Spellcraft checks to identify spells as they are cast/when you fail a save on them will be unchanged.
What use of Spellcraft are you referring to that has to do with failing a save? On a side note, I've completely never noticed that a Spellcraft check to identify a spell being cast suffers penalties for distance, etc. as Perception does; never seen them applied in game, either. Suddenly all those almost-automatic Spellcraft checks to identify spells being cast are a lot more dicey. No smart BBEG is going to be casting from closer than 10 feet away.
To your cleric concerns however, lets be realistic. You know if your ally has suddenly gone quiet and is attacking your allies after the vampire gazed at him, that hes been dominated. I've never someone cast detect magic to figure it out.
By the time parties are facing vampires, they generally know what they're getting into. I'd still require a Knowledge (religion) roll for the PC to be aware of that vampire ability, though, if they came in cold, without prior research. But I'm a mean DM that way.
I've never seen detect magic used in combat for such situations, because if your spending 3-4 rounds in combat concentrating on detect magic its likely something has gone horribly, horribly wrong.
Spellcraft checks to identify spells as they are cast/when you fail a save on them will be unchanged.
To your cleric concerns however, lets be realistic. You know if your ally has suddenly gone quiet and is attacking your allies after the vampire gazed at him, that hes been dominated. I've never someone cast detect magic to figure it out.
Also, clerics are actually better equipped than wizards to identify harmful effects; I point you towards a very underused and little-known spell that is only second level, lasts an hour/level and requires no rounds of concentration.
I'm happy for you to swap out Detect Magic in light of this change I was going to ask if anyone wanted to.
The problem with guessing is the difference between dominate person and dominate monster, much the many ways to inflict confusion. Targeted dispel works on the specific spell named so if Qhude starts pounding on us and I cast a dispel magic targeting confusion and Qhude is under the effect of Early Judgement or one of the many other ways to cause the confused status.
But this is a tad nit picking. I am willing to run with this. At least to the first TPK.
The problem with Status and the reason it tends to be unused is the 1 person per 3 levels part. To cover our party with a single casting the caster would have to be 15th level. When he gets access to it at 3rd level it would take Jakob 5castings to cover the party. So it is not really a solution for a low level party
Yeah i'd require kno: religion as well. As for spellcraft, sounds like I was quoting a rule from a different edition.
Wasn't aware you applied distance to Spellcraft checks, the way I run it as long as you can see and hear the caster and hes reasonably close no penalty.
Jakob i've never seen any group rely on detect magic in combat to deal with an effect on their ally, why give him 3/4 rounds to go at you while you figure out the aura when someone can pin him in that time instead. I think predicting a TPK from it is a bit dramatic; I do have a good grasp of mechanics and system mastery and I am convinced the change is good for the game.
As for dispel magic, you only have to name the spell effect if you are targeting it specifically. Using targeted dispel on a person will attempt to strip his highest level magical effect etc.
Finally, I think thematically detect magic being a touch spell is much cooler than a cone. Fantasy is full of wizards learning about an item by touching it and concentrating.
Yeah i'd require kno: religion as well. As for spellcraft, sounds like I was quoting a rule from a different edition.
Wasn't aware you applied distance to Spellcraft checks, the way I run it as long as you can see and hear the caster and hes reasonably close no penalty.
Jakob i've never seen any group rely on detect magic in combat to deal with an effect on their ally, why give him 3/4 rounds to go at you while you figure out the aura when someone can pin him in that time instead. I think predicting a TPK from it is a bit dramatic; I do have a good grasp of mechanics and system mastery and I am convinced the change is good for the game.
As for dispel magic, you only have to name the spell effect if you are targeting it specifically. Using targeted dispel on a person will attempt to strip his highest level magical effect etc.
Sorry the TPK was a failed attempt to inject humor. Personally I think the change will have some unintended consequences but I am happy to continue under this rubric.
Consider the next few months as a trial run for running it this way and we'll see how we go. I know its very much a legacy spell that I expected a lot of resistance to change on but I do feel it will enhance the game and as a side effect make the non spellcasters skills a little more valued.
Incidentally Status is also a witch spell so you and picklebeard could cover the party fairly comfortably by 5th/6th level.
Honestly, my clerics rarely learn detect magic, unless there's no arcane caster in the party. It just doesn't fit very well flavor-wise, in my opinion. Most of them don't take Spellcraft, either; clerics get too few skill ranks to spread them too far outside their core competencies. But it's human nature not to want lime jello until you tell me I can't have lime jello. :)
If ever a situation comes up in which a ranged detect magic could make a difference, I'm sure PoorWanderingOne and I will be sure to point it out to you. ;)
If ever a situation comes up in which a ranged detect magic could make a difference, I'm sure PoorWanderingOne and I will be sure to point it out to you. ;)
I imagine it to come up multiple times quite soon after the Trials, but thats kind of the point. Detect Magic as written is punching well above its weight as a cantrip.
Edit: Quote by Jess Door, whose posts originally got me thinking about this and whose house rule I have borrowed.
My personal houserule: Detect Magic has a range of Touch. All classes that have Detect Magic available as a cantrip have another spell added to their spell list, Greater Detect Magic, as a first level spell. This operates as Detect Magic in the book operates.
I would be happy to implement a Greater Detect Magic as a first level spell, it puts Detect Magic at about the right power level.
Qhude is unconcerned by this change, he suggests we default to the next best thing in magical trap detection....
Put the barbarian on point and follow at a safe distance ;)
Qhude is unconcerned by this change, he suggests we default to the next best thing in magical trap detection....
Put the barbarian on point and follow at a safe distance ;)
You want to be baleful polymorphed into a bunny, you be our guest. ;)
Honestly, the worst failure-to-detect-trap I've seen in play was a delayed blast fireball. The rogue who rolled a natural 2 on Perception came through unscathed; the rest of the party following him "at a safe distance" wasn't so lucky. (I was the DM in that game, or I'd be more bitter.)
Jess Door has already changed her house rule....
Ive really struggled with allowing this spell too. Any good medium ground?I had a problem with it as well. After some discussion we changed it so the cantrip doesn't go through objects. Direct line of sight only. If a caster is using detect magic and looking at an illusion, they have interacted with it and get a will save to detect it as an illusion.
Then I created a first level version equal to the current cantrip.
Her new 0-level is stronger than the range:touch version. Still wouldn't help with glyphs, wards, etc., though, as those tend to be out in the open. I presume that using it vs. doppelgangers, etc. would be similar to using it vs. an illusion and give a Perception check to register the aura. Only if you're going to do that, why not just make the Perception check and leave out the middleman?
Perhaps she caved to her players concerns ;).
I really like the idea of it being a Touch spell at Level 0, that bit i'm comitted to.
Perhaps she caved to her players concerns ;).
You're probably right in that she got tired of people throwing corner cases at her. :)
I'm asking her why she changed her mind, though, just out of curiosity. I won't be coming back here all 'Jess Door says you're wrong!'
Happy 500 posts all, despite some vacation times and severe posting inability from me at times due to accomodation, 500 in a month and a half is a nice pace.
Aye - heres to a few thousand more to come :)
I would be happy to implement a Greater Detect Magic as a first level spell, it puts Detect Magic at about the right power level.
I have nothing to say about the substance; as for the form, it would "feel" odd to me for there to be a Greater without even the possibility of a Minor. In other words, it would "feel" better to me to say that the current detect magic is now a 1st level spell, and that there's now a touch-range minor detect magic cantrip. Maybe just me?
Congo rats all for your milestone, and thanks for being so much fun to watch! :)
To be completely honest, so had I until I checked the rules again. It will make things interesting though yeah.
As Fredrik suggests, we could keep Detect Magic as is, bump to 1st level spell status, and call the cantrip version (with Touch range) Minor Detect Magic?
Edit: Poor Qhude... Those natural 1's really hurt huh.
He's a big teddybear - just needs a hug :P
It is as I feared- my landlady has been cut off from her internet by her evil ex husband she is divorcing and its unlikely that the situation will resolve before I fly to ukraine in 3 weeks. This means TEMPORARILY a much slower update rate from me, posting from my phone at the moment to let you all know... I'm hoping my players in other games catch wind of this too (I know one of my km and one of my ss players read this thread so I'm mostly covered).
Yep, player complaints:
that was the original rule, but my players complained after initially agreeing. We went over what my problems with it were. I don't like it rendering illusions useless, and I don't like that a cantrip can see through walls, etc. The touch change was simpler (just change the range of the spell), but the party argued that was too much of a nerf. We compromised, and went with the new version, which still allows illusions to work if the will save is failed, and doesn't allow a cantrip to detect things through walls.Our PbP DM is using a house ruled version of detect magic he said he got from you that has the cantrip restricted to range: Touch. Without at all trying to undermine my DM's authority, can I ask why you changed your mind about that?Ive really struggled with allowing this spell too. Any good medium ground?I had a problem with it as well. After some discussion we changed it so the cantrip doesn't go through objects. Direct line of sight only. If a caster is using detect magic and looking at an illusion, they have interacted with it and get a will save to detect it as an illusion.
Then I created a first level version equal to the current cantrip.
I guess we'll see if we're any less high-maintenance. :)
How exactly is this going to work as a touch spell? It's simple enough when identifying items, but if a caster casts the spell and then touches a person for 3 rounds, does he detect everything magical the person is wearing or carrying (i.e., rings, weapons, etc.), or only spells that are cast on the person himself (bull's strength, alter self, etc.)? What if he touches a metal box less than 1 inch thick which contains a magic item? Does the barrier-penetration still function, or would he have to open the box and touch the magic item itself to get any information?
Sadness! :(
Also...did we lose Picklebeard? He hasn't posted since August 8th.
I think Picklebeard is still around, just not posted here recently - his DM alias' has a post from earlier today.
I'm here! I'm here! I've just been drink...... i mean observing. :)
I'm here! I'm here! I've just been drink...... i mean observing. :)
I figured you'd passed out. :) Are you at the Trial of Brawn or of Athleticism?
Brawn. PB and Verithrex are cheering on their brother in arms.
Detect Magic Changes-
1. You must make a will save against an illusions DC+2 to realise it is an illusion and have its magical aura register while using Detect Magic. The increase in DC is to represent that your not really interacting with it in any sensory way (close inspection, using hands/hearing) as well as balancing a cantrip against higher level spells. This will save will be made by me in secret.
2. You will no longer be able to detect magic auras that are part of a trap until the trap is triggered. In the process of making a magical trap, part of the creation includes a permanent Magic Aura spell masking the aura. Resetting such a trap includes a re-activation of the Magic Aura spell.
These changes will come into effect at the conclusion of the Trials of Grallus.
Are things like disguise self and similar disguising effects subsumed under illusions? I would think that would be fair.
My villains have all classically made heavy use of Magic Aura so probably a non-issue.
Besides, disguise self is an illusion anyway so the above applies ^
Guess I should have noticed that. :) Seems odd that basic doppelgangers use alter self/illusion and force a save but the more powerful kind use polymorph/transmutation and don't. I'd give them a magic aura ability built in, just so as not to handicap them vis-a-vis their lesser cousins.
I am quite happy with these changes and I think it is an elegent way to fix the problems without bringing on too many unintended problems.
Jakob will keep Detect Magic.
Question: Aren't inanimate objects (like miniature ships) not subject to critical hits?
Question: Aren't inanimate objects (like miniature ships) not subject to critical hits?
Ooh, nice catch, Ansha.
Immunities: Objects are immune to nonlethal damage and to critical hits. Even animated objects, which are otherwise considered creatures, have these immunities.
Of course, I guess that would put the Trial of Brawn back into another tie-breaker.
Oops.
I've been running them as subject to critical hits and critical misses thus far so i'm not going to retcon it for the trial.
When detect magic suddenly (and foolishly) became "at will," I initially did what a lot of people do: houserule that illusion spells hid their auras as part of the illusion, and that magic traps hid their auras as part of the DC of finding the trap.
Jess Door was in our group, and she came up with a MUCH better solution.
Problem solved. Because, really, if you want to see magic auras at range, there are already 3rd and higher-level spells (e.g., arcane sight) for that.
Range: Touch.Heh, Joana you stirred up a real hornets nest eh.
I tried to put this rule into play in my existing PbP's, but my players had a bit of a fit in every one. I eventually made the following compromise and listed it in my house rules-
Detect Magic Changes-
1. You must make a will save against an illusions DC+2 to realise it is an illusion and have its magical aura register while using Detect Magic. The increase in DC is to represent that your not really interacting with it in any sensory way (close inspection, using hands/hearing) as well as balancing a cantrip against higher level spells. This will save will be made by me in secret.
2. You will no longer be able to detect magic auras that are part of a trap until the trap is triggered. In the process of making a magical trap, part of the creation includes a permanent Magic Aura spell masking the aura. Resetting such a trap includes a re-activation of the Magic Aura spell.
The hornets were stirring pretty well before I made an appearance, and they've mostly ignored me since. I'm not slinging around enough insults to get generally noticed in there. :)
Oops.
I've been running them as subject to critical hits and critical misses thus far so i'm not going to retcon it for the trial.
Meh - hopefully the difference between 3rd and 4th won't matter in the final reckoning :)
Meh - hopefully the difference between 3rd and 4th won't matter in the final reckoning :)Oops.
I've been running them as subject to critical hits and critical misses thus far so i'm not going to retcon it for the trial.
If it is, we'll totally blame the DM. ;)
Or the boats the colonials were given were specifically constructed with weak points so they'd collapse more easily when hit. ;)
If it is, we'll totally blame the DM. ;)Meh - hopefully the difference between 3rd and 4th won't matter in the final reckoning :)Oops.
I've been running them as subject to critical hits and critical misses thus far so i'm not going to retcon it for the trial.
Completely fair. Sorry for the mistake, I don't often make rules hiccups. Just forgot about object's immunities.
I don't think it'll end up being that big of a deal, personally. ^^
Yeah, since it's set up to look like a city street and there's climbing onto roofs and jumping down into back gardens and such, it seems like at least parts of the course would have restricted viewing due to the obstacles the participants are overcoming. Unimportant, though, in the long run, as Tebati's commentary is purely fluff to give me something to post about while N'bellocq finishes the Trial. :)
I'm trying to hurry :)
stupid inflatable crocodiles
Even fake ones must give N'bellocq the shivers
Tebati completely fails to get Kieran and is just taking him at face value. If both characters survive long enough, perhaps she'll learn that he has some hidden worth. ;)
Well, perhaps she will, at least if the dice decide to help out just a tad. ;-)
The basic idea behind Kieran's attitude and personality is that guy who seems to remain in high spirits and crack a joke or two even in the direst of situations. Even when focused or serious about something, such as a fight or a duel or a difficult challenge, I rather imagine him to retain his devil-may-care demeanor, at least up to a point, a trait which sometimes might make him come off as fearless or thrill-seeking or just lacking common sense, depending on the situation. Besides, if others -preferably enemies- consider him a fop or a silly man, such a thing might actually prove a boon if they choose to underestimate him.
In general, I like to have a bit of fun with my characters, so most of them are easy-going and adventure-loving guys with a joke here or a witty remark there to ease the tension.
Oh, no, I like Kieran. It's just that Tebati is a bit humorless and self-serious from the get-go; once you add in the cultural gap between her and Kieran, she just completely misunderstands his nature. If someone cracks a joke that gets the whole tent laughing, she's going to be the one who doesn't get it. "But why would a lich, an owlbear, and a kobold walk into a bar together in the first place? Liches are undead; they don't even need to drink...."
I'd like to apologise for the length of time the Trials of Grallus has taken so far in our Sargavan Saga. Unforeseen internet problems did nothing to help the problem and i'm aware that the way the Trials work means the group is often split up and with little to do but spectate.
Hope its been bearable; I have loved the character development so far, although I can't stop feeling sorry for Jakob.
I'd like to apologise for the length of time the Trials of Grallus has taken so far in our Sargavan Saga. Unforeseen internet problems did nothing to help the problem and i'm aware that the way the Trials work means the group is often split up and with little to do but spectate.
Hope its been bearable; I have loved the character development so far, although I can't stop feeling sorry for Jakob.
To quote the great Mongo "Jakob is just pawn in game of life."
I am actually enjowing the trials in a perverse way. I have no idea what will happen next though.....
Well that stunk..
AK: I'm personally enjoying the character development during the Trials. No problem here.
N'bellocq: At least you still have 5 more shots to take?