Impressions on the PF2 sheet


Prerelease Discussion


All calculations are based on level + competence + char modifier + magic object bonus: (1/20) + (- 2 / + 3) + (0 / about +10) + (1/5 maybe; the cd instead is 10 + level + char modifier.

Let's start by saying that there is no initiative bonus. They had announced it would be treated in a particular way that it is not yet possible to know. Surely perception will be used for this.

We do not even have the maneuver bonuses. Seeing the ogre's stats block I think that it is compensated with acrobatics and athletics. Always seeing that a lot of skills will not be necessary for the monsters, but only the TS that remain the only defenses with the CA, at maximum perception in certain cases.

The BAB and the skill levels to be distributed at each level do not exist, it is replaced by the level, you can just increase the values ​​with the competence (acquired at least with the progress of the level, the classic X + Int, or also with feat?).

From what I understand each class allows you to increase them as you go up with the level as before you did with the ranks, to acquire on armor, weapons, TS always with the progression of class, but especially at the center of all the feats: class, normal , skill, race, archetype are all made the same way, not only maybe increase the "dots", but possibly offer an extra move to do, so on the first page down there is few space to complete, it is all marked on page two, each item or feat can give you the requirement to take a different action, as well as the spells on page 3. In addition, with the skills you can unlock powers similar to spells, but they will be chosen, regardless of class and probably at will and above all regardless of the class. It gave me the impression of being like the White Wolf board (with the d20 system of course), but by training and putting competence, you decide then the effects to buy on the capacity you bet on (*).

For the equipment I would focus on weapons. The skills seem to shift rather than on the single weapon, on two groups of weapons only (martial or simple). This means that, together with the rune system (I still do not understand how they will work exactly), it will be more common to change weapons, perhaps exploiting special abilities that should be of central importance. The same thing maybe even for armor and shield (which more than numeric we already know that it is very tactical).

Another substantial thing, there aren't many bonuses on the AC (the various natural armor, deviation etc ...), "miscellaneus modifiers", and size. This suggests that the space for numerical optimization is limited to the magical object, the competence, the characteristics.

(*) Because I associated the pathfinder 2 sheet as a mixture between d20 and the White Wolf system:

We take masquerade's skills, but let's not focus on "pitches" that are a separate mechanical part and not part of the d20 system.

As the level goes up, he gives one more die to roll. In Pathfinder it adds a numerical bonus instead.
As the level goes up in vampires it gives fixed abilities, in pf2 these are bought with feats (or class capacity).

So here, I put on acrobatics and then on the basis of the dot I decide that it moves further to join in addition to maybe the basic ones.

So with the dots I numerically benefit in the most varied tests and at the same time increase the number of things I can do (they also said to replicate spell effects). And here the thing is similar, but expanded.

In PF2 the competence has more meanings:

to draw numerical bonus (-2 without training, 0, 1, 2, 3 legendary);
affordable feats (class, race, archetype, skills, normal talents, etc ... all) based on competence level;
abilities (the classic ones we are used to);
requirements for equipment;
and who knows what else ...

Why does PF2 seem to be balanced?

Phase 1: The math at the board is solid and has STRONG limits.

Phase 2: All the capacity (feat, spell or magical object) gives things to do more than numbers and can be a very unlimited choice (from there all the encyclopedic options that remain proportionate to the level of competence and then to the level and investment in that specific category).

Phase 3: At the end you return to the numbers for dice rolls and effects.

It is a process with watertight compartments that in the numerical phase before and afterwards is strongly linked to the numerical bridles, while it can be very various in the central phase, where however the capacities are associated with the power level (a bit like the spells, it is difficult that there is no proportion and coherence between the various levels).

I tried to do two tests at the system and its modularity:

RULE TO INSERT THE BOUNDED ACCURACY: I remove the level from all the boxes of the sheet.

RULE TO REMOVE THE MAGIC ITEMS: I take away everything apart the weapon potency (the part that increase the damage dices).

And everything should spin, at least in the numbers. Even if there is to be some other adjustment, I do not think it will be more difficult to create other alternative rules. Let's say that having read only 2 pages of the hypothetical test book it is incredible to be able to understand so much already.

 

What it seems is that at the base there is a simple rule that allows flexibility leaving the base to create 1000 thousand different capacities, but putting a narrow numerical cage from which you can not escape optimizing. This means that the development of the character is to be done on tactical choices, group strategy and above all concept.

I think that's awesome!!!!


If you look through the blogs and the recaps of the friday twitch streams, paizocon, and the glass cannon podcast you can get a lot of the questions you brought up answered. I'll provide some of the stuff I know (or think I know) here.

Firstly in the glass cannon podcast they describe specifically how initiative works in that you roll a skill associated with what you are doing or perception. Perception is the default but if you are sneaking before combat you can roll stealth instead.

The proficiency blog describes how proficiency works and that it applys to everything in the same way. In PF1 attack rolls, saves, skills, and spell DCs, all had slightly different scaling and different equations. Not all of them are Lvl+ability+item bonus+proficiency bonus (+10 if it is a DC)

A believe a dev confirmed in one of the forum posts that all characters start with X+Int mod trained skills and then every two levels can increase their proficiency in two skills (untrained->trained, treained->expert) and there are level requirements for the higher levels of proficiency. So Int modifier applies to skills but only once not every level. Rogues get more skill increases (likely bards to though that is as of yet unknown).

The weapon system is the same as PF1 simple, martial, exotic, and it looks like a lot of PCs will have simple and martial proficiency by default just like PF1. From the fighter blog we know that fighters progress in their favored weapon group faster than the others so there is still some room for weapon specialization. Though the full extent is unknown.

Overall I like your math analysis. Comparing the numbers between characters of the same level PF2 has similar bounded accuracy to 5e though having everything scale with level allows for different types of stories to be told. The thing you need to be careful about when modifying the rules is the new crit system; exceed the AC by 10 results in a critical hit, similarly fail a spell DC results in a critical failure. Keeping the +lvl to everything allows this system to thrive with the PCs dominating lower level threats and being in true danger from higher level threats. It is a system I am excited to play around with but from a sheet math perspective it might make fiddling with the numbers more likely to break the game.


There is a "par" concept in any stat of the sheet that compared with the crits give possibility to take them only if you are lower or higher in the opposed defense number.

In the case of "par" you have almost exclusively the case of success or failure. The crits are very prospective if you are much more strong or weak, moving the bar of opportunity.

So you could be visibly strong in few aspects, but inexorably weak in other, if you don't want to distribute more equitably the stats.

And it seems part of the game balance of PF2.

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