How many deities can dance on the head of a pin?

[Indagare]

Actually not quite that, but similar theological flummery. Basically, I'm struggling with a problem we don't usually have to deal with on Earth: how many deities of the sun or moon can there be?

Here deities aren't real (if they are evidence is lacking), but in Pathfinder they certainly are real and have real (even testable) effects. So on Earth you can have a thousand deities of the sun being male or female or whatever and there's no conflict of reality since it's just made up. Similarly with the moon. But in Pathfinder there is a real deity of the sun/moon and (presumably) only one.

This means the Gnolls can't believe there's a Gnoll sun goddess and Humans believe there's a Human sun god and both be right (unless the deity is changing gender and species which, while possible, seems like a lot of work). It's also equally possible something powerful enough is pretending to be said deity, but that also seems like something the real deity would want stopped pretty quickly.

So is there a good way to accommodate multiple views of a singular deity outside trickery or should everyone worship the same deity of sun/moon?

Note: I'm specifically referring to deities of the sun and moon because there tends to be only one of each, so there's not a lot of ways multiple deities could claim it. I have no trouble with multiple deities of war or weather since they could be fairly local.

[blahpers]

Indagare wrote:

But in Pathfinder there is a real deity of the sun/moon and (presumably) only one.

Why would one presume this?

[VoodistMonk]

Well, everyone cannot be right about who created or moves the sun. Somebody made the sun, that somebody is presumably an individual and unless they bend to the will of whomever prays to them, it does seem ridiculous.

It does lead one to believe that someone is an imposter, somebody's stories are flat out wrong, or there are multiple deities working together to operate one stupid star, and they have different religions for each one.

One religion prays to the chic who created the sun, others pray to the dude that moves it? What are the chances of that being how this is supposed to work?

But good luck finding credibility or congruency with any religion... even in fantasy land.

[Indagare]

blahpers wrote:

Indagare wrote:

But in Pathfinder there is a real deity of the sun/moon and (presumably) only one.

Why would one presume this?

Admittedly there are settings with multiple moons, but settings with multiple suns are pretty uncommon. I mean, in a setting with a hundred suns could have a hundred deities of the sun with no issues.

That said, if there's only one sun I'm not sure how to work out more than one deity for said sun.

VoodistMonk wrote:

Well, everyone cannot be right about who created or moves the sun. Somebody made the sun, that somebody is presumably an individual and unless they bend to the will of whomever prays to them, it does seem ridiculous.

It does lead one to believe that someone is an imposter, somebody's stories are flat out wrong, or there are multiple deities working together to operate one stupid star, and they have different religions for each one.

One religion prays to the chic who created the sun, others pray to the dude that moves it? What are the chances of that being how this is supposed to work?

But good luck finding credibility or congruency with any religion... even in fantasy land.

Well, that's why I created this thread. I'd like to at least try to work something out that will make sense.

[Val'bryn2]

Because just because a deity has domain over the sun doesn't mean others can't have it as well. Sarenrae is a goddess of the sun who encourages people on the path of redemption. Nurgal, the demon lord, however, represents the harshness of the sun. Neither"controls" the sun, but both are representatives of its power.

You're thinking in terms of the deity is the object they represent, when it's more like the idea was there, the gods emerged as a representative of the idea, and each is a fragment of the whole.

[blahpers]

Indagare wrote:

blahpers wrote:

Indagare wrote:

But in Pathfinder there is a real deity of the sun/moon and (presumably) only one.

Why would one presume this?

Admittedly there are settings with multiple moons, but settings with multiple suns are pretty uncommon. I mean, in a setting with a hundred suns could have a hundred deities of the sun with no issues.

That said, if there's only one sun I'm not sure how to work out more than one deity for said sun.

Decouple the being(s) responsible for creating the sun from the being(s) who have the sun in their portfolio. Then you don't have to worry about whose creation myth is "right". Which is good--odds are the campaign setting designers will tell you how Aroden died before they resolve which (if any) creation myth is the real deal.

[Val'bryn2]

We actually already have evidence that being a god of something doesn't make you the creator. Sarenrae is goddess of the sun, but so is Iomedae, who certainly doesn't predate the sun.

[avr]

It's pretty clear that in the world intended by PF gods very rarely come down to set their worshippers straight. If the stories wander from the truth and separatist clerics start heretical doctrines they still don't intervene.

In RL it looks like a lot of those old polytheistic religions started from the same stories. Given enough time - less than you'd think with oral traditions only - you can get some quite different gods from the original sources. Perhaps your sun gods have a few similarities which imply that once they might have been the same?

[Shiroi]

I designed a god for a campaign of mine years ago that might help translate a few points.

Ka, Embodiment of Fire, linked intrinsically with thermal energy and therefore has and will exist so long as there is warmth of any kind in the universe. Comprised of many aspects, which represent smaller fragments of how heat is perceived by mortals.

Shiroi, The White Fire, the warm comfort of a hearth and the healing nature of gentle heat. Monk-like in appearance.

Kuroi, The Black Fire, the destructive tendency of unchecked fire. Massive, a barbarian in heavy armor.

Aoi, The Blue Fire, the pain of being burned, a cruel and wretched Magus type.

Midori, The Green Fire, the fires of knowledge, drive, and inspiration, a fire in one's heart and mind. An archer type.

Aka, The Red Fire, cooking and purifying, changing the form of things. A warrior type, but refined.

Humans in some cultures mispronounced the name, giving birth to Ra in Egypt when the myths became concretely separate from what Ka himself stands for.

In addition, Ka or one of his aspects has had countless Avatars, mortals chosen for a life of service to the flames, granted power and youth in exchange for duty and sacrifice. In some cases, these mortal names have been claimed as gods in their own right, though worship of them is often rendered through another of the aspects.

So with all this, which one is the god of fire?

[blahpers]

Heat Miser. The answer is Heat Miser.

[Shiroi]

blahpers wrote:

Heat Miser. The answer is Heat Miser.

Well played.

[GM Rednal]

What I run with is the "aspects" theory of deities. That is, there can't be two deities of precisely the same thing, but there can be deities of different parts of things. So you can't have two general deities of the sun, but you could have a deity of the sun, a deity of the dawn, a deity of daytime, and so forth, all with Sun in their portfolio. They're similar, and may overlap a bit, but are never exactly the same.

This is, incidentally, a kind of security measure for the universe as a whole. XD Since there can't be two deities of the same thing, any attempt to ascend to a taken position is doomed to failure. (Nobody can take Pharasma's place as judge of the dead, or Rovagug's place as the god of destruction, et cetera.) It also limits the number of deities and ensures there aren't contradictory divine instructions on the natural order of things.

Pathfinder doesn't have a true ranking system, but on a related note, I use the breadth of a portfolio as a stand-in for divine power, with broader portfolios being more powerful. So, a minor deity named Duellis, lord of formal duels, isn't nearly as powerful as Gorum (the god of battles in general). A local deity of the land is far less powerful than Gozreh. And so on.

[The Sideromancer]

GM Rednal wrote:

What I run with is the "aspects" theory of deities. That is, there can't be two deities of precisely the same thing, but there can be deities of different parts of things. So you can't have two general deities of the sun, but you could have a deity of the sun, a deity of the dawn, a deity of daytime, and so forth, all with Sun in their portfolio. They're similar, and may overlap a bit, but are never exactly the same.

This is, incidentally, a kind of security measure for the universe as a whole. XD Since there can't be two deities of the same thing, any attempt to ascend to a taken position is doomed to failure. (Nobody can take Pharasma's place as judge of the dead, or Rovagug's place as the god of destruction, et cetera.) It also limits the number of deities and ensures there aren't contradictory divine instructions on the natural order of things.

Pathfinder doesn't have a true ranking system, but on a related note, I use the breadth of a portfolio as a stand-in for divine power, with broader portfolios being more powerful. So, a minor deity named Duellis, lord of formal duels, isn't nearly as powerful as Gorum (the god of battles in general). A local deity of the land is far less powerful than Gozreh. And so on.

Not fully true, they would just have to rip that position out of their current holder's hands (or other prehensile appendages). Lamashtu has already done this to somebody, apparently Besmara does it to somebody by the time of Starfinder, and I'm still waiting for a judge of the dead that doesn't have a conflict of interest born of her own failures.

[Warriorking9001]

Now I want to see a pantheon designed around the idea that the first gods were split into tons of little pieces that each culture worships.

[Warriorking9001]

Like let's do it!

[VoodistMonk]

Warriorking9001 wrote:

Now I want to see a pantheon designed around the idea that the first gods were split into tons of little pieces that each culture worships.

Ever read a book called God's Debris?

Totally not related to dungeons and dragons, but excellent book, nonetheless.

[DungeonmasterCal]

The ancient Egyptian pantheon was a complete cluster foxtrot of domains and portfolios. Some were gods of war and storms, some were goddesses of war and childbirth, one was the god of doorways and windows. They had the main nine in the Ennead (as I recall) but literally thousands of lesser gods over their long history. Some of them even changed their portfolios over time. So even in the real world you can have multiple sun gods and goddesses who also hold dominion over completely unrelated things.

[The Sideromancer]

Don't knock doorway deities, one got a month named after him.

[GM Rednal]

@Sideromancer: True, gods can be challenged for their position... but at least under my theory, nobody can outright ascend while the 'slot' is occupied. XD Conservation of Divinity, as it were. If you want to go up, someone else has to come down unless the space is open.