Here's my group's update for the core psionic classes, based on our playtest results with the Pathfinder alpha documents.
Give 'em a download and let us know what you think!
Peace,
tfad
The shaper ability "Sculptor's Imagination" says that an Astral Construct gets +4 Constitution (which is probably not true).
My initial complaint... I can't read it with OSX's Preview program. Fortunately, I DO have Acrobat Professional, so I can view it there. Unfortunately, Acrobat Professional seems to take forever to load.
Also, I like the "NOT for use with D&D 4.0" logo at the end. Kudos. I'll give it a once over later. This could be very handy.
On Wilder enervation being 3% per wild surge point: Ack!
When playing a Wilder I wilder surged a lot, but I was easily was able to deal with enervation rolls by just rolling a d20 (1 was %5, 2 was 10%, and so on). I don't like that I would actually have to roll a d100 everytime I use my ability.
Looks interesting, tallforadwarf. Thanks for posting it. I'll try to do more than skim and comment later.
My initial complaint... I can't read it with OSX's Preview program. Fortunately, I DO have Acrobat Professional, so I can view it there. Unfortunately, Acrobat Professional seems to take forever to load.
[threadjack]Preview can be a bit quirky for pdf's depending on the version, and you'll see threads pop up every few months about it. Quite a few Mac users here, including Vic and crew, who can help troubleshoot issues. FYI it displayed fine for me; usually I lose background graphics but don't know it.[/threadjack]
The shaper ability "Sculptor's Imagination" says that an Astral Construct gets +4 Constitution (which is probably not true).
You're right - it's not true. That's a cut and paste error that slipped through the net and is our first piece of official errata! It should read dexterity. It was switched from the Alpha ability as the constructs do not have a constitution score. They still end up slightly behind a summoned monster in terms of power, but like the Psion, make up for it in terms of versatility.
I'll take a note of this and update the file when I have more than one change to make.When playing a Wilder I wilder surged a lot, but I was easily was able to deal with enervation rolls by just rolling a d20 (1 was %5, 2 was 10%, and so on). I don't like that I would actually have to roll a d100 everytime I use my ability.
I'm assuming this is a joke.... You had me there for a minute!
I can't help on any technical issues, sorry for that. Do share if you use it in your games, my group and I would love to know what you found out whilst playtesting.
Peace,
tfad
Love what you did with the discipline powers, and the 1st level gift is evocative, flavorful, and gives a really nice "nod" to some earleir psionic feats, without being at all overpowered. Kudos!
I haven't gone through everything yet; just the psion. So far I really like what I see. I'd make only the following (minor) recommendations:
1. (Editorial) p. 3 says you gain 1 power known per level ("..each time he or she gains a level, they unlock the knowledge of a new power"); the table gives a faster progression.
1. (Editorial) In listing discipline power descriptions, put the level at which you gain them in the text somewhere, or, far better yet, put the discipline powers table BEFORE the descriptions.
2. (Mechanical) Mental hammer should maybe deal nonlethal damage, rather than force damage. As is, it's better than the evoker's energy ray (no critters have force resistance), and nonlethal damage would better simulate a mental blast.
3. (Nitpicky English-Teacher Editorials) (a) Don't use "whilst" to mean "while." It's somewhat affected, and often incorrect. (b) Make singular vs. plural usages agree; in the quote from #1, above, it should be "or "each time he or she gains a new level, he or she unlocks the knowledge of one or more new powers, as shown in the table," or, "as psions gain levels, they gain the knowledge of new powers, as shown in the table." ("They" refers to a plural subject).
Glad you liked it. :D I can see the editorial comments as valid. More cut-and-paste errors. I can also the see the value of putting the table first and the level the power is gained, for the discipline bit.
I'm not in hurry to look at the English-teachery bits. I'm an English teacher too, but the 3.X rules are not written in 'correct' English. They use bizarre lawyer speak. :D If you look at the document, it's all over the place in terms of English, from being pasted and cobbled together. What's important is that the rules are understood. We're not going for classic literature here. :D
2. (Mechanical) Mental hammer should maybe deal nonlethal damage, rather than force damage. As is, it's better than the evoker's energy ray (no critters have force resistance), and nonlethal damage would better simulate a mental blast.
I'm not too sure about this. There was a bit of discussion on Crimson Hawk's thread, about the level of damage a force effect could deal and be balanced. In the end, the difference between a d4 and a d6 is very little, after you include the bonus for level.
But the damage should be force as it's the 'psi energy'. Nonlethal damage would be a good option, but it throws up too many problems. E.g. Knocking out creatures instead of killing them and then having the party trying to deal with a tied up Orc (etc). This can really slow the game down. Also making it purely 'mental' can render it useless in a lot of situations.Remember that the disciplines do NOT give a bonus granted power and that manifesters do NOT have any cantrips. That makes for quite a big difference when you consider that a) they have to burn through their ppp to get the essential 0-level effects (e.g. detect magic, light etc.) and b) they are a granted power down anyway.
Mental Hammer is a bit better because it incorporates these 'missing' powers. I think I typed about this in the design notes.
Thoughts?
Peace,
tfad
2. (Mechanical) Mental hammer should maybe deal nonlethal damage, rather than force damage.I'm not too sure about this...
Yeah, I can definitely see where you're coming from, as far as the "KOed orc" thing goes. Hmmm... maybe if the damage varied by discipline? Dunno. I'll have to think about this some more, after I read the rest of the document.
Thanks again for the PDF, tfad. Really nice "Alpha" for psionics.
I hae been making psionic notes with each Alpha release and have started to organize them into my own version of Pathfinder Psionics.
Note that Psions & Psychic Warriors did have 0-level Talents in the previous 3.0 Psionic Handbook.
Also, yes the Wilder is a problem. It is the only class that get worse as it advances because you have a greater chance of Enervation as you manifest powers of higher levels.
Here is an overview of what I am working on;
Pathfinder Psionics
Race Conversion
1: Naturally Psionic: You gain 1, 2 or 3 bonus power points each character level you gain in any class. A Naturally Psionic monster gains the bonus for each hit die. Note, the Kalashtar of Eberron get this, but other psionic races did not.
2: Psi-like Ability: You also gain this power as a bonus power known to your list of known powers.
3: Githyanki Psi-like abilities are spread over multiple levels, do the same with all psionic races with multiple psi-like abilities.
Skill Conversion
1: Autohypnosis becomes the skill controlling Psionic Focus in place of Concentration.
2 Psicraft will parallel Spellcraft and add Knowledge (Psionica)
Psion Conversion
1: Restore 0 level Talents from 3.0 Psi Hdbk, restore lost powers, bring in powers from Mindscapes and then make some “lesser” versions of current 1st level powers
2: Eliminate Discipline power lists and fold those powers back into Psion/ Wilder list
3: Expand Metamorphosis, Astral Construct, Psionic Charm into multiple powers
4: Alter Energy powers so that you must choose a single energy type for each power at the time you gain it. Add an augmentation that allows you to change the type of energy. This allows a “fire-theme” psion, but still allows you to manifest a different energy type when needed.
5: Create Specialist Disciplines like wizard’s schools, including a new one for a generalist Psionicist using the 3.0 Emulate Power to mimic the Erudite.
Each specialist gets a bonus power chain at 1st level that restores the Astral Construct I - IX to the Shaper, Psionic Charm to the Telepath, Metamorphosis to the Egoist, Telekinesis to the Kineticist, Teleportation to the Nomad and Precognition to the Seer.
Others have to take each power one at a time.
Add additional abilities that fit the spcialist's theme; Comunication for Telepaths, Hitchhike for Nomads, etc.
6: Create Psychic Bond for choice of Psi Crystal or Psionic Focus (Item)
7: Add more Augmentations, including Specialist only augmentations like Psionic Levitate, it allows only Nomads to move horizontally.
8: Restore the lost feats & powers from the 3.0 Psi Hdbk, like “Sever the Tie” and the Single Energy powers like “Bio-Current”, now with Augmentations that allow you to shape and manipulate it better.
9: Add D20 Modern powers since they are OGL also.
Psychic Warrior Conversion
1: Add Armory Bond to create a “Soul” weapon or armor/ shield you can summon and enhance, similar to Call Weapon/Armor.
2: Add augmentations to Fighter Bonus feats that can be achieved by sacrificing your psionic focus, like the feat boosts in Book of Experimental Might II (Malhavoc)
3: Add 0 level talents back from 3.0 Psi Hdbk.
4: Add Weapon & Armor training as per Fighter
Wilder Conversion
1: Replace the entire Wild Surge/ Enervation/ Surging Euphoria mechanic
Roll d6, 1-2 Fortitude 3-4 Reflex 5-6 Will
Save vs your power including the Wild Surge bonus;
Failed save: you Wild Surge then suffer Enervation
Make your save: you Wild Surge as normal
Critical Miss (1): You suffer Enervation and the power fails
Critical Success (20): You Wild Surge and gain Surging Euphoria bonus equal to your Wild Surge bonus, chance of Euphoria increase with each additional +1 to Wild Surge, at 3rd level: Critical Success (19-20), at 7th: Critical Success (18-20)
Enervation you lose Power points equal to your level and suffer an effect based off which save you failed; Fortitude= Fatigued, Reflex= Stunned, Will= Dazed, until the end of your next turn.
Add new feats to reduce chance of enervation and increase chance of Euphoria or share it with others.
2: Add 0 level talents
3: Add Inculcations; they are Bonus Abilities/ Powers/ Feats similar to Sorcerer bloodlines, Base off Skills? Traumatic events? Ardent mantles?
4: Add Survival skill to skill list as it is mentioned in the Wilder’s background.
Soul Knife Conversion
1: Add power points, Power progression and limited Power list (Force, Movement & Weapons)
and limited level access 1st -4th with advancement similar to Ranger or Paladin.
2: Note that the new feats every other level will allow more access to Soul Knife feats from Dreamscared Press’s Kensai Feats.
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I am playing a Kalashtar Shaper in Seekers Pathfinder STAP. These changes are great and many things seeker and I discussed have shown up in your new revision (i.e. Knowledge Psi + Psicraft as separate skills, bonus powers at first level at will). We came up with some questions and alterations of our own.
1) Since Kalashtar get a racial bonus to Power points (per level), is it possible for them to choose the Symbiont gift?
2) If yes, does that mean one additional Power point per Psion class level or One additional Power Point?
3) If it means "One Additional Power point" how about changing it to giving out "Psionic Talent" as a bonus feat. (+2 Fortitude equals the feat 'Great Fortitude', the +1 hp a fraction of Toughness).
4) This increase of available Power Points will lead to heavy Overchanneling. With the Talented feat, this will become too powerful. Our suggestion is to change the Talented feat: Change it from no damage to subdual damage. That way Overchanneling can still take out a Psion, but is not deadly per se.
First of all, thanks everyone for your interest and comments! My group and I really get a kick out of hearing that it’s being used and enjoyed. It’s also awesome to get some actual psionics discussion going – all too often the threads get derailed with ‘psionics r teh sux’ comments. Give yourselves a round of applause, you’re beautiful! :D
You should add the SRD and your group's copyright notes under 15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE.
I’m not a legal-dude, and we’re not all that interested in copyrighting it. I mean, if someone wants to try charging for it or claiming full credit they can do. It’s out there now, too late! Although, you should let me know if there’s something we need to add. I just pasted the licence agreement in and added the comments re: it’s all open content. Should I have done something else? :D
Hmmm... maybe if the damage varied by discipline?
Nice idea, but we’ve not had any trouble with the damage being force damage. Varying the damage by discipline is an okay idea, but I don’t think, practically, it’s going to be possible. There aren’t 6 types of damage that are balanced against each other. If you’re doing that then the guys who get sonic or force damage will be better off than the guys who’re dealing fire or acid.
We’ve not had any trouble with it being force damage. Please, do post any changes you’re making for your group though! :D(STUFF)
Great to see some of your ideas! Had some thoughts, some of which are repeated from the design notes. :D
Re: Race comversion pt3 – The Complete Psionic book (WotC) already did this and it’s quite good. You may want to look at it as they've done a lot of the work for you!
Re: Psion – That’s a hell of a job! Good luck! :D I’d like to have done something much larger, but I was trying to stick with Pathfinder’s goal of backwards compatibility. You should share when you’ve got this done. :D
Re: 0 Level Talents – Yeah, I remember those. I didn’t want to go there though as the 3.5 distinction of not having 0 levels was a nice one, makes the two sources of power feel different. It also allows for a boost in power, which in my design, paid for the force damage. If they’d have got something like 0 levels, then it’d have to have been a smaller damage, like non-lethal or something. And that creates too many problems.
Re: Armory Bond – You should be careful that this doesn’t step on the Soul Knife’s toes too much.
Re: Soul Knife powers – You should be careful that this doesn’t step on the Psychic Warrior’s toes too much.
See what I did there? ;D The two classes only really have the powers/lack of powers difference between them and breaking down that barrier could harm both classes. And powers, such as ‘prevenom’ and ‘graft weapon’ only serve to make this barrier even thinner. My advice would be to only do one of these two changes. Otherwise the classes are going to come out looking very similar.
Re: Changes to wild surge/enervation – You should probably look closely at this and give it a thorough testing. I’ve split the points out below, not to be picky, but to highlight some of my thoughts so you can look at them and tell me I’m wrong. :D
Saving vs. Your own power is a bad idea as it penalizes players for having a high ability score.
The critical miss chance makes it a very risky move to surge.
The surging euphoria bonus is not guaranteed anymore, reducing the class feature to a ‘lucky strike’. That’s not fun.
Losing power points equal to your level sucks because as you go up in level you get worse as the penalty gets higher. This was something that my group had a real problem with as it doesn’t look too bad on paper, but in play it sucks. Again, you’re penalized for getting better.
Adding different effects for different saves is a cool idea. But the penalty for the Wilder’s lower saves should be less harsh as they’re almost guaranteed to fail the roll if it’s based on the power’s save. Remember the save just got higher through surging also! And having the save randomly determined is a bad idea as the Wilder cannot prepare for it. If it was based on the power used then the Wilder would at least know before hand, whether or not they stood any chance of making their save.
Overall, that’s a great presentation on the Wilder but all of your changes seem to really punish the Wilder for surging at worse, and at best make the whole thing very chancy. And that’s not powering up the class, but taking it down. Also it’s not for everyone.
Please post some full write ups of how this is supposed to work so we can see it in action. I’m keen to give it a go! :D
We came up with some questions and alterations of our own.
1) Since Kalashtar get a racial bonus to Power points (per level), is it possible for them to choose the Symbiont gift?
2) If yes, does that mean one additional Power point per Psion class level or One additional Power Point?
3) If it means "One Additional Power point" how about changing it to giving out "Psionic Talent" as a bonus feat. (+2 Fortitude equals the feat 'Great Fortitude', the +1 hp a fraction of Toughness).
4) This increase of available Power Points will lead to heavy Overchanneling. With the Talented feat, this will become too powerful. Our suggestion is to change the Talented feat: Change it from no damage to subdual damage. That way Overchanneling can still take out a Psion, but is not deadly per se.
Welcome aboard! Thanks for the questions, I’ll do my best.
1) Yes. Any race can choose the gift. If your race already has a symbiosis thing going on to any degree, you can either have another one, or rule that the gift is really a part of the symbiosis you’ve already entered into. There’s no reason why a symbiotic-Psion would’nt get a little more out of the relationship than a non-Psion.
2) Just plus one. Plus one single power point. The gifts are very small and only grant a minor bonus. If the gifts scaled by level, the Psion would start to get a little too much. The main bonus you get from the symbiosis is the extra class skill. I imagine that this probably something the little creature inside you knows and you can ‘tap’ into that knowledge.
3) Feel free to make this change to your games, but the plus any one cross-class skill is already worth ‘a feat’. Under the Pathfinder rules, that gives you +3, just like the skill focus feat. The +1 ppp is the same as ‘half of toughness’, or in this case, half of talented.
4) Well, it’s only +1, not +1 per level, so there’s no real problem with vast amounts of excess ppp. We’ve used Overchannel a lot in our games and never found it to be over powered. It’s a strong feat, for sure, but not over powered. Proof of that, I think, is that not every psionic character takes it. With the damage, we’ve found it’s a much more attractive feat for Psychic Warriors than the Psion.
But again, feel free to make these changes to your own game. Although these changes are based on our games, I’m sure that they are very different to everyone else’ games. What works for one, may not work for another. :D
Thanks again to everyone for the great chat; keep it coming!
Peace,
tfad
Psion Conversion
9: Add D20 Modern powers since they are OGL also.
Aren't most of them 3.0 powers with some name changes? BTW Dark Psion are you the same Dark Psion who co-wrote the alternate psionic class features with Mark Jindra for the last Mind's Eye articles?
Here's my group's update for the core psionic classes, based on our playtest results with the Pathfinder alpha documents.
Give 'em a download and let us know what you think!
Peace,
tfad
Why not change the force damage to psychokinetic damage to correspond with the psychokinetic weapon trait:
"Upon command, a psychokinetic weapon glows from the inside with lethal psionic energy. The energy does not harm the hands that hold the weapon. Such a weapon deals an extra 1d4 points of damage on a successful hit. This extra damage is ectoplasmic in nature and is not affected by damage reduction. Bows, crossbows, and slings bestow this ability upon their ammunition. "
It's already out there and keeps things consistent.
Yo!
Interesting idea, but this:
This extra damage is ectoplasmic in nature and is not affected by damage reduction.
causes alarm bells to ring! That's much more powerful than a force effect. Seriously, we've played through up to level 17 and had no problems with game balance, using a force effect. Give it a try! It comes up less often than you'd think. :D
Peace,
tfad
Yo!
Interesting idea, but this:
This extra damage is ectoplasmic in nature and is not affected by damage reduction.causes alarm bells to ring! That's much more powerful than a force effect. Seriously, we've played through up to level 17 and had no problems with game balance, using a force effect. Give it a try! It comes up less often than you'd think. :D
Peace,
tfad
I suggested this because it's an established mechanic so that if people question you about it you just point them to the XPH.
What damage reduction is effective vs force effects? I was under the impression that DR didn't work against force effects. Though I could very well be wrong.
If DR is effective versus the Force Hammer then I see no problem with it. Though what would it count as for overcoming the DR? Blunt? Magical? Probably both?
FYI - I'm also reviewing the Soul Knife (I love playing Soul Knifes) and I hope to get back to you soon.
DR doesn't work, but SR does.
I suggested this because it's an established mechanic so that if people question you about it you just point them to the XPH.What damage reduction is effective vs force effects? I was under the impression that DR didn't work against force effects. Though I could very well be wrong.
Right then, so the two (psionic damage vs force damage) would effectively be the same. People just tend to be a little more leery of force damage.
Very Interesting....
Kudos for doin' the dirty work!
Aren't most of them 3.0 powers with some name changes? BTW Dark Psion are you the same Dark Psion who co-wrote the alternate psionic class features with Mark Jindra for the last Mind's Eye articles?
Psion Conversion
9: Add D20 Modern powers since they are OGL also.
Yes, I have "brainstorms of creativity" time to time, usually when I am really bored at work.
And there are a few original powers in D20 Modern, I have always liked Bioweapon and not just for the cool "lightsaber sound effects".
Cool Stuff, I am trying to convince the powers that be here at Paizo that if they add Psi stuff right away, I will take all my shares out of Hasbro and invest in in Paizo stock! Just give me some love!
I have a couple of suggestions about the Psychic Warrior v. Fighter to keep them seperate. I like the Pathfinder Fighter as is and am not a fan of your Psychic Warrior mimicing its abilities. I beleive a PW should be a combo of mind and body. A few suggestions
Fort and Will as the strong saves
By Level
3: Psionic Body, a Psychic Warrior receives this as a bonus feat at 3rd level( a must in most Psychic Warrior builds I have seen)
6: Psionic Bond; A Psychic Warrior attunes himself with a single weapon. This bond allows the PW a +1 insight bonus to hit and damage. This increases by +1 at 10,14,18 level. The PW can also call the weapon to hand with an instant thought.( This is iin keeping with the mind and body, and not stepping on the fighters toes of generalized weapon mastery)
9: Battle Insight; A PW becomes attuned to a point where he reacts on an instinctual level. The PW gains a +1 insight bonus to reflex and Initiative checks. This increases by +1 at 13, and again at 17.( A different look at how the Armor specialization works for the Paizo fighter, instead making the PW more instinctual on the battlefield)
12: Ubiquitous Vision; The PW attunement of mind and body has allowed him to be less apt to be caught by surprise. He gains Ubiquitous Vision(as the Power) as a Permanent ability.
15: Psychokinetic Strike; The PW has learned to channel his power through his bonded weapon. As a Free action once per round, a PW can charge his weapon with 1PP to add +1d6 Psychic damage. The PW can charge his weapon with pp equal to 1/2 his PW level
Example: Erik the 17th level PW chooses to charge his weapon with 8pp to his weapon, and on his next strike will add and additional 8d6 of Psychic damage.
With the PW limited number of PP, this ability isnt abusable as it seems
20: Bonded Critical; a 20th level PW has become so attuned with his bonded weapon, that the weapon in his hand gains either the Body Feeder or Mind Feeder special ability.
This version of the PW makes him a unique class unto itself, instead of a variant of the Paizo fighter.
Just my suggestion
Cool Stuff
Yo!
The reason we copied the Fighter was because the Psychic Warrior originally (3.5) copied the Fighter with a similar progression. Essentially trading BAB and HD for the power progression and ppp. When the Fighter got updated, we simply ported the changes across, although modified slightly as you saw.
I've seen a lot of suggestions similar to yours, suggesting that the Psychic Warrior should have some kind of 'Bonded Weapon'. When discussing this in our group, we all had the same idea - simply put, it takes away the only unique feature a Soul Knife has. It's for this reason also, that the Soul Knife was not given any powers, instead treating the ppp pool like a Monk's Ki pool or a Barbarian's Rage pool. Although obviously with a nice synergy with the other psi-classes (and multiclassing potential!). :D
Great to hear your ideas though. Something we considered, but ultimately not included. If I, personally, were doing a redesign instead of a back compatible update then I'd be inclined to agree with you and perhaps axe the Soul Knife, or return it to being a PrC. But as it is, the Soul Knife stays and the Psychic Warrior continues to resemble the Fighter. :D
Please post here any playtest results you get from using your updated Psi-War - I'm interested to see how it works (especially if there's also a Soul Knife in the group). :D
Peace,
tfad
I am in agreement with you that the soulknife may need a redesign. In my gaming group we are currently testing pathfinder fighter, bard, cleric and Wizard, monk and I am the sole PW. We based our idea around the fact the PW should be a truly seperate body and mind fighter. We are currently at lvl 9 and the only other idea we have come up with is maybe adding the Mantle ideas from the ardent class, so I am currently testing that theory out now. But again, Paizo is killing me with no Psi support in the near future, give me some love ppl!
Part of the problem with the Soul Knife is what class is it emulating?
Is it a Psychic Rogue using his Mind blade to stab you in the back?
Is it a Psychic Fighter with a built in Lighsaber?
Is it a Psychic Monk schooling people in Wuxia styles?
Throw in the SoulBow PrC from Complete Psychic and you are just a Kame-Hame-Ha away from Dragonball Z.
The Deamscarred Press book, High Psionics: Soulknives has several variant versions that show just how versatile this class can be. And when you consider the added feats that come with Pathfinder and the Kensai feats from Dreamscarred Press, this class becomes even better.
I do like the idea of giving the Soulknife some power points, this makes Expanded Knowledge a more viable choice and I give them the Hidden Talent feat (XPH pg67) at first level in place of Wild Talent.
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My question is how on Earth do we fix psionic powers that have an XP cost? Do we require some sort of massively expensive psionic focusing crystal that then shatters after use? Or maybe we say something like the PP that were expended to manifest the power are "lost" for a period of 1 week, then recover at a rate of 1 PP per week?
I am in agreement with you that the soulknife may need a redesign.
Part of the problem with the Soul Knife is what class is it emulating?
This has been a problem with the class since day 1. The design notes I included explained how we answered this question. Basically, every Soul Knife we've seen was played as a hit-and-run character, so we built on that basic model. I think that class was only added as they were down on page count or something and had to fill the space. Did anyone use them in 3.0?
Which leads us nicely to:
adding the Mantle ideas from the ardent class
The Ardent and the Divine Mind used to be a single class, but where split apart for some reason. Again probably related to page count. This also explains why their flavors overlap and don't seem all that well thought out.
I actually really love the concept and it fits very well with the Planescape setting. However, I'd not add any of their abilities to the Psychic Warrior, as again, you're taking away from those other classes. :DI've thought about updating the classes from the Complete Psionic, as I have notes on them also. But I'd thought I'd wait and see how reactions went to the core psi-classes and wait for any changes in the Beta that might cause us to re-examine the changes already made.
Please post your Ardent-included progression and any notes you have, The Italian, I'd really like to see these! :D
Which leads us nicely to:
how on Earth do we fix psionic powers that have an XP cost?
Simply use the same formula as with spells in the Alphas. I think it's 5x the XP cost in GP. If in any doubt, default these costs into crystals.
Where this formula breaks down, I think, is when I looked at updating the Erudite from the Complete book. GP cost is a bad way to base a class ability/power, especially one so potentially crazy as 'learn any power you like'. Any ideas on this are welcome! I'll post some of my own thoughts when I've got access to my notes. :DOnce again, thanks for the great psi-orientated chat!
Peace,
tfad
I've taken the files down to update the copyright information and to deal with the layout and errata issue above. They will be back up ASAP. I will respond to the erudite comments when I've got a mo.
I don't appear to have the option to edit my posts, so I've posted again here. Here are the links to the new files, including updated copyright information, the con/dex errata (as above) and the inclusion of the level the ability is gained at, with the discipline power text. The table remains located after the descriptions, for personal layout preferences.
There were over 150 downloads in the last week - so a big thank you to everyone who grabbed a copy! And a double thank you to those who came by here and posted their thoughts afterwards. I really appreciate the chance to discuss psionics, an oft neglected gaming staple. :D
Rather naively, I figured that everyone who grabbed the update would also grab the design notes. That didn't happen (less than a third of you did!), so I thought I should just advertise it a little here. :D
Included with the design notes (both versions) is Crimson Hawk's awesome Psychic Bloodline for the Pathfinder Sorcerer. It was something hashed out on these boards and is well worth taking a look at. I know it's something I will be using in my games. :D
Re: The Erudite - I don't think the problem is letting them learn any powers or spells they choose. The problem is with how to measure or quantify how many powers they can learn without an XP cost. GP is not as good a measure, but I think it's the only viable option. However, the costs need to be revised from the Complete book. I'm working on something (casually - I'll not get a chance to fully test it in a while) and would be happy to post it when I'm done. The question I'd like to ask is:
As they don't have any disciplines, what granted powers or other bonuses would you like to see the Erudite gain?
I have my own ideas - but won't share until it's a little more polished.
Would there be any interest in a similar PDF, that covers the classes in the Complete book? :D
Peace,
tfad
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I can, with a lot of displeasure, I guess accept the focusing crystals idea for powers that used to have an XP cost. My big problem is what it now says about Psions. These were characters who didn't need anything, anything to use their powers beyond their own mind. Now, for several powers, they're just as tied to gems and little doohickeys as wizards, clerics, and other spellcasters. Pathfinder's just killed another little bit of psionics' uniqueness.
Edit: And what the heck does this say for the Unbodied and Psion Uncarnates of the world? "Oh sure, abandon all trappings of the material existence... except for these gems that you'll still need to use to activate some of your powers. Sorry."
There needs to be an option to burn XP in place of expensive material components. Sure, let the gp expenditure be the default, but some creatures just don't have any earthly reason to carry around stuff, other than an arbitrary and somewhat unnecessary dictate from the rules.
Angry Stuff
Dude - I totally get where you're coming from! There is no 'perfect fix' that we can make here, anything will look like the band aid it is. But let's not take it out on Pathfinder though. The Paizo guys are being very good to us with Pathfinder. :)
My suggestion, as something we've done in our games for years, is to allow the PC just to scrub off the GP if they have it. Need a 5000GP diamond? Just scrub off 5000GP and be done with it. It doesn't effect the game balance as the cost is still paid, and stops the plot from grinding to a halt as the PCs stomp all over the world looking for the best price in diamonds (after all, the rules say 'worth X gold' - doesn't mean you can't get a better price....). It doesn't have to break the belief in the game if you're all willing to just move on. :D
Not perfect, I know. But it'll do for now. :) Also remember that there is nothing to stop you from keeping the XP mechanic or any other you choose, from 'older' editions. We're still using the Scry skill.... ;)
Peace,
tfad
Sorcerer's now get Eschew Materials as a bonus feat. Also, as far as I'm aware, Psi-characters do not need any material components unless there is one listed for the power - and this only happens in the case of some of the higher level powers.
I believe the discussion above is referring to Pathfinder's removal of XP costs, which has led to Psi-characters needing vast quantities of gold to pay the previous XP cost.
Peace,
tfad
another thing that needs to be fix with psionics is that they can wear armour with no spell failure, all it take is to mult into melee class and bang full plate wizard-like PC. i do understand WHy they SHOULD get this but we need to limit them, maybe make the armour make they make a hmmm well would say conc but they removed that so psicraft check with check penalty as bonus (DC 15+power lvl+check penalty) or lose power
But Psionics is very different to magic and less powerful - arcane spell failure does not apply for game balance and flavor reasons. Plus adding it would render the Psychic Warrior class pointless.
Spell failure represents the armor stopping you from moving freely to cast your spells, powers don't require moving so aren't subject to it. Plus a Psion in full-plate is not the same as a Wizard in full-plate - they have different strengths and weaknesses. Although the two classes are analogous to each other they are not identical.
Plus a Psion/Wilder/Wizard/Sorcerer can already give themselves a decent armor class by using various powers and spells. In fact, they would be lowering their AC if they wore armor, in many cases! Give them a break! :D
(STUFF)
2nd ed. psionics were terrible, as were 3.0. What 3.5 gave us was a well balanced system that offered psionic classes a unique role.
I still don't understand your problems with a manifester in armor, a Psion or Wilder can get their AC higher by using powers and augments, whilst a Psychic Warrior is supposed to be wearing armor. Also, if the player wants their character to be able to wear armor, for whatever reason, they should be able to do so. We are well past the old days of arbitrary mechanical limitations. :D Wizards can wear armor if they want to, as they should be able to. The same goes for psychic characters, but for them there is flavor (do not need to wiggle) and mechanical (not as powerful as arcane casters) reasons for the system to not penalize them as much (because it still costs them feats and/or manifester levels).
Judging by your posts and concerns, we have very different games and very different expectations of our PCs. Each to their own. ;D
Peace,
tfad
Re: GP cost for Powers with an XP component...
What if you used a Ability Damage or Drain mechanic (Presumably CHA to be neurtral between INT and WIS Manifesters) instead of a gp cost.
Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.
Lesser restoration (potion) 300 gp cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage
i notice you didnt comment on the whole HOW to you capture a psionic creature and stop them from using powers?
No, you're quite right, I did not. :D Like I said in my previous post, I think we're running very different games and this is not a concern for me or my group. Forcing a helmet onto a psychic character, or the ever classic "force the Wizard into armor and laugh at him" is not something that comes up. I'll let you deal with these issues. :D
I run psionic are diff as well in my games so that makes a differences as well
From experience, the transparency rules are best not ignored as making psionics different causes more problems than it solves. But again, different group, different play styles, different problems. But then again, we've never had an issue with the balance of the rules and classes in the XPH either.
Peace,
tfad
i notice you didnt comment on the whole HOW to you capture a psionic creature and stop them from using powers? that is my biggest problem ATM or more the point the PCs problem as they can safely capture a psion and get into out of them cause the min they are up they can start using powers. i didnt say that 2nd was a good system i said in 2nd they gave a way to limit them by saying helms interfer with their powers(like armour does with mages) That IMO makes sense and gives them a weakness they sorely need to balance them, wizard have problems casting in armour, psionics the same for helms.I run psionic are diff as well in my games so that makes a differences as well
Just arm your brute squad with +1 Mindcrusher Suppression saps and beat them into submission. they'll rip through any protective psionics that are active, and when they wake up it'll be with a headache and without power points... this solution also prevents them from using any Psionic Feats as you can't focus if you have no power points.
The main issue here is that in portraying Psionics as different you inadvertantly make psionics more difficult to combat. if you used the default rulings that Psionics are the same you could just have a single wiz/sorc/cleric with Dispel Magic and not need the Suppression enchantment on the saps.
Just arm your brute squad with +1 Mindcrusher Suppression saps and beat them into submission. they'll rip through any protective psionics that are active, and when they wake up it'll be with a headache and without power points... this solution also prevents them from using any Psionic Feats as you can't focus if you have no power points.
The main issue here is that in portraying Psionics as different you inadvertantly make psionics more difficult to combat. if you used the default rulings that Psionics are the same you could just have a single wiz/sorc/cleric with Dispel Magic and not need the Suppression enchantment on the saps.
Man! Great post - humorous and makes good points! :D
tfad
The main issue here is that in portraying Psionics as different you inadvertantly make psionics more difficult to combat. if you used the default rulings that Psionics are the same you could just have a single wiz/sorc/cleric with Dispel Magic and not need the Suppression enchantment on the saps.
What he said!
Peace,
tfad
Nice work so far! Glad to see a psionics fan take this level of initiative.
My initial complaint... I can't read it with OSX's Preview program. Fortunately, I DO have Acrobat Professional, so I can view it there. Unfortunately, Acrobat Professional seems to take forever to load.
Might be because the PDF appears to have been generated by something other than an Adobe product (Postscript printer developed under GNU?) I'm a bit out of my depth here, maybe something like MacGSView might work?
Nice work so far! Glad to see a psionics fan take this level of initiative.
Thanks! Please post here if use anything from the PDF - We're quite keen to see how this plays out in groups other than our own. :D
Might be because the PDF appears to have been generated by something other than an Adobe product (Postscript printer developed under GNU?) I'm a bit out of my depth here, maybe something like MacGSView might work?
Indeed. It was done with PrimoPDF. It's free and apart from the occasional formatting issue, works perfectly. If anyone's looking for a PDF producer, I'd recommend it. Certainly cheaper than Adobe, anyway! :D
Peace,
tfad
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Nice work so far! Glad to see a psionics fan take this level of initiative.Thanks! Please post here if use anything from the PDF - We're quite keen to see how this plays out in groups other than our own. :D
Might be because the PDF appears to have been generated by something other than an Adobe product (Postscript printer developed under GNU?) I'm a bit out of my depth here, maybe something like MacGSView might work?Indeed. It was done with PrimoPDF. It's free and apart from the occasional formatting issue, works perfectly. If anyone's looking for a PDF producer, I'd recommend it. Certainly cheaper than Adobe, anyway! :D
Peace,
tfad
First thing first ... thanks for doing this! I've always liked psionics, as long as they are somewhat rare in the game, and I look forward to downloading the PDF!
Also, a quick response to an earlier comment regarding the Soulknife: I always have envisioned (and loved the idea of) the Soulknife as a 'lightsabre' wielding D&D Jedi kind of character.
Finally, regarding creating the PDF itself ... most decent layout applications (Quark, InDesign ... heck, I think even Word) allow you to save or export your file as a PDF. Otherwise, write a postscript file and then drop it into Distiller.