Errata / Clarification Request: Ascetic Style

Hi, there, PFS!

I'm writing here to please ask for Ascetic Style to be subject to errata or PFS clarification so it can function as its creator intended and reinstated into PFS, in the following manner:

Choose one weapon with the monk weapon quality. While using this style and wielding the chosen weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects from feats that augment an unarmed strike, as if attacks with the weapon were unarmed attacks.

The necessary errata was bolded.

The reason why this would be extremely welcome is that, while Unchained Monks are a great addition to the game, they have lots of barriers preventing them from using them any monk weapons primarily - namely, reliance on unarmed attacks for Style Strikes and their extra attacks granted by spending ki.

Ascetic Style provides much needed build variety and allows fulfilling typical martial arts fantasies as the bo staff-twirling or jian-dancing mystic.

I think that this changed version of the feat - which doesn't benefit from the likes of the Brawling enhancement or immediately obtain unarmed damage dice on a weapon - would not just be desirable, but also quite balanced.
The change from making its use focused from weapons in the monk fighter weapon group to weapons with the monk weapon quality prevents abuse of monk group weapons with 18-20/2x critical like the urumi. (An alternative solution is to remove the urumi from the list of monk weapons, as it doesn't have the monk special quality.)

Comparing an Ascetic Style Monk from a typical Dragon Style Monk, you can see that neither has a major advantage over the other (if anything, the Dragon Style Monk may be a bit ahead in most departments other than crit) after this change is made.

Here is a handy comparison:

Dragon Monk
- 2x STR added on first attack, 1.5x STR added on the rest
- Full unarmed damage dice
- 19-20/2x crit after Imp. Critical
- Other bonuses (charge stuff, bonus to saves, shaken on crit/Stunning Fist use)
- Takes 2 feats to fulfill, complete by level 5.

Ascetic Monk
- 1.5x STR
- Unarmed damage dice -4 or weapon dice. At 1st level it could be up to 1d10 base with certain weapons but in all fairness, most UnMonks start off using weapons anyway. The Dragon Monk only switches to exclusively unarmed strikes at level 3-5 and by then thay have 1d8 unarmed damage to match this style.
- 17-20/2x crit with a close quarters weapon, or 19-20/3x crit with a reach one, both after Imp. Critical.
- Other bonuses (reach at the cost of worse crit, perhaps a weapon quality)
- Takes 3 feats to fulfill Style line, plus requires Weapon Focus, complete by level 7.

Please, give this change consideration.

Thank you for your time + attention.

I support this clarification.

I will support this.

Worth studying.

Can you link to somewhere that the creator of the feat clarified this is how they intended it to work? Even an unofficial post may help, as one of main things the Campaign Clarifications document was stated to want to address is a situation where the creator has posted about the issue.

This sounds like a good candidate for the Campaign Clarifications, then, unless leadership deems it too powerful even with the change.

That comparison might benefit from some work and a couple of good faith builds at various levels. Manufactured weapons have a couple of advantages, and the "augment unarmed strikes" line would need a lot of clarification (does it work with other combat styles of you are a master of many styles for example).

As you mentioned even unchained monks who focus on unarmed strikes (I have several characters who do so, and the weapon option seems flat out better a lot of the time) tend to wear and use weapons (if only to use a reach weapon), and options that let you flurry with other weapons are also in the mix.
This feat creates the unfortunate situation that every new option to improve unarmed strikes would apply here as well (you did limit it to feats though, which is a good start, as written the original feat works with strong jaw ).

I have been aware of the reflective article about the subject since a player asked my about the feat quite some time ago (not a bad article, and not the first designer who was surprised what ended up in print either). Maybe you will get lucky and a "fixed" version gets reprinted somewhere down the line, unfortunately player companions tend not to get reprinted.

Removed some posts referring to an unofficial/personal blog. We'd really prefer to not host comments that can easily spiral into drama and personally abusive commentary towards any member of our community.

Sebastion: Monk strikes work with strong Jaw anyway. Their fists are treated as both natural and manufactured weapons, whichever. It's why I like to know if there's a monk or brawler in the party: that way i have TWO animal companions to buff.

Can you link to somewhere that the creator of the feat clarified this is how they intended it to work? Even an unofficial post may help, as one of main things the Campaign Clarifications document was stated to want to address is a situation where the creator has posted about the issue.

No link, but the author intentionally tried to include the FCT errata to close incorrect interpretation, but accidentally included the original ("will be incorrectly interpreted") wording in the handoff.

That comparison might benefit from some work and a couple of good faith builds at various levels. Manufactured weapons have a couple of advantages, and the "augment unarmed strikes" line would need a lot of clarification (does it work with other combat styles of you are a master of many styles for example).

You reminded me of one major advantage that Ascetic Style has over Dragon Style which may tip the balance in favor of one over the other - magic items.

The Ascetic Style user has a much cheaper to enchant weapon, as Amulets of Mighty Fists are more expensive.

Greater magic weapon can easily take care of that.

I would love to be able to throw stunning shuriken.

Sebastion: Monk strikes work with strong Jaw anyway. Their fists are treated as both natural and manufactured weapons, whichever. It's why I like to know if there's a monk or brawler in the party: that way i have TWO animal companions to buff.

Oh I am aware, I play a lot of hunters (5-6 currently) and monks (3-5), I just don't think strong jaw should apply to the temple sword the monk with ascetic style is using.

Greater magic weapon can easily take care of that.

Caster level scaling means that usually +2 is the best you get for the core of your PFS career, while other character run around with +5 weapons (of more likely furious weapons/weapons enhanced with other effects).

I would love to be able to throw stunning shuriken.

You can! Just slap Ki Focus on them.

Sean Ennis wrote:

I would love to be able to throw stunning shuriken.

You can! Just slap Ki Focus on them.

Unfortunately, ki focus is melee only.

Caster level scaling means that usually +2 is the best you get for the core of your PFS career, while other character run around with +5 weapons (of more likely furious weapons/weapons enhanced with other effects).

I was about to argue how separate scaling from Magic Weapon and the Amulet of Mighty Fists helped even that out, but the prices seem to have changed since last time I looked.

I'miss curious how this change would work mult-classing. I have noticed theres a number of different items that seem balanced but when combined with a number of different classes is completely broken.

While I'd like to see more options opened for the unchained monk, I fear the abuse of this feat tree in other builds.