect charm, detect the faithful, detect relations, detect undead, detect thoughts, seek thoughts, discern lies, and see invisibility effects***. Three times per day each it can share memory and share senses. Once per two days it can divination, and once per week it can commune. Add something like 10 ranks in knowledge (religion) and one or two other knowledge skills the players don't have (or one they do to make it "worldly")**** and the Special Purpose: "Defend the servants and interests of a specific deity" (the powers you've given it are covered) and you've got a phenomenal PLOT ITEM (tm) that they'd generally love on principle and suddenly gives them great necessity to join with a group... of which they have several options to choose from.
The point isn't to give them an Omega Item of Awesome. It's to give them a useful item of PLOT. Something seem contrived? Ask the stone! Something seem unlikely? Ask the stone! One of the nice things is that you can actually just arbitrate what the stone "knows" or "doesn't know" and how much it shares.
* Incidentally, this "drawback" could serve as a boon, too, as the character might no longer need a holy symbol, if they otherwise would. Also, I'm guessing the paladin is of Iomadae. If not, it could be some other deity. Perhaps the Paladin's deity.
** These drawbacks make the item nearly worthless on the market, but invaluable to, say, a group that follow a particular theme that you want to work with. You might even question your players out of character about what could get them motivated before secretly designing this item. I've also modified some of the drawbacks in order to fit with the theme. Effectively, it marks you for its deity, and the divine connection it holds is so great as to be somewhat overwhelming to the mind and senses.***
*** You'll note that I didn't give the item any senses. This is on purpose. It's effectively blind except for invisible/ethereal creatures or lies that are nearby or when it uses clairaudience/clairvoyance or see alignment. It is very much an intelligence of the spirit and mind, and not of the visual world, making it somewhat alien. All of this also makes it "not an item you use while adventuring in the sewers". Of course, you can play around with this concept as you will. The Uncaring "drawback" under Additional (unofficial) Intelligent Item Properties on the bottom of the Intelligent Items might help too. Similarly, dropping one or two of the abilities will drop the price dramatically.
**** These skills are basically your way of helping your party out. It doesn't even need to have a high intelligence - in fact, that's preferable, as a bonus of +13 (10 ranks + class skill bonus) or even just a +10 is more than enough. Also, a great stat-spread would be something like INT 10, WIS 14, CHA 19, with 5 ranks in diplomacy as well and a caster level of 9. If it's charged, and each use of any ability costs 1 charge, and you add the recharging special ability (found at the bottom of the Intelligent Item link), it turns out around... a theoretical 137,000 gold piece value (good luck finding a buyer; it's 136,846 gold and 5 copper to be exact) and a +48 ego modifier - at least presuming my calculations were correct. I'd personally ad-hoc drop the ego modifier to something more manageable, and note that you effectively will not find a buyer - the only people that would be able to use it wouldn't be able to afford it. Also, feel free to put some other limits on the otherwise noted at will abilities. 4/day or 3/day will drop that price down rapidly. If it's not charged, you're looking at closer to 500k price tag (somewhere around 479k) and +50 ego modifier instead of +48. Feel free to drop some of the abilities - that'd lower the price and ego rapidly (-2 per spell-like it's missing, and around 3k-12k for first level spell effects <shorter duration costs more>, and it only drops more rapidly from there).
Is there a way to account for infamy points in addition to fame points?
If it were me, I'd keep a separate track and keep it all under "fame", but note how much of that "fame" was infamy (something they can decrease over time by good deeds and general good name).
Also, note that the Fame system is broken - it is practically if not completely impossible to get the "best ending". I don't remember if I posted all of my alternate ideas here or not. I'll have to look into them. I'm not sure when, though.
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Family always takes priority to gaming :)
I really like the link. The goblins become an actual threat. The bands become more realistic. I already did a slight increase to my shadow beasts to make them more scary - I like how you did yours also. Your ideas are creative. If the party keeps ignoring problems in town, the goblins are going make a push for power - the party returns to see smoke over the town. Love it.
I personally believe we GMs should maximize freedom of our players, so while the plot device would work in most game - it would feel wrong in mine. I feel bad that you spent so much time coming up with that intelligent item :(. I've never heard the term GMPC, but it sounds right. Cohorts are also GMPCs - because one of my players *cough* Nick *cough* used cohorts as magic item creators and would sit them in town to create his gear, while everyone else adventured.
I put the Children of Westcrown's hideout in a shrine to Sarenrae. A lot of the children are dressed as followers sitting in the shrine listening to the sermons (Fiosa is preaching) (a convincing lie for anyone who enters), while the leaders are through a door and down a set of stairs in the back to plan and plot future actions. The paladin is a follower of Pharasma and, purely through roleplaying, believes he will be struck down with lightning if he enters the shrine. The leaders do not discuss their plots anywhere other than the basement, because the guards are always listening and looking for people who would betray the kingdom. The guards have arrested people on the streets for speaking ill towards the government in front of the party. Due to events like this, the leaders of the resistance are way more cautious about saving face in public.
Family always takes priority to gaming :)
Yes! ... like replying to this thread.
I really like the link. The goblins become an actual threat. The bands become more realistic. I already did a slight increase to my shadow beasts to make them more scary - I like how you did yours also. Your ideas are creative. If the party keeps ignoring problems in town, the goblins are going make a push for power - the party returns to see smoke over the town. Love it.
Cool! Glad you like it. Mostly I post this stuff just so other people can have better games (as it doesn't help me - I've already run that part), so it's always good to hear that someone might be able to use it. :)
I personally believe we GMs should maximize freedom of our players, so while the plot device would work in most game - it would feel wrong in mine. I feel bad that you spent so much time coming up with that intelligent item :(. I've never heard the term GMPC, but it sounds right. Cohorts are also GMPCs - because one of my players *cough* Nick *cough* used cohorts as magic item creators and would sit them in town to create his gear, while everyone else adventured.
I tend to feel that way as well, though once in this adventure, I looked at a player and said, "Okay, we can do this - and it's really fine if you want to -, but I'm letting you know that the written part of the AP will end right here if you do so - everything after that will just be me winging it." which made them change their minds. I felt badly at the time because I wanted to let them do what they wanted, but at the time I couldn't fathom a way to continue the written AP and allow them to enact their plan (and they really wanted to continue the written AP, too). Extra sadly, by this point, I've come up with five different ways of doing so, but at the time I just couldn't. Ah, well. Regrets, eh?
In any event, lots of people are very against GMPCs - basically extra party members crafted by the GM for purpose of rounding out the party. Part of this is because some GMs use these in heavy-handed methods, while others use them to be self-aggrandizing. In either case, they harm the fun for the players. Some GMs don't like them just because it's extra work - right now in my Carrion Crown AP that I'm running, the party has been expanded to twelve by way of recruitment of NPCs... turning them into GMPCs. I've got to run eight characters in addition to all the monsters and other things. Heh.
But anyway, don't feel bad about the intelligent item thing. Most of that was intuitive to me - the time-consuming part was the linking and pricing/ego part (which I usually ignore for my home games, 'cause they're not for PF), but it was fun figuring all that out, and modifying it to be able to be a "not-artifact" powered item even with all that stuff. :)
Again, the point isn't necessarily to drive them along rails, but to enable them to get back on track (and have in-character reason to do so)... if they want to. (For that reason, the Ego on my intelligent items is rarely more than 5.)
I put the Children of Westcrown's hideout in a shrine to Sarenrae. A lot of the children are dressed as followers sitting in the shrine listening to the sermons (Fiosa is preaching) (a convincing lie for anyone who enters), while the leaders are through a door and down a set of stairs in the back to plan and plot future actions. The paladin is a follower of Pharasma and, purely through roleplaying, believes he will be struck down with lightning if he enters the shrine. The leaders do not discuss their plots anywhere other than the basement, because the guards are always listening and looking for people who would betray the kingdom. The guards have arrested people on the streets for speaking ill towards the government in front of the party. Due to events like this, the leaders of the resistance are way more cautious about saving face in public.
Ah, gotcha. If you are interested in getting them together, it's possible that the Children have been working on getting a second "safe place" they can be, which would allow the PCs to talk to them without fear.
The fact that he's a paladin of Pharasma is... interesting, and sounds very difficult to me. A required lawful good (plus restrictions) servant of a true neutral deity... oof. Again, sounds tough, but if you're all enjoying, more power too you!
One other idea that might help get them "into it" more (thrusting them into the role of heroes) is, over time, as the criminals get increasingly bold, the guards slowly disappear due to injury and illness - the violence is literally too much for the (non-spontaneous) healing of the church of Asmodeus to keep up with (and they certainly aren't going to do so for free - everything has a price). This forces the PCs to step forward and be the heroes (unless they just cut and run).
And I'm glad you like it, Robert!
lol
Two gaming sessions, the goblins decide to make a push for power. What does my party do? They start looting houses... The alchemist goes to a rich person's garden to harvest alchemy components.
I... they... uh... the paladin okay with that?
The party split up for a bit. The paladin went off to check on the Children of Westcrown....When he got back 10 minutes later, the party wasn't at the meeting spot.
Okay then. Keep us posted!
If you want to see how awesome Council of Thieves can be, check out this PBP (link to first page). The 3 DMs have been geniuses, to the point that after this was one of the first 3 Pathfinder Adventure PBPs that I stumbled into, I have been spoiled for all the others. Not only that, but each successive DM took over in a way such that if you didn't notice the changes in their names/avatars or the OOC messages about interruptions in service (and recovery from these), you would think they were the same DM. Some events were rearranged, as revealed only by comparison of said events to the order of summaries of the Pathfinder Adventured Path -- if you didn't get spoilers by reading these or the Pathfinder Adventure Path itself, you wouldn't know that any rearrangement had occurred, and it is impossible to tell whether this was by DM planning all along, or an accident resulting from unexpected events in the campaign. Of course, it didn't hurt that the players/PCs have been a blast too!
The campaign starts out with the feel of regular (if not exactly average) citizens that have regular jobs banding together to try to save their city from Infernal (and other) corruption. And it has maintained that feel, even as the campaign has proceeded into the late stages. Note that if you get into the later pages of the PBP, you'll find some very interesting DMPCs; the names of a subset of them are listed on the (apparently somewhat out of date) Campaign Info page of this PBP, under Other party-connected NPCs.
I'll be honest. I don't buy gaming resources any more. I think the Council of Thieves AP is very interesting, but I don't need all this stuff to make a good adventure. This goes for most PF resources, not just CoTs.
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We are currently playing the COT series and as a player I am enjoying it a lot. What our GM did was to have our back story involve either being from Westcrown or having some tie into it. One player is a minor noble of the Nolman family and has seen enough of the crime and corruption. He has since became a Hell knight of the Scourge. This allows him to do things to offset the normal dealings in Westcrown and stop said corruption. Another character is a famous actor . He played the part of Larazad of coarse and too wants to rid the city of the shadows so more plays can be set and more fame can be gained. Another player is from Westcrown as well and began as a bartender/cleric of Cayden. He too wants the nights to return to normal and corruption to end so he can make more profits. I am playing a character that took the trait chelish noble and lost nobility feat which let me with my GM's permission be a direct descendent of Sheraya Solistar, the last Imperial Princess. My character does not truly yet know her royal bloodline and has been a fun to RP her trying to gain clues. She just recently found out her surname of Solistar as Sheraya is her grandmother whom she was named after but nothing but a tarnished signet ring with many flaws was passed down . She bore a son with the guide that she was to go on a mission with into the Tusk mountains. My character is a oracle and follower of Desna whom has lead her to Westcrown . The GM also as far as I know has been using Raynulf's works to further enhance our game. He has also added little side things that shine a light on each of our chars at different times . The actor who is a medium ( what better way to be over the top in your roles but being able to channel actual spirits of the dead whom lived that type of life) has found a cursed item highly magical that actually belonged to one of the spirits he has summoned so we are seeking out info on it . The noble has passed the trial of the hell knight by fighting a devil mono au mono in the devil dome part of it and recently had his ceremony. We are all avid RP players so by immersing our characters into the woven threads of cheliax the GM hasn't had to really coerce us to trying to help the city . I am unsure where it all ends but I am having a blast .. My thoughts is have your players make good back stories that involve them somehow in Westcrown and IMOP have them play good or neautrla type chars with good tendencies at least.
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To go back to the original topic, I think another thing that hurt CoT for a long time is the fact that for many players it often took the place of other more niche APs that didn't exist yet, namely Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance.
I know some people tried playing CoT as though it were either of these games (either as a CG rebellion story to liberate an oppressed city, or as an evil campaign where you could crush troublemakers with an iron fist), and while it does have aspects of both, it's kind of a middle road that doesn't commit fully to either of those thematics. As such people expecting the AP to be one or the other both found themselves disappointed.
I'd mostly chalk that up to Pathfinder still being young and trying to get its footing, so doing niche adventures like what we've been getting in later years wasn't really something they were thinking of pursuing just yet, but that's purely speculation on my part.
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To go back to the original topic, I think another thing that hurt CoT for a long time is the fact that for many players it often took the place of other more niche APs that didn't exist yet, namely Hell's Rebels and Hell's Vengeance.
I know some people tried playing CoT as though it were either of these games (either as a CG rebellion story to liberate an oppressed city, or as an evil campaign where you could crush troublemakers with an iron fist), and while it does have aspects of both, it's kind of a middle road that doesn't commit fully to either of those thematics. As such people expecting the AP to be one or the other both found themselves disappointed.
I'd mostly chalk that up to Pathfinder still being young and trying to get its footing, so doing niche adventures like what we've been getting in later years wasn't really something they were thinking of pursuing just yet, but that's purely speculation on my part.
it was also the first "pathfinder" AP. the previous 4 had been written as 3.5