From the Magic Items Web Enhancement, page 18:
"The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory."
This is a good mechanic that allows - for example - a Fighter to create his own, personal Flaming Sword thanks to the feat Master Craftsman and a lot of ranks in Craft (Weaponmaking), without the need to have a Wizard available each day to provide him the needed Fireball spell. However, there is also a strange side-effect...
Magic Items Web Enhancements, page 22:
"To create a scroll, a character needs a supply of choice writing materials, the cost of which is subsumed in the cost for scribing the scroll—12.5 gp x the level of the spell x the level of the caster.
All writing implements and materials used to scribe a scroll must be fresh and unused. A character must pay the full cost for scribing each spell scroll no matter how many times she previously has scribed the same spell.
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires."
Following the rules written at the top, a Wizard can technically scribe the scroll of a spell he doesn't know simply adding a +5 to the DC for creating any scroll for which he has all other prerequisites (in this case, caster level and Intelligence score). Then, after he has completed to craft the item, he can easily scribe it on his Spellbook and gain it permanently, without having to find an external source, and for only half the price.
Of course, this can be easily translated as a 'magical research' (and this is good... finally a Wizard CAN research obscure spells without having to find a copy somewhere), but the cost is rather cheap...
Let's take a more, radical example.
Take a Sorcerer.
Take a Sorcerer, and give him Scribe Scrolls.
Take a Sorcerer, give him Scribe Scrolls, and pump up his Spellcraft (or Craft-Calligraphy, or Profession-Scribe) skill.
Now, you have a caster who can create scrolls of spells that he doesn't know, and can easily bypass the 'Sorcerers are not versatile like Wizards' thing.
Want to cast Knock? You can easily create a Scroll (the DC for a caster level 3 item, one prerequisite missing is 13). Sure, it costs money, but it can be done. And this is more difficult to understand than the Wizard example above.
Am I missing something? Am I understanding wrong? Does anybody noticed it before?
I think you're right, Wraith. That is a problem. I mean, the rule is there not only so that master blacksmiths can make magic swords, but also so that there are Rings of Protection that aren't associated with a religion, and, of course, not screwing arcane vs. divine casters for spells known in crafting.
But it's just not right to be able to make Scrolls or Wands of spells you don't know. Particularly scrolls, since they get copied back into spellbooks.
I suggest this as an alternative: That the +5 DC only apply if the item does not actually produce that spell effect. That is to say, a Ring of Protection doesn't actually cast Shield of Faith. A Flaming Sword doesn't actually cast Fireball. But a Scroll of Fireball does, and a Circlet of Blasting really does cast Searing Light.
I rescind my previous comment. That's too subjective: A Wizard makes sense crafting a headband that blows stuff up real good. The fact that it uses Searing Light instead of Scorching Ray isn't signifcant for that.
How about just making the 'spell in a can' items exempt from that rule? (Potions, wands, scrolls, staves)
How about just making the 'spell in a can' items exempt from that rule? (Potions, wands, scrolls, staves)
how about you just change the prices on these things.... this would fix some of the other problems listed in this section too. the key as always is what is the cost. if you raise the cost to create all magic items you counter balance the reduction from no longer needing to spend xp.
maybe a time increase, or a DC increase for a level difference.
the problem with limiting is quickly you've got to include all the others, because it's easy to create a robe that does all the things a staff does.
From the Magic Items Web Enhancement, page 18:
"The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory."
I'm not liking the ability to scribe scrolls of spells you don't know OR craft flaming swords if you can't perform magic.
I think the prerequisites that aren't met by the crafter should be supplied by someone else assisting in the crafting process.
How about just making the 'spell in a can' items exempt from that rule? (Potions, wands, scrolls, staves)how about you just change the prices on these things.... this would fix some of the other problems listed in this section too. the key as always is what is the cost. if you raise the cost to create all magic items you counter balance the reduction from no longer needing to spend xp.
maybe a time increase, or a DC increase for a level difference.
the problem with limiting is quickly you've got to include all the others, because it's easy to create a robe that does all the things a staff does.
This is a balance issue that introduces a lot of risk into the magic item creation rules.
Already, my level 3 wizard is feeling the crunch of starting with a feat (Scribe Scroll) that he cannot afford to use.
Sure, our campaign is a bit light on cashflow, by the time I hit 2nd level I had about 100gp, and needed to concern myself with lodging and expendables, so I went a whole level not using this feat.
During 2nd level I created a couple Identify scrolls but nothing else.
Now at 3rd level, I have a bit more cash, but I also have a bonded item I want to enchant. I barely have enough coin to enchant that for a simple thing like +1 Protection or +1 Resistance, so I'm still cautious about using my Scribe Scroll feat.
Further, I considered taking Brew Potion but declined - I figured, and so far rightly so, that I wouldn't be able to afford to use that feat either.
Maybe that's not a perfect example, since our campaign doesn't have chests of gold waiting for us around every dungeon corner.
However, if the price of scribing scrolls was even higher than it is, this would be even more of a wasted feat on my wizard.
So, before we arbitrarily raise item creation costs for the mere purpose of fixing a questionable rule that lets mages create items from spells they don't know, we need to consider the entire set of consequences.
I would much rather see a fix for the awkward rule, rather than making these skills even less useful to cash-poor crafters.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Low levels is perfect for scribe scroll. A 1st level spell at caster level one only costs 12.5 gold. Want to be able to cast sleep a bunch more at low levels - make some scrolls. I always make scrolls of every 1st level spell I know, so I have them when I need them, but don't have to prepare them most of the time. The price does start going up faster past level 1 spells, but you can still afford quite a bit after your first bit of loot.
or craft flaming swords if you can't perform magic.
Why? In order to successfully craft a flaming sword without beinga caster, feats have been invested and the character still needs LOTS of ranks in a skill to make up for those +5 bumps in the DC. . I mean, if you have 'Master Craftsman', 'Craft Magic Arms and Armor', and 20 ranks in Blacksmithing, I think you've demonstrated enough knowledge to make a magic sword. A magic amulet or a scroll is still out of the question: you never learned to make those things. But a sword? Sure.
I personally have no problem with a Dwarven Master Blacksmith being able to dedicate his time to making magic swords, without taking a detour through learning Magic Missle first.
I always make scrolls of every 1st level spell I know, so I have them when I need them, but don't have to prepare them most of the time.
That's fine, but the subject of the thread is about making scrolls of all the 1st level spells you don't know.
..........This is a balance issue that introduces a lot of risk into the magic item creation rules.
ok. i was just suggesting some things. how about a simple have the dc increases also increase the time to make them, and the cost to make them.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I always make scrolls of every 1st level spell I know, so I have them when I need them, but don't have to prepare them most of the time.That's fine, but the subject of the thread is about making scrolls of all the 1st level spells you don't know.
Sorry, that was a reply to DM Blake's issues with scribing scrolls being too expensive.
Maybe just limit it to non-spell-activation or completion items.
Edit: Ninja-ed by Jason, I guess it's ok!
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There also needs to be more precise language covering what exactly is a Wondrous Item, and what exactly can be made using that Crafting feat.
Certainly, in 3.5, there was no need to have any other feat (except maybe Craft Staff), since every effect could be covered by simply declaring your item 'wondrous'. I don't see anything in PF to change that.
See WotC 'Magic Item Compendium' for more egregious examples.
Elixirs should not be Wondrous Items. They should be crafted using the Brew Potion feat. Perhaps the feat could be called "Brew Potions and Elixirs", but it makes no sense to use Craft Wondrous Item.
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Elixirs should not be Wondrous Items. They should be crafted using the Brew Potion feat. Perhaps the feat could be called "Brew Potions and Elixirs", but it makes no sense to use Craft Wondrous Item.
And there is a prime example.
It's a liquid.It is drunk by, or rubbed on, the target.
It's single-use.
It can be used by anyone.
Why is it not an oil?
I recently spent ages looking for an elixir, trying several books, because I was looking in the most logical place, in the list of potions.
If you're going to rule that elixirs are created as wondrous items, then you set the precedent that all the oils can be made this way, which means all the potions can be made this way too.
In which case, why have Brew Potion as a feat?
Elixers were potions in 3.0: However, since they are not spell effects, they were moved in 3.5 and are not potions/oils.
Also, Jason already locked one thread talking about rejiggering the craft feats. He said he's going to add language clarifying what Craft Wondrous Item can and can't do, but that Elixers are probably staying where they are.
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Scroll = Wondrous Paper of Spell-Storing
Wand = Wondrous Stick of Spell-Charges
Potion = Wondrous Energy Drink
Staff = Wondrous Big Stick of Spell-Charges
Rod = Wondrous Medium-sized Stick of Magical Effects
Arms = Wondrous Pommel-stone of Enhancement
Armour = Wondrous Dinner-Plate of Protection (which just happens to be
beaten into the right shape to wear...)
Ring = Wondrous Jewellery (Hey, an amulet is a wondrous item, a circlet is a wondrous item, how about a brooch, a scarab, a phylactery, etc, etc. What, so you put it on your finger, makes it special? Whuh?)
In concern of scribing scrolls of spells you do not know:
I am going to add some language that prohibits the crafting of spell trigger and spell completion items for spells that you do not know/have prepared.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Thank you, these are really good news. I mean, I'm a big Sorcerer fan, but that strange side effect of the Craft rules left me a bit discomforted. Good to hear it will be fixed.
I thought the point of crafting magic items was to get something you don't already have. A Fighter crafting an amulet of natural armor through his craft wondrous item feat and high skill ranks allows him to get a bonus to natural armor.
Why can't a Sorcerer get access to the knock spell on an item?
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I don't think anything here needs to be limited other than the Scribe Scroll section. Specifically, a scroll can be put into a spellbook, thus bypassing the need for the single use item to be created. It can be used indefinitely from that point on.
The problem isn't getting access to an effect you couldn't before. It's that you can bypass the Spell Research rules.
The only language needed here is to slap in a "Can't bypass the spell requirement for scrolls by increasing the DC".
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If you change anything else, you'll have the problem of a large list of Wondrous Items now needing to be repriced or edited. Gauntlets of Rust can cast Rusting Grasp as the spell once per day. Amulet of Fireballs creates a fireball as the spell in limited usage.
Elixir of Fire Breath causes damage like a spell in a one-use item, but it's not a spell.. that opens the door for making "not quite spells" effects and making DM's tear their hair out as players start to legitimately bypass rules.
Look at the Stone Salve item! Stone to Flesh or Stoneskin, as the spell. Hand of the Mage: Get Mage Hand at will.
If you say "well, nothing that's even 'like' a spell", then where do you draw the line? No amulets of natural armor anymore, nope, sorry Fighter. There's a Barkskin spell out there, too similar.. you'll need to have that cast when making the item. Ugh.
The point of crafting items is that you spent time, money, and (now) are risking a cursed item to create something that has an effect that you can't normally produce. It's an item.. it can be stolen, broken, inaccessible (Hold Person prevents grabbing for that item, but not a Stilled spell).
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If you are going to have the mechanic to bypass spell requirements, then don't change anything except the Scribe Scroll feat.
*Edit* Added a couple words that more clearly explains my point.