OK, so there is a character in our group who fires arrows into combat and takes a -8 penalty. He says that the minuses come from not having Precise Shot (which gives you a -4 to shooting into melee) and the target having cover from opponents/allies standing in the way. I am wondering, he doesn't need to take that kind of a penalty, right? The cover is the -4 from shooting into melee right?
OK, so there is a character in our group who fires arrows into combat and takes a -8 penalty. He says that the minuses come from not having Precise Shot (which gives you a -4 to shooting into melee) and the target having cover from opponents/allies standing in the way. I am wondering, he doesn't need to take that kind of a penalty, right? The cover is the -4 from shooting into melee right?
He's most likely correct. Shooting into melee with an ally providing cover for the enemy is a total of -8 (-4 for cover and -4 for firing into melee without Precise Shot). Tell him to get Precise Shot asap and move to a position where his ally isn't providing cover.
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OK, so there is a character in our group who fires arrows into combat and takes a -8 penalty. He says that the minuses come from not having Precise Shot (which gives you a -4 to shooting into melee) and the target having cover from opponents/allies standing in the way. I am wondering, he doesn't need to take that kind of a penalty, right? The cover is the -4 from shooting into melee right?
Just a -4 for firing into combat.
No cover penalty.
Actually creatures can provide cover:
Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide
you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4
bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus
on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a
Stealth check.
So, technically, you don't get a penalty, they get bonus AC.
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OK, so there is a character in our group who fires arrows into combat and takes a -8 penalty. He says that the minuses come from not having Precise Shot (which gives you a -4 to shooting into melee) and the target having cover from opponents/allies standing in the way. I am wondering, he doesn't need to take that kind of a penalty, right? The cover is the -4 from shooting into melee right?
Strictly speaking, there is a to-hit penalty on firing into melee of -4 and a potential cover bonus to the target's AC of +4, which is why they "stack" into the -8 your friend is using. I say potential cover bonus because the archer could maneuver to a firing position that avoided the cover.
Precise Shot eliminates the -4 for shooting into combat, and Improved Precises Shot eliminates the +4 AC for cover.
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OK, so there is a character in our group who fires arrows into combat and takes a -8 penalty. He says that the minuses come from not having Precise Shot (which gives you a -4 to shooting into melee) and the target having cover from opponents/allies standing in the way. I am wondering, he doesn't need to take that kind of a penalty, right? The cover is the -4 from shooting into melee right?
The archer takes a -4 penalty for shooting into melee; precise shot can negate this. (p.184)
The target gains a +4 benefit to AC if he has cover from the friendly character or other obstacles; improved precise shot can negate this. He should learn how to manouver on the battlefield to eliminate this. Other characters should also be keeping it in mind, as a 5-foot-step can often eliminate it.
The net effect is a -8 to hit, but generally requires some communication with the GM to avoid the target's AC being double counted. "I shoot at the orc. I have 16 including both cover and melee." vs. "I shoot at the orc. I have a 20 including melee penalty, but haven't included cover from Smorkin."
Important clarifications, thanks. We run it as a -8 to the player's roll and I (as DM) don't adjust the enemy's AC. Technically, it is a -4 to the player's roll and a bonus of +4 to the enemy's AC.
You definitely wouldn't want to take a -8 to your roll AND have the DM up the AC by +4 hehe. That would stink.
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Soft Cover: Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a stealth check.
Ranged Attack -4 for firing into melee without the Precise Shot feat AND your target receives a +4 bonus to AC if there is an intervening creature.
Edit - So ninja'd lol
OK, so there is a character in our group who fires arrows into combat and takes a -8 penalty. He says that the minuses come from not having Precise Shot (which gives you a -4 to shooting into melee) and the target having cover from opponents/allies standing in the way. I am wondering, he doesn't need to take that kind of a penalty, right? The cover is the -4 from shooting into melee right?
Effectively yes. (there is no discernible difference between a -4 to hit and a +4 to your opponents ac)
If he's firing into combat, he should get point blank and precise shot.This will negate the -4 for firing into melee
Moving "out of line" with someone in melee combat can usually negate the cover bonus
Does an arrow of seeking by pass ..
The arrow helps if your target has concealment. Concealment is everything with a percent value.
Cover - you only see a part of the target and the target gets a bonus to the AC
Concealment - you see the whole target but it is blurry due to some special circumstances. You attack the normal target AC but you have a percentage miss chance.
Blur grants concealment to the target.
That is correct, -4 for firing into melee and a +4 to ac for the cover for the enemy. I still use to old 3.0 rules also so don't miss by the cover in my games or you will hit the cover (your allies). Precise shot removes the first and improved precise shot removes both.
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Remember, as well, that if the cover is closer to your character than it is to the target, here is no cover.
A . B . . C
A shoots past B to get C. B is one square from A, but C is two squares from B. no cover.
Vera takes full advantage of this as I use her to shoot past my teammates ears. There is a reason for the cult of he goddess Tinninitis in Alkenstar
Remember, as well, that if the cover is closer to your character than it is to the target, here is no cover.
A . B . . C
A shoots past B to get C. B is one square from A, but C is two squares from B. no cover.
Vera takes full advantage of this as I use her to shoot past my teammates ears. There is a reason for the cult of he goddess Tinninitis in Alkenstar
Not true at all!
Cover
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target's square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
Low Obstacles and Cover: A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he's closer to the obstacle than his target.
Ignoring cover only applies to to cover from low obstacles, not other forms of cover such as soft cover granted by people being in your way. In your example if A is attacking C and B is a low wall C would not have cover from A. If C was attacking A and B is a low wall A would have cover from C. If B is a person both A and B have cover relative to one another granted by B's position.