Elves Versus Dwarves -- Who Is Better? (Inactive)

Game Master Chainmail

Back in the old days (won't say how old), I ran a two party PnP campaign. One party originated in an Elvish enclave and one party originated in a Dwarven enclave. Both enclaves were geographically distant. The Elvish party had elf types and humans; the Dwarvish party had all Dwarvish and Gnome types with humans.

The two parties had sessions without the other party present. There was an intense rivalry between the two groups as the renown of each group reached the other through spies and heralds. The natural elf/dwarf rivalry and the fact that campaign objectives for each group (dwarves deforesting land to get to the good mining spots) fed the rivalry led to friendly and not so friendly rivalries. I still remember when the "great trees" were destroyed (and an ent and druid displaced) by the dwarf group to get to a valuable deposit of adamantium, and the outrage in the elf camp.

Later in the campaign the groups were integrated in sessions where their interaction was required.
.
Seems like this concept may be ideal for PbP. It would require that teams did not read the other teams threads for spoilers (don't know if that could be enforced).

Anyway, I still remember most of my campaign design. Just wondered what the PbP experts thought and, if an experienced PbP DM (yes, I nostalgically use that term) or set of DMs would be interested in a collaboration. Obviously this would have to be run w/ Pathfinder.

If you want to know if who is better (according to an entire year of intensive gameplay in college = lots of free time), you can open the spoiler:

Isn't their a wow battleground like that?

Bah! As if a spoiler would be enough to hide such a blatantly obvious truth!

In case you end up doing this, sign me up for the better side! ;) How large would you want the teams to be? What will be the starting level?

Well, I would start w/ 6 first level chars each team w 15pt build and avg starting gold.

I didn't have anything like Kingmaker, but both sides did build a Stronghold (by the way, my Stronghold development idea was years before Neverwinter Nights 2 computer game, but eerily similar). The dwarves and elves were pushed into two isolated communities and humans did not want them to expand at all. The campaign was a traditional dungeon crawl with a few outdoor and town encounters.
As for the the level of the rivalry, I ran this three times and the PvP varied from none to TPK for one side with a complete looting of the losing party.
Anyway, the PbP forum seems ideal, but many campaigns suffer from high attrition. People seen to drop faster due to real life than in game hazards. I don't know if I could keep both Team Elf and Team Dwarf going at once without help. If any participants from the original group or what was once TSR remembers this, please don't offer any spoilers (or use it for NWN 3).

I thought about starting one team along, but then anyone reading the gameplay thread can't play on the other team. And I would read the other thread to see if would be any fun if I was a player. Could six players not once read the other thread to see what the other team was doing? I was hoping for some veteran PbP DM advice.

I briefly played a PbP where the GM ran 2 parties in the same adventure. I never peeked, because as you say, that could spoil the fun. I don't read other player's spoilers for the same reason.

You'd just have to make it clear that that's a no-no, and hope for the best.

Ok, consider the recruiting open. This will be a retro homebrew faithfully adapted to Pathfinder. The original campaign had a cameo from a TSR celebrity!
Two groups of 6 level 1 chars - 15pt buy, avg gold, Max HP and ONLY THE CORE RULEBOOK
Any nonCORE races must be approved (no changelings)
No traits, but you get a CAMPAIGN feat

Group 1 is the Dwarf Team and will consist of at least 3 dwarves and gnomes.

Group 2 is an elf team and will conist of at least 3 elves (half-elves do not count as half an elf, they count as zero elves)

Elves will have a wood elf variant with +2 to STR and DEX, but -2 to CON. Dwarves will have a battle dwarf variant with +2 to STR and CON, but -2 to DEX.

If you want to be a non-elf monk, you probably want the dwarf team. If you want to be non-dwarf barbarian, you probably want the elf team.

Warning, this is not your perfectly balanced by CR deal. Bad players will die, good players may still die, and great players still may die when the dice gods fail them.

If you are interested, get an alias with crunch, state which team you want on, and why this may be for you.

If you look at the other teams posts, you will only be depriving yourselves

Wow. That looks old school. What is your stance on dump stats then? If I make a dwarf with Cha 7 before racials (ending with 5), would he basically be unable to get anyone to listen to him, including party members?

Bring on the dump stats, just be prepared when they affect gameplay.
Will we see a battle dwarf with a 5 DEX? I don't know; it takes a real dwarf or dwarf maiden to have the "boldness" to dump DEX.

Will we see an elf with a 5 CON?

If you have a 5 CHA, I expect you to more dour and gruff than the average dwarf who has an 8 CHA. You just can't tell the Pathfinder Society if you have a stat below 7.

For Team Dwarf:

Hattrick Toombledorf, gnome sorcerer

I would cast my vote in with team Elf

Why would this be perfect for me?

Talon has forever walked the forests around his settlement, learning from his father about the ways of nature and the effects that his and other's actions have upon the world around them. He heard recently of the continued and indeed increased tensions between Elves and Dwarves, and believes that this might well be his chance to not only test himself, but also to prove to those around him that he has learnt the lessons that he has been taught well.

Or if you would prefer the ooc reason, this sounds like a pretty cool idea for a campaign and I would love to see where it ends up.

Would love to join the Elven team please.

ELORIN SILENTALL

This sounds like an amazing idea, I would love to join and see what happens with it. I would love to play in a game where the significant npc's are actually other players and not npc's at all. with goals and Agenda of their own. It sounds like so much fun. Besides I haven't played Elf before and I love a challenge.

I think some of the builds are a little over.

The plan is the dwarven king and elven queen, represented by me and me respectively, will pick their leader.

That leader will be in charge of picking their party. Then we will stage to a separate thread for each party.

For the Dwarf team, weighing at 199lbs and standing a positively giant 4' 5", I give you...

BRASK ALPSBANE
Male Dwarf Ranger 1
NN Medium Humanoid (Dwarf)
Init +3; Senses Darkvision (60 feet); Perception +7
--------------------
DEFENSE
--------------------
AC 16, touch 13, flat-footed 13. . (+3 armor, +3 Dex)
hp 10 (1d10)
Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +3
Defensive Abilities Defensive Training
--------------------
OFFENSE
--------------------
Spd 20 ft.
Melee Greataxe +2 (1d12+1/20/x3) and
. . Hammer, Light +2 (1d4+1/20/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +2 (1d3+1/20/x2)
Ranged Longbow +4 (1d8/20/x3)
Ranger Spells Known (CL 0, 2 melee touch, 4 ranged touch):
--------------------
STATISTICS
--------------------
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 6
Base Atk +1; CMB +2; CMD 15
Feats Point Blank Shot
Skills Acrobatics +0, Climb +2, Escape Artist +0, Fly +0, Heal +7, Intimidate +2, Knowledge (Geography) +5, Knowledge (Nature) +5, Perception +7, Ride +0, Stealth +4, Survival +7, Swim -2
Languages Common, Dwarven, Gnome
SQ Enemies: Humanoids (Elf) (+2 bonus) (Ex), Greed, Hardy +2, Hatred, Slow and Steady, Stability, Stonecunning +2, Track +1, Wild Empathy -1 (Ex)
Combat Gear Arrows (40), Greataxe, Hammer, Light (3), Longbow, Studded Leather; Other Gear Acid Flask, Alchemist's Fire Flask, Backpack (6 @ 18.22 lbs), Bedroll, Crowbar, Flint and steel, Grappling hook, Rope, silk (50 ft.), Waterskin
--------------------
SPECIAL ABILITIES
--------------------
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Defensive Training (+4) +4 dodge bonus to AC against monsters of the Giant subtype.
Enemies: Humanoids (Elf) (+2 bonus) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Humanoids (Elf).
Greed +2 to Appraise checks to determine the price of nonmagical goods that contain precious metals or gemstones.
Hardy +2 Gain a racial bonus to saves vs Poison, Spells and Spell-Like effects.
Hatred +1 racial bonus to attacks against Orcs and Goblinoids.
Point Blank Shot +1 to attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at up to 30 feet.
Slow and Steady Your base speed is never modified by encumbrance.
Stability +4 to avoid being bull rushed or tripped while standing.
Stonecunning +2 +2 bonus to Perception vs unusual stonework. Free check within 10 feet.
Track +1 +1 to survival checks to track.
Wild Empathy -1 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.

Why this is perfect for me?
In Character:
"Ne'er did like 'em Elves. Always wit' tha jokes, those pointy eared bastards. It was always 'Yo Fatso! Wanna leg o' lamb?' or 'HEY GUYS! Here comes Stubby!' But Ah'm gonna get me tha last laugh. They'll never see it comin'."

Out of Character:
This seems like fun.Never have played a dwarf or ranger before, soI though this might be a good place to try.

Dotting. I'll be back later with a character.

I HAVE TO JOIN THIS putting forth gnome bard magician arch as I love them so obviously for the Dwarves as dwarves and gnomes are awesome. Or gnome barbarian as I have always wanted to make on of those :)

I HAVE TO JOIN THIS putting forth gnome bard magician arch as I love them so obviously for the Dwarves as dwarves and gnomes are awesome. Or gnome barbarian as I have always wanted to make on of those :)

We are going old school, back to the glory days before such fancy concepts as traits and archetypes.

By the way, I like how Brask is thinking. But the humans have been so mean to the elves and dwarves (driving the dwarves into an arctic reservation and the elves onto a swamp ridden island) that I recommend taking humans as your racial enemy. The nearest elf starts so far away, you won't see him for (gazing in the distance) many levels.

Maybe save elves for your second racial enemy Brask. By the way, humans may not take humans as a racial enemy unless of evil alignment.

Alrighty, not a problem I'll get that fixed right up. glad you like him.

"Ne'er could stan' 'umans neither! They's worsen tha Elves with their 'ole 'feel good' attitudes. 'Bout the only thing worsen a 'uman's a Goblin. An' there ain't nuttin' that's worsen a Goblin."

Aye, but don't forget that Favoured Enemies get stronger the higher you level up, therefore common advice is to take things like dragons at low levels despite being unlikely to meet them at say level 2, because by the time you do meet them at around level 15, you are racking up serious bonuses to hit and damage which will help with that pesky AC and so on.

Also, just noticed I haven't added my own favoured enemy bonus to the character sheet, and thus will take Humanoid (Human) as my favoured enemy.

Aye, but don't forget that Favoured Enemies get stronger the higher you level up, therefore common advice is to take things like dragons at low levels despite being unlikely to meet them at say level 2, because by the time you do meet them at around level 15, you are racking up serious bonuses to hit and damage which will help with that pesky AC and so on.

Also, just noticed I haven't added my own favoured enemy bonus to the character sheet, and thus will take Humanoid (Human) as my favoured enemy.

This is not your normal perfectly CR balanced pathfinder campaign, it will be hard. Saving up for a later enemy is not recommended. Although the elves and dwarves have the resources to replace characters at low levels, character deaths will take their toll on your team. Who knows, maybe character deaths will exceed attrition to real life emergencies.

Mostly dotting for interest, but I'm thinking of posting with a gnomish sorcerer for the dwarven team. The 15-point buy is giving me fits, but I think I can work around it.

I'll try to get it posted shortly.

Jestem wrote:

Aye, but don't forget that Favoured Enemies get stronger the higher you level up, therefore common advice is to take things like dragons at low levels despite being unlikely to meet them at say level 2, because by the time you do meet them at around level 15, you are racking up serious bonuses to hit and damage which will help with that pesky AC and so on.

Also, just noticed I haven't added my own favoured enemy bonus to the character sheet, and thus will take Humanoid (Human) as my favoured enemy.

This is not your normal perfectly CR balanced pathfinder campaign, it will be hard. Saving up for a later enemy is not recommended. Although the elves and dwarves have the resources to replace characters at low levels, character deaths will take their toll on your team. Who knows, maybe character deaths will exceed attrition to real life emergencies.

Aye, fair enough.

Interest for later. :)

[edit]I'll play team elf. In possibly the only successful PbP I'm in (although its slowing) I play a dwarf, so the change is good. :)

Mostly dotting for interest, but I'm thinking of posting with a gnomish sorcerer for the dwarven team. The 15-point buy is giving me fits, but I think I can work around it.

I'll try to get it posted shortly.

If you want to play a gnome sorcerer, I can switch to Team Elf. I'm flexible that way. My elf wizard will crush your puny gnome with my mighty magic! Grrr!

Working up an elven rogue. Spy for the crown? Maybe. Back alley thief? More likely.

Sign me up on Team Dwarf. I will submit a token dwarf fighter :)

Doh. I didn't notice the other gnome sorcerer. Sorry about that.

I'd prefer to play a gnome sorcerer than an elven wizard, as I've never played as a gnome. Or a sorcerer for that matter. Are you sure you're ok with being a skinny little elf?

Also, Paizo needs some more gnome pictures. I'm still looking for one.

Char mostly completed, will have the profile up when I get back from work.

Marlamin (Mar), a half-elf druid. It seems we have enough purebreeds so I figured I'd give something different, and slightly slanted to combat. :)

Doh. I didn't notice the other gnome sorcerer. Sorry about that.

I'd prefer to play a gnome sorcerer than an elven wizard, as I've never played as a gnome. Or a sorcerer for that matter. Are you sure you're ok with being a skinny little elf?

Also, Paizo needs some more gnome pictures. I'm still looking for one.

Yeah, I'm fine with an elf. I've got one from another PbP that ended before we did much. I can basically use it as is. Just gotta redo the stats to conform to the rules here. I'll go over and set him up for this game for GM approval.

Looks like we have more dwarves/gnomes than elves right now, anyway.

GM Goblin King, here, with my revised elf wizard, Seltyn, for your perusal.

K gnome monk then Bio and stats to come.

Setlyn and Talon builds look great for team elf. Note no traits. We just need more elves. Would Setlyn or Talon have any real life time constraints against taking over as leader of team elf?

Where's the beef for both teams? Remember, a wood elf gets +2 STR, +2 DEX and -2 CON; a battle dwarf gets +2 STR, -2 DEX and +2 CON.

Human and halfling characters are welcome to be submitted as candidates for either team. All half orc candidates are killed on the spot.

The party size is six - no reason not to have two sorcerors in a six person party when fights will be so tough. (Or two wizards for that matter). But that will be up to the party leader to decide.

If there would be no other contenders, then no problems for me to take the team leader position. If I were to take it however, then would love at least one sorcerer.

My end plan for my character though is to go down the arcane archer route, so need some more sneaky buggers and a couple of heavy hitters to round out the party.

What would be involved in taking team leader position just out of interest?

Okay, I'll take team leader, since I have time, and because Seltyn is a genius.

Elorin Silentall - Bard
Marlamin - Druid
Talon Moonwalker - Ranger (archer)
Seltyn Sevenleaf - Wizard (evoker)

We could use a couple of front-line melee monsters. Check out that wood elf subrace! A couple wood elf barbarians would hack those cursed dwarves to bits!

Did I miss anyone?

You'll rue the day you mess with us, dwarves. Rue, I say!

EDIT: Talon expressed interest in team leader, so that would be fine with me. Rangers are more "leadery."

Team leader will be like the old school caller. He is responsible for the actions of those not posting, as they will then follow general orders to the best of their ability. He (or she) will submit the roster of the five characters they want to take with them.

He is responsible for issuing battle orders in times of stress. Before any encounter the team leader will be allowed 20 words of text to convey battle orders to the group. There will be no communication beyond 20 words of text for each character per round when the poop flies.

By the way, the dwarf team leader will have even more authority. Rather than a first among equals like the elf, he will be more like a military leader.

Ninni looks good for the dwarves! Gnome monk, love it.

Feel free to give me input beyond (1) 15 pt build not enough (2) Core only, I want to use a janky 3.5 build and (3) why can't I have traits. I am trying to mix a great old tabletop idea with Pathfinder and the Play by Post idea.

I present to you Velesia Shadestep, thief, lockpicker, backstabber, and your best friend!

Joining team elf, of course.

As to why I think this is for me, well, I've always wanted to be in some sort of versus campaign, but have never had the chance to actually be in one. I'm ready to go!

Oh, if I can take wood elf, then that works, I bet. Lemme fiddle with the build It'll be up soon.

Wow, the dwarves got so much love and talk at first, but the elves may be ready to go first. I started work on the first dwarven encounter, I may have to start on the elven encounter now.

Is Brask ready to be leader for team dwarf? Ninni, the dwarf king likes gnomes, but he is not ready to hand over the dwarven standard of 5 generations to a gnome yet.

I put out the call when the last elven enclave was threatened, and I only have a few volunteers to save the elven way of life. Fortunately they make up in heart and courage what they lack in numbers.

Lady Ciedrel consults the Elfstone for a choosing. A choosing is based on a divine inspiration (think of Po being chosen in Kung Fu panda) and the choosing inspires her to pick Seltyn. It is not an indication of status or merit, but solely of success and fortune. Seltyn is destined to be the first choice. That doesn't mean it is the final choice. If Seltyn decides to pass for any reasons of the heart, the destiny falls to Talon. Often elves are subject to conflicts in their inner soul (= real life intrusions and other obligations on other threads) and they cannot allow the fate of the elven nation to be dependent on a distracted and unfocused heart.

If Seltyn is the one who has been chosen then I will stand by that call. I am not looking for fame and fortune. I wish as much as any of us to protect the enclave that we hold so dear and regain our rightful place as free people to roam and settle where we choose. I believe therefore that the lessons that I have learnt from my father may be of use. I will stand by whomsoever leads us. I will give everything I can to protect those who follow our path. This is my vow, and may the blood of my body confirm it to you all

The dwarf nation is reduced to the size of.....an elf's pubic region.....and this all the recruits I have. Oh, the ones we have are stout and true, but they have not been trained to the hold the line. See this prosthetic hammer I have for a left hand. I left it at Bitterstone pass with 60 dwarves who I would love to see on these recruiting boards.

Send out the heralds again. The battle dwarves repatriated from human lands are arriving. Maybe there is some hope there.

Brask, I know you are not used to leading, but dwarves follow warriors not pretty faces. Get me a beer from that keg over there.

Well spoken Talon. The chosing showed you were a close number two and that Seltyn has been distracted by family tragedy and the introspection of the arcane kind (and maybe PbP overload). Do not assume you will be following so quickly.

Between you and Seltyn, I expect you to bring the best six forward for the oath and the standard. The fact that I am a wizard and studied at the same school with Seltyn's father and some wild nights on the town with him did not influence the choosing in any way.

This actually looks pretty cool! Is there still spots open

There will be some in game benefits for whichever party departs first. They will not be nearly as significant as the quality of the six chosen. Do not rush cannonfodder into the battle.

Please judge your party by their ability post and participate.

Finally, I have seen some great roleplaying on the threads I have searched. Roleplaying will be something to be done when you are bored with the pace of the action. The action comes first, the roleplaying second. I would consider the group this was designed for as "hack and slashers". Some players held up a card that said "roleplaying" rather than interact.

Obviously from the posts, I am not one of those players. But this campaign is more like Jason Statham from Fast and Furious or Crank than that of Harry Potter.

Tons of room - post a character.

First things first, can we have some clarification on whom has been chosen for each side by yourself, or at least who has actually applied. Second of all, your last post as Lady Ciedrel was hard to figure out. Has Seltyn dropped out or not or what is going on?

The game does not have to be purely hack and slash or purely roleplay, a combination of both is not impossible. We can manage it.

This actually looks pretty cool! Is there still spots open

We've got the 4 listed above. There's a rogue ready, someone working on a fighter type, and that's it for the elf side. I really would like 2 fighty types for a group of 6, but we'll see.

The dwarves still need a few more. I think they've got a dwarf and 2 or 3 gnomes so far.

Here's my submission (Volty). Havent finished out the goods, but everything else is done, I think.

He'll be in the thick of it. Sword/Shield druid.

If needs be I can change myself around to be a two weapon fighting elf, although that means changing stats around a little. Its whatever the group needs to be honest.