Fantastic Beasts and Where To Kill Them (Inactive)

Game Master Storm Dragon

Discussion thread here. Tentative character creation:

-Level 8

-Choose your own stats, I don't particular care what you have.

-Gestalt

-Mythic Tier 1 for the purpose of qualifying for Mythic Feats and Talents. You gain none of the core Mythic Tier abilities nor do you choose a Mythic Path and gain the abilities of such, though you may choose Talents from any Path. You may choose a single Mythic Talent, to be approved by me.

-Any material allowed on a case by case basis but any Paizo and Dreamscarred Press generally allowed. Other third party will be under stricter scrutiny by me, and will MOST likely be rejected, but feel free to ask.

Gear: We will be using a form of automatic bonus progression that includes all of the Big Six items. You have full level 8 WBL to apply to anything outside of that, though I urge you to put an emphasis on utility and greater versatility or build enabling rather than raw boosters, you will be getting plenty enough of those. I reserve the right to veto any magical items I feel significantly deviate from this.

Thoughts? Questions? Suggestions?

Uhul! Let's rock!

Level 8

Great! I get my mid-level abilities! A good level to (play)test stuff as well. :)

Choose your own stats, I don't particular care what you have.

Wait... What? Can I have all 18? Why wouldn't I?

Better to have some limitation... If you want us to have high attributes, I suggest making it 20 pb, but unweighted. So an 18 only costs 8 points, instead of 17. Allows for powerful characters without breaking the math. Any PC could have 18, 16, 16, 14, 14, 12 before racial modifiers, for example.

Gestalt

Mythic Tier 1 for the purpose of qualifying for Mythic Feats and Talents. You gain none of the core Mythic Tier abilities nor do you choose a Mythic Path and gain the abilities of such, though you may choose Talents from any Path. You may choose a single Mythic Talent, to be approved by me.

Those two together might be a tad much... Except in the case of really weak gestalts (Cavalier/Rogue or some s~~~ like that). The main problem with gestalt is that it pretty much gives every character full BAB + all good saves, which forces an scaling in power of every encounter, making BAB and save progressions completely pointless.

I think gestalt is way too easy to break, honestly. It doesn't work very well other than as crutch to other than as an easy plug-and-play crutch to underpowered classes...

At very least, I'd limit the saves progression to only getting 2 good saves (unless one of the classes gain all good saves, like a Monk). Probably add some limitation to BAB progression as well (not upgrade by more than 1 step, perhaps? Restrict full BAB to noncasters? That way the Skald/Fighter isn't strictly better than a Barbarian/Fighter).

Gear: We will be using a form of automatic bonus progression that includes all of the Big Six items. You have full level 8 WBL to apply to anything outside of that, though I urge you to put an emphasis on utility and greater versatility or build enabling rather than raw boosters, you will be getting plenty enough of those. I reserve the right to veto any magical items I feel significantly deviate from this.

Hmmm... I wonder about the progression. The one in ASB is pretty good, I think. The only problem is the rapid scaling of AC... Maybe only gain the Deflection Bonus? And instead of an AoNA, character can buy an enchanted tattoo or something, so that they keep their item slot.

Thoughts?

Could be slightly less high powered. Mythic (abilities, not boosters) + Unweighted pb makes powerful characters without getting too out-of-hand and/or different from the game.

Questions?

Homebrew?

Suggestions?

Homebrew.

Storm Dragon wrote:

Choose your own stats, I don't particular care what you have.

Wait... What? Can I have all 18? Why wouldn't I?

Iunno, that's for you to decide.

Better have some limitation... If you want us to ahve high attributes, I suggest making it 20 pb, but unweighted. So an 18 only costs 8 points, instead of 17. Allows for powerful characters without breaking the math. Any character could have 18, 16, 16, 14, 14, 12 before racial modifiers, for example.

Effectively, what's the difference? You have 18's in all the stats that matter to your class in either case. So the only real difference is higher skill modifiers and easier qualifying for Feats with an 18 in Cha for a Fighter, for example.

Gestalt

Mythic Tier 1 for the purpose of qualifying for Mythic Feats and Talents. You gain none of the core Mythic Tier abilities nor do you choose a Mythic Path and gain the abilities of such, though you may choose Talents from any Path. You may choose a single Mythic Talent, to be approved by me.

Those two together might be a tad much... Except in the case of really weak gestalts (Cavalier/Rogue or some s%%$ like that). The main problem with gestalt is that it pretty much gives every character full BAB + all good saves, which forces an scaling in power of every encounter, making BAB and save progressions completely pointless.

I think gestalt is way too easy to break, honestly. It doesn't work very well other than as crutch to other than as an easy plug-and-play crutch to underpowered classes...

At very least, I'd limit the saves progression to only getting 2 good saves (unless one of the classes gain all good saves, like a Monk). Probably add some limitation to BAB progression as well (not upgrade by more than 1 step, perhaps? Restrict full BAB to noncasters? That way the Skald/Fighter isn't strictly better than a Barbarian/Fighter).

I trust you guys to make characters that are primarily fun to play rather than chasing after he biggest numbers. We've been playing together long enough I feel I can do that. I mean, I let you guys have at a build a class system with pretty much no hard limit.

Even then, I can think of quite a few good Gestalts that have a save gap, lower than full BaB, or both. Half-casters gestalt well together as an easy example.

My monster design philosophy for this is going to mainly be either larger than life creatures (so they'll have similar or greater boosts and other aids to make a 5 on 1 combat more fair) or things that can't necessarily be fought head on.

Hmmm... I wonder about the progression. The one in ASB is pretty good, I think. The only problem is the rapid scaling of AC... Maybe only gain the Deflection Bonus? And instead of an AoNA, character can buy an enchanted tattoo or something, so that they keep their item slot.

We'll might use that. My main issue with ASB's ABP is the slow stat progression, but that issue should be irrelevant here.

I'm actually considering banning purchase or big six items altogether, however, and making stat-ups and magic weapons gained solely from monster crafting. Consider the WBL tentative, on that second thought. I'll mull it over.

Re: Homebrew: On a case-by-case. I'll allow your Fighter so you can play that Warlord.

I am unfortunately not real familiar with the specifics for gestalt characters. Only played one, and it was essentially made for me.

Okay, I think I've got a solid idea of what I'm gonna be.

I'm gonna be a Dragonrider Vitalist. I'll use a bow when I'm not busy healing or having my steed do stuff.

I am unfortunately not real familiar with the specifics for gestalt characters. Only played one, and it was essentially made for me.

It's pretty simple. You take the best of: BaB, save progression, skills per level, and hit dice.

And then you get the class features of both classes.

Effectively, what's the difference? You have 18's in all the stats that matter to your class in either case. So the only real difference is higher skill modifiers and easier qualifying for Feats with an 18 in Cha for a Fighter, for example.

The difference is that you can make your characters more specialized or well-rounded as you want, but you can't be good at everything. Characters aren't be or useless (or even bad) at anything, but they aren't super-amazing at everything either.

It's more fun to choose between different, but equally effective attribute sets than just being able to pump them as much you want. I enjoy freedom of choice as much as the next guy, but I also enjoy actually having to choose.

Do I make my Warlord more of a warrior (18-14-16-10-08-14) or more of a leader (16-12-14-12-10-16)? Maybe something in-between (16-14-14-10-10-16)?

Lots of meaningful choices. But I have to choose.

I trust you guys to make characters that are primarily fun to play rather than chasing after he biggest numbers. We've been playing together long enough I feel I can do that. I mean, I let you guys have at a build a class system with pretty much no hard limit.

You're assuming any imbalance or "brokeness" would be caused by malicious intent. IME, that's rarely the case, even when following RAW. Far more often, a character just ends up way more powerful than the other simply because one class is more intuitive to build, easier to optimize and/or straight up better than the other.

A gestalt Paladin/Oracle, for example... Is a cool and somewhat iconic concept. Holy warrior + holy caster. Makes sense a player would choose it before even thinking about optimization... And it would still be leagues ahead of a Samurai/Ninja build, which is another concept a player could pick before worrying about optimization.

Of course, we're all veteran players at this point, so a gap that wide is all but impossible to happen... But gaps can still be wide enough to lower the fun potential without being Freeza-vs-Mr.Satan wide. This problem is potentiated by the free choice of attribute.

But that's not even my main issue... I'd prefer when every class (and therefore, character) a great variety of options, but, you know... Not all of them.

Even then, I can think of quite a few good Gestalts that have a save gap, lower than full BaB, or both. Half-casters gestalt well together as an easy example.

That's a good point... And notice that those gestalts wouldn't be affected by any of the suggestions I made. A Magus/Skald gestalt wouldn't care about the limit on BAB or saving throws.

My monster design philosophy for this is going to mainly be either larger than life creatures (so they'll have similar or greater boosts and other aids to make a 5 on 1 combat more fair) or things that can't necessarily be fought head on.

You see... That's kind of my point...

Besides... If someone picks two non-caster classes (here included the 4-level casters) in a gestalt game... It's only fair that he gets faster BAB progression than the guy who has full caster progression. But rather than scaling up things even more... You just limit the maximum BAB of full casters. It's not like they need it, anyway.

Let the Ranger/Barbarian have exclusivity to full BAB... The Brawler/Druid doesn't need it.

Also, if you make enemies with character with a variety of strengths and weakness in mind, you're likely to come up with more varied and unique monsters than if you created them for a party where everyone has 3 good saves and full BAB (or something close to that).

Unrelated to my last post:

A easy way to make single enemies more challenging is giving it multiple turns per round, but make it so its turns aren't adjacent to each other.

Maybe also make it so that the creature can't make full round actions on the additional turns. That way characters don't risk taking 2 full attacks before being able to act. :P

RE: Stats: I really don't think it's gonna matter in the grand scheme. And if you really want a glaring downside, you may give yourself one. However, I'll put it to a vote. Would the rest of you like a slightly lower stat array? I've had some good enjoyment from the Focus and Foible system, where essentially you get an array (in this case something fairly high like 16 14 14 12) or point buy, and in either case get an 18 of your choice, and an 8 of your choice. Thoughts? I personally do not care either way, which is why I said "pick your stats" in the first place. Should no preference be stated, I will defer to the person who DOES have a strong opinion on the matter (in this case Lemmy).

RE: Gestalt: I don't think that will be an issue in the slightest. With the sheer amount of class choices and game knowledge this group has, I do not expect any issue involving unreasonably suboptimal class choices.

Unrelated to my last post:

A easy way to make single enemies more challenging is giving it multiple turns per round, but make it so its turns aren't adjacent to each other.

Maybe also make it so that the creature can't make full round actions on the additional turns. That way characters don't risk taking 2 full attacks before being able to act. :P

I have quite a few ideas for this, and this would be one for some creatures. All enemies will have something of this nature be it the Alacritous template, some sort of dual initiative, Amazing Initiative (Mythic monsters will absolutely be a thing), or something else (I'm definitely going to be cribbing Legendary Action from 5e as an example). Particularly tough enemies may have a combination.

Keep in mind that I am by no means limiting myself strictly to Da Rulez for these monsters. I plan to homebrew from scratch many of them, and a lot will likely break general expectations for the game. As a simple, minor example, a creature with DR/Mistletoe or something odd like that.

RE: Stats: I really don't think it's gonna matter in the grand scheme. And if you really want a glaring downside, you may give yourself one. However, I'll put it to a vote. Would the rest of you like a slightly lower stat array? I've had some good enjoyment from the Focus and Foible system, where essentially you get an array (in this case something fairly high like 16 14 14 12) or point buy, and in either case get an 18 of your choice, and an 8 of your choice. Thoughts? I personally do not care either way, which is why I said "pick your stats" in the first place. Should no preference be stated, I will defer to the person who DOES have a strong opinion on the matter (in this case Lemmy).

I'm ok with having an array as well...

Maybe [18 16 14 14 12 08] and [16 16 14 14 12 12]?

I have quite a few ideas for this, and this would be one for some creatures. All enemies will have something of this nature be it the Alacritous template, some sort of dual initiative, Amazing Initiative (Mythic monsters will absolutely be a thing), or something else (I'm definitely going to be cribbing Legendary Action from 5e as an example). Particularly tough enemies may have a combination.

Keep in mind that I am by no means limiting myself strictly to Da Rulez for these monsters. I plan to homebrew from scratch many of them, and a lot will likely break general expectations for the game. As a simple, minor example, a creature with DR/Mistletoe or something odd like that.

Ah, yes... I forgot Advanced Bestiary was a thing... It's one of the few Paizo books I actually want to buy.

Hrm. As a fairly MAD gestalt with no need for int but having two 2 skill point per level classes I quite like having any stats I want so Im not starved for skill points.

Other than that, Im not too concerned about my stats.

I think I'm going to play either a Warlord/Oracle or Warlord/Psion (I like support characters that are also badass!)... Or maybe a Paragon/WHO-CARES-ABOUT-THE-OTHER-CLASS-IMMA-SUPLEX-A-F*CKING-DRAGON!

In all seriousness... A Paragon/Bard might be just the thing I want. But I'd feel bad about missing out on Combat Prowesses.

Aargh! TOO MANY CHOICES!

First Custom Class Feature Selection! Now, this!

WHY MUST YOU ALWAYS TORTURE US LIKE THIS???

MUAHAHAHAHAHA

Could I use a Cha-based Magu that isn't, you know... Terrible?

So, some clarifiations first. We will be using the Another Step Beyond character advancement rules, reposted here:

You will get NO magic items to start. You may have any mundane gear you please, including special materials (Mithral, Dragonhide, Elysian Bronze, whatever) up to the (unlikely to be reached) cap of 8th level wealth by level.

Clarification: You DO also get a Mythic Feat, and Mythic Power equal to your tier's normal limit.

We will be using an array, 18 16 16 14 14 12.

We will use Background Skills and the minimum for non-full caster classes that aren't Int based is 4 skills+Int per level. Skills will be very important in this game.

Could I use a Cha-based Magu that isn't, you know... Terrible?

Gonna say no here, simply because there are so many other options and the stats are so high anyway. Play an Int Magus plus a class that uses Cha, or something similar to a Cha Magus, I believe there's a Bard archetype that can do it.

Note on party composition: We currently have two ranged characters already, consider making at least one melee character to keep monsters pinned down.

I didn't even know we had characters already... Much less ranged or melee!

Both my builds are mostly melee-oriented, but AC isn't particularly high on either of them, so it'd be nice to have someone with whom to share the beating. XD

May I use the Universal Unarmed & Unarmored variant?

Technically it stacks with Paragon's armor bonus, but that goes against balance and theme of the Paragon's ability, so I'm disregarding that little exploit. I just want IUS and be considered as having Stunning Fist for the purpose of fulfilling prerequisites.

I can also ignore the increased damage die to IUS, if you prefer.

Are we using feat-scaling rules?

I outlined one of my builds.

I assumed PA is a combat option and Improved Grapple automatically scales to Greater Grapple I'll change it if that isn't the case. It's still missing its gear and two Paragon Powers. As well as the level-dependent bonuses (other than attributes).

Speaking of which...

Om nom nom

Lessee...

Yes on the scaling Feats. Combat Expertise and Power Attack (/Deadly Aim) are core options if you meet the prereqs, Improved Maneuver Feats scale to Greater at BaB +6.

No on Universal Unarmed; Given this is gestalt anybody can already easily get those benefits by expending a resource (in this case, class levels).

Well... If you prefer, I could simply take a single level of Monk and get not only IUS (with increased damage), but actual Stunning Fist, FoB and a bonus Monk feat, which lets me grab Dragon Ferocity.

I lose 1 spell and 2 skill points, but my bard levels are more for support spells, so having spell-progression slightly delayed doesn't really matter. It still actually makes the character more powerful in the grand scheme of things.

I'm fine with that.

I'm half-tempted to use a bigass sword just because of the Monster Hunter vibe! XD

So turns out since I forgot to add my inherent bonuses my stats are gonna be the same except my Int drops to 12.

Yey

I got an avatar, now! It's not red-haired, but I guess you can't have it all... I suppose having a soul is not so bad.

Site won't let me make a profile. Anyone else having issues with that?

Mine seems ok.

Yo! Think i'm setup. Might have to brush up on formatting my text for rolls and actions. I'll try to be honest with what maneuvers I draw randomly to keep from bogging things down.

Stickies, ho!

For all your formatting needs.

Now that all three of you are here, please post in Gameplay. At least a little intro, but I'm actually ready to get started since I'm not sure if 9Fingers is making a character or not; He said to count him out on it earlier today, though is somewhat waffling? I'm not sure. Either way, this game's format is such that working in a new player is easy peasy, so let's get started!

Even you, MaUC, we can RP a bit even without complete character sheets.

Also, group name? How long do you think you guys have worked together? That sort of thing.

We telepathize using Animorphs rules in my superior, more civilized games.

I have no idea what that means. I've never read Animorphs... Well... That's not true. I read like... Half a chapter of the first book back in college.

You should, it's a lighthearted series about kids who use animal shapeshifting to take on an invasion of horrifying body stealing brain slugs and their slow descent into depression and despair as the PTSD from fighting a slowly losing war grinds them down into shells of their former selves.

Yeah... I'd consider it if the series weren't over 50 books long... ><'

54 books, but they're really SHORT books is the thing. About 150 pages a pop, 8203 total pages from a quick Google search. That's also paperback large print pages, so probably closer to 100 pages or less in hardback terms, or a gross estimate of 5400 pages (not counting supplementary books, only one of which is really relevant to anything).

For reference, the average Jim Butcher novel (according to my bookshelf) is between 450 and 600 pages long, so the Animoprhs series is really only about 10 "real" books long, and probably quite a bit less.

Rynjin told me to do it this way. >_>

To be fair, it does provide a difference in the event your character wants to think without broadcasting it to the collective.

54 books, but they're really SHORT books is the thing. About 150 pages a pop, 8203 total pages from a quick Google search. That's also paperback large print pages, so probably closer to 100 pages or less in hardback terms, or a gross estimate of 5400 pages (not counting supplementary books, only one of which is really relevant to anything).

For reference, the average Jim Butcher novel (according to my bookshelf) is between 450 and 600 pages long, so the Animoprhs series is really only about 10 "real" books long, and probably quite a bit less.

Yeah... 10 books is almost the whole Dresden Files collection... I don't know if I'd have the energy to read all of that again if I had to do it from the start.

I recently started reading the Codex Alera books... And even though I actually own the physical books, if it weren't for audio-books, I wouldn't have had the time or energy to finish even the first one.

Only recently I got a little free time and some quasi-vacations...

Rynjin told me to do it this way. >_>

To be fair, it does provide a difference in the event your character wants to think without broadcasting it to the collective.

I don't mind, I just wasn't sure what it was. I thought we were using DH's "italics for thoughts + bold for speech = italics + bold for telepathy" rule, since Storm Dragon posted a link to that thread. :P

The savage winds! Elite fang! Feral kittens!

I just realized that's Nathan, not 9fingers.

Maybe Wild Strikers? Best guess I got so far.

Can you other two please put links to your character sheets in your profiles? Plus the standard quickbar info for all of you, of course. "Male Half-Giant Gestalt Dragonrider/Vitalist 8" is way less useful to me than "HP XX/YY| AC Z| Etc.". =)

The Venators. It means "Hunters" in Latin... Sounds cool. And it's short and memorable.

I'm amused by the fact that Iria's quick info bar describes her as "Human Human". XD

I just realized I haven't even thought about the Mythic part of the campaign/character build...

We get a mythic talent, right? I'm sincerely torn between Imprinting Hand, Lesson Learned, Punishing Blow, Uncanny Grapple or Quick Recovery... Transfer Magic is pretty cool too.

Uncanny Grapple is cool, but it's somewhat redundant with Piledriver... Punishing Blow is really cool and also very fitting with the campaign's theme, but I don't know how balanced it is. Lesson Learned and Quick Recovery are just nice.

Honestly, at least half of the Mythic options have no reason to be "mythic"; They'd be perfectly fine as normal options... But Paizo being Paizo, anything martial-oriented can't be much better than mediocre without being considered completely beyond the realm of acceptable power...

*sigh*

One Mythic Talent, one Mythic Feat, yes.

Oh, we get a Mythic Feat? I thought we could just pick one of them in place of one of our feats... That's cool.

Oh, BTW... Will there be any changes to mobility?

In ASB we have this:

Since we're at mid levels, that gives us some extra mobility, but also means many monsters can also move and triple slash us, thus making combat more dynamic.

Or we could use something like that weird Revised Action Economy system (I'm unsure how good it is. I know there's some stuff that downright doesn't work with it, like Spell Combat, but other than that, I don't know how good or bad it is).

Or something else, of course.

PS: I might change Titus picture... I had something in mind when I created him, but it ended up turning into a different character. Hope you don't mind.

I'm gonna leave action economy how it is, for now. I want to get a handle on the game's difficulty at a relative base level, but we might revisit it later.

Fair enough.

Was there a question about feather fall and catfall? I missed that... Well, in any case, since the FF effect is part of a flight ability, I think FF fits better than CF.

Oh, and if Nyr can only descend at half-speed, doesn't that mean she's doing so at 30 ft/round?

Double move.

Oh, right... Dur!

Shouldn't it be Iria's turn now? Assuming we all started initiative at the same time, before actually engaging in combat, we all spent turns descending... It just happens that Titus (and maybe Iria) weren't spending any actions.

Isn't that what I said? Iria and Malagar/Nyr?

Also I sort of gave you the descending rounds as freebies, so Battle Sense IS up already. You had plenty of time to buff on the way down.