Well, it does make this relatively straightforward encounter a little more interesting. We appreciate Hrolf playing along.
Sorry my posts have been sparse lately. I've had a hectic couple of weeks, without much time or energy left over for posting. Things are getting back to normal now.
How would we feel about a verbal duel, Carver vs Fenna?
Not right now I think. But, if Fenna can't keep the peace it might be a good option later. I'd love to try out the system and see how it works.
Social campaigns are by far my favorite, so the more drama the better as far as I'm concerned!
I think Urram has already upped the ante somewhat! :)
Great idea at some point though, I want to play with these rules some too!
You need the Infusion Alchemist Discovery to give an extract to someone else.
This is what I get for playing a class with rules I've never used before... next level then.
Kari is ready to continue our advance into the caves.
Likewise :)
I think losing initiative here could be fatal. :(
We have to make sure we're not adjacent to each other. We can't afford to have him Cleave again.
Fenna could try a Grease spell on the Chief's spear. It would be all or nothing, but we could be looking at a TPK otherwise.
Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if we're done for. We're too fragile to handle this already injured from previous fights. This guy is hitting like a truck, and we barely managed 2 regular ones earlier.
Kari had healed up to full, but he still took her down to 8 HP with one blow. :(
@GM Clockwork: Does the chief have reach? Does he get a free trip attempt when he hits with the spear as well?
looks like I got that wrong, he doesn't have reach, so only Urram would have taken that hit. You may change your action if you like, Kari.
Yep, We're done. There are now more of them than us, they have more HP than we do, and they hit harder than we do. This is a TPK in the making.
I have to say I've come to hate gestalt builds. I have lots more options that I can't ever use due to limits on actions per round. I'll choose a regular, non-gestalt party over it any day.
Did Urram realize he was going to provoke an AoO? With the damage he just took, he's dead (-con score).
Well, thanks to some lucky rolls, you've ended up victorious. As Fenna has stated though, it seems that gestalt is just no match for being on the low end of action economy. That, and my inability to fudge a roll in a critical moment, as I do at my table games.
While Brinetooth specifically was a difficult monster, I think this dungeon makes it evident that the addition of Urram was an undercorrection of the same issue we had before. If you're all willing to stick with the game, I think I'd like to try something else: moving you all to level 4 instead of 3. I'm don't KNOW that it will be enough, but I'm willing to keep RoA going if you all are.
This AP seems to have a fair number of enemies that attack the PCs action economy: Free grab attacks, free trip attempts.
It also didn't help that Hrolf couldn't really come along with us to the caves.
Oh I certainly don't want to shut down the campaign or anything like that. There is a combat problem though. I guess the most general description I can give of it is a lack of party resilience.
We do very well when we do well, but little things like losing initiative (in this encounter) or a round of bad dice rolls will throw things into desperate straights very quickly. The small party size magnifies those individual little things I think. With a standard party size of 5 or 6 (I rarely see a party of 4), the larger number of characters acting smooth out those kinds of things. One or two characters might have a bad round, but the others don't. The party as a whole tends to have lots of "average" rounds as a result. Our situation is much more swingy between good and bad.
Partially I think it's gestalt builds look better on paper than in practice. I've been very surprised at how difficult it is to have Fenna do anything but swing a sword in fights. Since Fenna and Kari especially are also the front line, there's little opportunity to do something like casting grease to disarm an opponent (I think the grindylow was tripping with the spear?) It's just too risky to give up 1/3 of the attacks in a round to cast a spell, especially since it would usually mean trying to disengage from melee.
That's why we're almost always entering combat without any buffs going. Maybe my memory is faulty on this, but most of the fights have sprung suddenly and at close quarters. At low levels we don't have the spell per day or spell duration to put up buffs and let them run in case we need them later. On the other hand, we pretty much have to buff before the fight or do without.
I think a bump in level could help. A few more HP and a little better on attacks will make a round or two of bad dice less damaging. Things will get better at higher levels too. At 7th Fenna can start a performance as a move action, and at 13 as a swift. That will help her out immensely.
Sorry that got longer than I intended.
Yes, not having Hrolf hurt too.
And yes, lots of the creatures have weird abilities like grab, trip, acid spit,
and those fish with slowing. It makes things nastier.
At least it's not Iron Gods, where everything has DR, touch attack weapons abound, and you cannot get by without a good FORT save!
I played a Heavens Shaman in Iron Gods. In Book 1 almost everything is immune to mind affecting; I think my Color Spray was useful once. One of our party members also got 8 con drain from a reactor leak!
I was trying to 5ft step while prone - which I thought was a thing... clearly this is not the case! :D
Things will get better in a bit - Urram is going crafty so with some time and enough resources I'm quite happy to bring massive amounts of Ioun Stones/other items/golems with us later on :)
Not having Hrolf is big I agree - perhaps we need to look into a way of getting him swimming more regularly?
In this fight we fell foul of Urram's good nature - casting a buff or two while talking would have been the most 'sensible' thing to do, but he was genuinely considering a diplomatic solution... *roll eyes!*
Yeah, I was under the impression that there might be some sort of deal with the grindylows in the offing. Casting spells is obvious and generally not the sort of thing that's construed as friendly in those sorts of situations.
I run the AP so I know full well that Brinetooth is liable to kill a party - but Urram doesn't and I was wondering if our esteemed GM was goin to allow diplomacy so...
I think as a party, given a round or two to buff in, we'll be monsters. We just need that time - Urram in particular was built as a support character, with spells and languages galore, any combat where he's at the front something went wrong!
With Evolved Companion (Gills) on Hrolf and Urram having a wider range of spells to work with I think we'll do fine - as a suggestion Fenna, would it be worth you becoming an archaeologist? Less buffs for the rest of us - but it'll be easier for you to be a combatant and less split between buffs and combat since AL is swift. :)
It's not a bad idea at all Urram. If I remember correctly I used the Studious Librarian archetype because it allows some arcane casting from scrolls and spell books, which would add some flexibility in the absence of a full arcane caster. But that need no longer exists because we have an arcane caster now.
Archaeologist is just about my favorite archetype in the game, and it would probably mesh much better with Slayer. Between the two it's almost like getting Rogue (minus the new unchained stuff) as a free third class.
Both Archaeologist's Luck and Studied Target on a full BAB character would be beastly.
Well you might have an arcane caster... GM still hasn't said if I'm dead or not... Perhaps Urram has a twin brother :D
I think it's fine that we fudge the 2 or 3 hit points that killed Urram for the sake of consistency, in the name of experimentation. Unless you're stuck on wanting a new PC, then Urram lives. Let's try things a level ahead of the book and see how the numbers look.
When do you want us to level up?
Now, go straight to 4. I'll have an update soon, but I want to adjust up the treasure from this encounter to match the higher WBL
Additionally, I'd say some mechanical adjustments are fine. An archaeologist isn't terribly far off from a librarian in a flavor sense.
He lives! And rises two levels... nearly dying is apparently good for the soul! :D
Hmm, okay. I've gone back through to look at everything again and I'd like to get your opinions on a couple of things. I'm suffering from some choice paralysis.
First, Studious Librarian vs Archaeologist: Archaeologist's Luck is a swift action to activate from the get-go. It' also a blanket effect that affects combat rolls, skill checks, and saves. Regular performance goes from standard action to move action at 7th, then to a swift action at 13th.
Studied Target from Slayer is a move action that goes to swift action at 7th. So, by 7th level I can activate both in a single round using a swift and move action. At that point there isn't actually any improvement either way. I still need to use a move action at 7th since there's only one swift action per round.
The bonuses for both are the same since I won't have the Fate's Favored trait to get the extra +1 to Archaeologist's Luck. It is also not shared like regular performance. I can get the traps/disable device abilities from Slayer, but they aren't quite as good. It's not a huge difference though.
What Studious Librarian will give at 6th level is the ability to cast a spell from wizard/witch/bard spell list from a spell book or scroll without consuming it once per day. I get +1 per day every 4 levels after that. It doesn't increase spells per day and it must be of a level Fenna can cast.
So, there are some nice things about Archaeologist, but the real trade is a swift action Luck right now or the extra spell casting versatility.
One more thing about Archaeologist's Luck is that RAW Fenna will get no extra rounds per level. She'll have the starting 4+3 rounds for CHA. Russ Taylor, the creator of the archetype has an unofficial errata on the subject HERE But getting extra rounds/level would require GM permission.
Which do you think is the better choice?
Second thing, Weapon choices: I had originally intended to enchant the thorn blade and leaf blade and take critical feats. they have 18-20 crit range and also both give +2 to confirm crits. I'd need to get them enchanted as time goes on.
But now I have the +1 gladius, which is a light weapon, 19-20 crit range. I could pair it with a second gladius which makes Weapon Focus better, and it would save money. There would be no point in taking Improved Critical, etc. though. On the other hand I could take Piranha Strike with them (the thorn blade is not a light melee weapon so I can't take it with the elven blades.)
So the choice there is better crits for more, less reliable damage vs a smaller amount of steady damage. Keep in mind I will have some sneak attack dice from Slayer when I can set it up.
Ha! Glad we didn't lose you Urram!
Fundamentally I can cover most spellcasting - not divine sure, but I cast off the sorceror/wizard list, and then again from the alchemist so I wouldn't worry hugely over those extra spells, I should be able to handle that.
What I think we need is reliability - at the moment Kari does a great job with the kinetic blade/blast but you and I, Fenna, aren't always doing a great job of backing her up! So that's where we need to be.
Urram is not, and never will be, a frontline fighter. I can offer loads of magic and some serious crafting but I'm never going to be much use at hitting things - hence the only weapon I carry is a reach one. I'd say Archaeologist is better for Fenna because of this - it'll make you a more reliable combatant, and one who can jump in more easily. Also gets you back a slayer talent which can go into something else for versitility - maybe a combat style to pick up another TWF feat?
Even without extra rounds (and I've never seen a DM who didn't allow it) Lingering Performance does apply to AL - so you could study beforehand (which isn't 1/day etc) then AL in round one for lots of buffs. Extra Traits could pick you up Fates' Favoured as well, or retrain a current feat to get it... Urram will be able to make other luck items eventually so it should be a good investment.
As to weapons - I'd be tempted by the paired gladius, Urram could give them agile in time and that you could generally be quite efficient that way, certainly easier than having one light and one non-light. Improved crit might still be worthwhile 17-20 isn't anything to sneeze at.
Basically I think you're best as a self-buffing two weapon fighting machine. That way we have Kari who does single, big hits, Fenna doing lots of hits with many bonuses (SA, AL and Studied is going to add up fast!) and Urram behind them with support (both item crafting and spells).
My $0.02.
Hey GM - a question/suggestion for you.
Swift Alchemy: At 4th level, an investigator can create alchemical items with astounding speed. It takes an investigator half the normal amount of time to create alchemical items. He can also apply poison to a weapon as a move action instead of a standard action.
I get this ability at 4th level, and it makes very little sense since I traded Alchemy for gadgetry and the whole point of being a scavenger is that he makes clockwork, not alchemical items. Therefore I propose changing it to...
Swift Gadgetry: At 4th level, an investigator can create clockwork items with astounding speed. It takes an investigator half the normal amount of time to create clockwork items.He can also apply poison to a weapon as a move action instead of a standard action.
So changing the bonus to the relevant type of object. Since clockwork objects are, potentially, more than one use I suggest simply dropping the section about poison.
Do you think this is reasonable? I'm doing it purely for character reasons - Urram isn't an alchemist, so why should he suddenly get really good at it?
Kari 2nd>4th highlights:
+2 1st lvl spells/day
+3 2nd lvl spells/day
+1 1st lvl spells known (liberating command)
+4 2nd lvl spells known (lesser restoration-normal, barkskin-mystery, levitate-haunted curse, minor image-haunted curse)
Revelation: Nature's Whispers: Charisma, instead of Dexterity, to AC and CMD.
Natural Divination increases to 2 uses/day.
Kinetic Blast: increases to +8 to hit, 2d6+7 damage
Infusion Wild Talent (she won't be able to use this until she gets infusion specialization at 5th lvl):
Extended Range
Element(s) universal; Type form infusion; Level 1; Burn 1
Associated Blasts any
Saving Throw none
Your kinetic blast can strike any target within 120 feet.
Utility Wild Talent: Greater Skilled Kineticist (add 1/2 lvl to Perception, may use Knowledge Nature to ID water elementals).
Feat: Precise Shot
Adventuring Skill ranks:
+1 Acrobatics
+3 Diplomacy
+1 Heal
+1 Knowledge Planes
+1 Knowledge Religion
+2 Perception
+1 Sense Motive
+1 Spellcraft
Background Skill ranks:
+2 Knowledge History
+2 Linguistics (Aquan, Azlanti)
FCB: +2 HP
@Fenna I think it's fine to add the extra rounds per level, if that helps you decide. With regard to weapons, keep in mind that the feat tax rules allow Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to apply to an entire group of weapons from the fighter's weapon group list
@UrramIt's fine to change over that skill and feature from alchemy to clockwork.
Awesome - Urram is ready then.
Also as a heads up, I'm hoping to go into Ioun Angel. It was written in 3.5 which is why it has the 8 skill ranks in UMD as a prerequisite. Are you ok with lowering it to 5 to match with Pathfinder's skill system? :)
Ioun Angel won't work, not because of the skill ranks, but because it is third party.
:'( Guess I'll just have to make all the Ioun Stones the normal way :(
Kari wouldn't mind having the ring of ferocious action, since she can't use kinetic blade when she's staggered (until lvl 5).
Perhaps the rusted lock can be picked if a grease spell is cast on it. Trying to get the chest out through the water seems impractical.
Give me a minute! :D
FWIW, Kari can cast Barkskin (Nature Mystery Spell) on others, if that changes anyone's calculations about the Amulet of Natural Armor.
Well it's been a crazy week so I've just now managed to get a gameplay post up.
I'll try to have the character sheet finished up this weekend.
Thanks for the input. I will go ahead and switch to Archaeologist. I seems like the better option to me as well, but it's a close call and I figured I'd mention what the trades would be before deciding.
I think I will plan on sticking to the gladii. Since we're using the "elephant in the room" rules, I won't need the Agile enchantment. I could get Keen instead.
Anyone have any experience with Snake Style? I might be interested in just the first feat of the chain since Fenna is limited to light armor. I'd have to pick up Improved Unarmed Strike, but I should cover B-type damage anyway, and gladius covers S and P both. Feats are less of an issue with Luck rather than Performance. There are few feats related to Luck other than Lingering Performance, which I was planning on taking at 3rd level anyway. Frees me up some.
Of the new magic items, only the Amulet is interesting to Fenna, but it's not a big deal if someone else wants it.
I want to stay OUT of combat (plus I think the DM is hinting that I should have the spear...) so by all means have the amulet Fenna.
Anyone mind if I take the spear? It'll boost my damage.... *gulp*
Kari has no interest in the spear; she uses kinetic blade and kinetic blast.
Whew! It was quite an overhaul to get things changed around and leveled up but I think I'm finished. I'll need to check through for mistakes and omissions again after letting it sit for a day or two, but I think it's all correct.
Fenna Level 4
+1 DEX
+2 BAB
+18 HP
+1 FORT, REF, WILL
Feat: Lingering Performance (I also added the "free" feats EitR Rules give to the sheet since I forget about those options without them on there as a reference)
Arachaeologist:
Luck (10 Rounds/Day) I went with the archetype developer's suggestion of 1 extra round/level.
Clever Explorer
Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense
Rogue Talent (4th Level): Trap Spotter
Slayer:
Slayer Talent (2nd Level): Two Weapon Fighting
Slayer Talent (4th Level): Rapid Shot
Sneak Attack 1d6
Spells:
(0) Dancing Lights
(1) Expeditious Retreat, Incessant Buzzing
(2) Glitterdust, Invisibility
I'm also using 1 level of Fenna's Bard Favored Class Bonus (Human which she qualifies for) to pick up Heightened Awareness.
Skills (Adventuring): +1 Diplomacy, Perception, Climb, Survival, Spellcraft, Stealth, Swim, K Nature
+2 Disable Device, UMD, Sense Motive
Skills (Background): +1 Sleight of Hand, K Geography, Linguistics (Aquan), Perform (String)
Some quick comments on Fenna's changes.
Urram still leads Fenna on Disable Device checks. Archaeologist doesn't make it a class skill. She also won't be able to disarm magical traps until 6th level.
Trap Spotter gives Fenna a passive perception check if she's within 10' of a trap. You'll need to make that roll GM Clockwork. Do you want me to add it to my avatar banner information to make it easier to remember?
Since Weapon Focus now covers Fighter Weapon Groups, Fenna doesn't even need to find a second Gladius. She already has a MWK Machete, which is in the same group. When she takes it as her next rogue talent both of them will be covered by it.
@Fenna: It's up to you, but I tend to pick up Glitterdust a little later as a Bard (hopefully invisible enemies aren't going to be a thing at low levels. Mirror Image is a great defensive spell that can prevent a lot of damage. I'm also partial to Cat's Grace (+2 to hit, damage and AC for a Dex based character).