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A cursory glance over the list of the variety of alchemical weapons included in 1st edition makes it easy to see that there are many more kinds of alchemical weapons than just splash weapons like Alchemist's Fire or Acid Flasks. Generally, I would like to see Paizo expand the rules for alchemical weapons (especially in regards to how the Alchemist class is able to boost them) to include all of these different types of alchemical offense, not just splash weapons.
The focus on splash weapons caused their own share of issues in 1st edition. For example, my research seems to indicate that an Alchemist pouring out a flask of Holy Water on an incorporeal undead (which is the only way to target them with Holy Water) would not gain any of their benefits to splash weapons because the Holy Water is not being used as a splash weapon. Same issues with the Alchemist's Atlatl, acid/fire crossbow bolts, etc.
This topic came up at the very beginning of the comments on Paizo's latest "Secrets of Alchemy" blogpost:
I'm sure we will eventually get there, but for right now we are going to cover the basics. Once we have a groundwork for alchemy, we'll get to the crazy mad scientist/engineer type stuff.I was hoping for tripwires, landmines, and stuff like that. Maybe it's my old like of 4e, where you could set up a hazard and have your buddy shove an enemy into it.
Still, this is cool.
It seems to me that it would be significantly easier to add these "mad scientist/engineer type stuff" in later publications if Paizo does not lock down alchemical weapons to bombs-only.
An example of what I'd like to avoid is how the Bottled Lightning, which was a wholly unique item in 1E, has been altered to simply be an electric Alchemist's Fire in 2E, plus the flat-footed effect. I would much rather have the alchemical weapon rules and the Alchemist class be written so that alchemical weapons get boosted effects no matter if that weapon is thrown, used, launched, wielded, or set up as a trap.
Realistically, this shouldn't require much more than a change in how these upcoming rules are written. Any alchemical weapon is going to either have targeted effect (usually going against AC) or area effect (requiring a saving throw). Have the rules hook into those mechanics, instead of only applying to "the target of your splash weapon" and "those caught in the splash".
This also allows poisons to fall right in alongside other alchemical weapons, and would allow for the creation of other unique weapon blanches with a variety of effects, drawing inspiration from other fantasy media such as Monster Hunter and the Witcher series.
In closing, I'm very excited by alchemy becoming its own full-fledged subsystem in 2nd edition. I just hope that Paizo doesn't unnecessarily limit their own "design space" by requiring all alchemical weapons (or those used by the Alchemist) to be bombs/splash weapons only.
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For example, 1E has a fairly robust fireworks mechanic, but it never gets used because it's clunky to use, balanced around the lowest levels, and never scales with any of the Alchemist's abilities. Nobody cares about using a firework when an Alchemist's bomb does 10x the damage and has additional effects.
The only time I ever ended up using fireworks outside of We Be Goblins was when my DM allowed my Promethean Alchemist to glue grenades to the tips and work with their homunculus to fire them. So basically, we just made up our own rules to make them stronger. We rode around on a Racing Broom reskinned into a flying version of this.
Really, we could have just dropped the grenades while flying over things, but where's the fun in that?
Anyhoo, what are we talking about? Oh, yeah. Weird janky things are fun, and they're also the first to be crushed under the Streamlining Steamroller. Ehhh, I doubt we'll get much beyond the basics in the CRB, much less the play test. Anything beyond that's just cherries on top. Delicious cherries...
That said, hopefully they'll set up alchemy so that it can be expanded in fun and interesting ways as the game grows. I can't imagine that they'll give their flagship the slow release schedule that Starfinder has. Maybe we'll see what strange new inventions sweep Golarion in 4720?
Maybe. Who really knows? All we can really do is talk about it in places that the world builders might listen. Praying to Paizo, so to speak.
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I agree with this thread. I would love for other options that alchemiss can specialize in. Like the Liquid Blade. Be great if you could take alter the blade into different kinds of swords or upgrade the material into admantium or other substances, auto-include poisons into the tube it comes out of, and get a damage boost.
Anyhoo, what are we talking about? Oh, yeah. Weird janky things are fun, and they're also the first to be crushed under the Streamlining Steamroller. Ehhh, I doubt we'll get much beyond the basics in the CRB, much less the play test. Anything beyond that's just cherries on top. Delicious cherries...
I just don't particularly see how expanding the focus from "bombs" to "alchemical weapons" goes against the streamlining 2E is going for. A wording swap from Alchemists increasing damage from splash weapons as they level up to increasing damage from alchemical weapons as they level up is equally easy to understand.
As would it be for "The DC for an Alchemist's bombs alchemical weapons is equal to 10 + 1/2 the Alchemist's level + his Intelligence modifier".
Aside from that, the changes would just be in design direction, operating under the rules that any alchemical weapon/poison/trap can have its damage and DCs boosted by an Alchemist or anyone with the Alchemical Crafting feat.
I don't disagree. I think that keeping these in mind would very much be part of setting up alchemy to grow. Bombs clearly shouldn't be the entirety of alchemical offence. Alchemy just might not be as wonderful as it used to be after the reset due to word count constraints in the single CRB, yeah?
And to be honest, I'm a little cynical when it comes to streamlining in general after watching franchise after beloved franchise make choices that I don't agree with in it's name. That's a personal bias, though. It's a dim view of a broad term brought about by unpleasant experiences that have little to do with Paizo.
It colors how I view things and relate them in the absence of evidence, and I apologize for that.
And to be honest, I'm a little cynical when it comes to streamlining in general after watching franchise after beloved franchise make choices that I don't agree with in it's name. That's a personal bias, though. It's a dim view of a broad term brought about by unpleasant experiences that have little to do with Paizo.
It colors how I view things and relate them in the absence of evidence, and I apologize for that.
This 100%. OTOH, D&D 3.0 introduced some streamlining (imperfect because humans are imperfect, but it was there), but it added a whole lot of other stuff to make characters feel more complex and unique. PF kept the complexity when D&D 4.0 introduced even more streamlining.
The other risk is the super-cool names for stuff. D&D 4 reminded me of my bunkmate in the military, who was Korean American. People would ask him about what style of kung fu (not even a Korean martial art) and he would give them a name like White-Capped Blue Mountain Tiger Style Kung Fu. "Woooow! That must be good!" Grognards like me can see through that super-cool naming and it actually detracts from the game. Functional does not mean boring to those who see the core rules as a toolbox.
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Someone in the reddit thread made a good point about the differences between alchemical items and magical items in 2E, and I think they have a good point that Paizo needs to have some clear design guidelines so that the two can be distinct from each other.
My thoughts:
* Alchemical items require different crafting methods than magical crafting, and can be done by anyone regardless of whether they're a spellcasting class
* Alchemical items don't normally require resonance like magical items do (except when the Alchemist makes their free "unstable" alchemical items each day)
* Magic items, like spells, are more quantized. Alchemical items are more granular and customizable.
* Magical items can better bypass magical defenses, while alchemical items don't have to worry about anti-magic
* Alchemical items can be more easily made with natural/gathered materials if players want to put in the time and resources to do so
* Alchemical items, on the whole, have more practical effects, while magical items have more fantastical effects
* Alchemical items are most effective when you can plan for things ahead of time (the Batman approach) while magical items are better if you don't know what to expect
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I really like the OP's ideas because it really opens up build possibilities for alchemists. I like that a more melee oriented alchemist, could be mutagen focused or could use weapon blanches to stay competitive, making a very different feeling character just depending on what items they choose to create and proficiencies they decide to prioritize.
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I really like the OP's ideas because it really opens up build possibilities for alchemists. I like that a more melee oriented alchemist, could be mutagen focused or could use weapon blanches to stay competitive, making a very different feeling character just depending on what items they choose to create and proficiencies they decide to prioritize.
That's precisely my mindset as well. Given that we know that mutagen creation is going to be locked to 5th level and above for Alchemists, I would really like there to be other options available for more melee-centric Alchemist characters or those investing in alchemy.
We already know that Alchemists are going to be able to create free/scaling poisons, but weapon blanches could allow for a more direct offensive approach. We know that mutagens are specifically tuned to positively react with a creature's physiology to boost their abilities. Weapon blanches could be the reverse; exploiting specific vulnerabilities of monsters to deal additional damage. Think about it like a fusion of Favored Enemy and Sneak Attack that you have to prepare ahead of time and apply like a poison.
Similarly, I always liked the handful of alchemical ammunitions that we got in 1E (mainly in the form of alchemical arrowheads and firearm alchemical cartridges). However, due to them being "mundane" alchemy instead of the Alchemist's "magical" alchemy, they were always pretty sub-par. I would really like to play an archer or crossbowman focused on trick arrows and ammunition, like Green Arrow, Hawkeye, or Batman's specialized batarangs.
And to bring it up again, 2E alchemy seems like a pretty solid way to make player-created traps actually workable and usable, given that alchemical items have tiers of effectiveness and in-class ways to boost their DCs.
For example, 1E has a fairly robust fireworks mechanic, but it never gets used because it's clunky to use, balanced around the lowest levels, and never scales with any of the Alchemist's abilities. Nobody cares about using a firework when an Alchemist's bomb does 10x the damage and has additional effects.
I know! I even tried to figure out a way to make use of it because it's so darn cool and couldn't come up with anything! Easily the biggest waste of potential in the Alchemy Manual.
I very much agree. I actually like bombs, but have pizza every night and you'll eventually get tired of pizza, you know?
I will be watching the wording of the alchemist's boosted damage ability, "exclude people from a splash" feat, and so on when they talk about it more or when the playtest book drops. If they all specifically say "bombs" I definitely WILL complain, in the hopes of having that changed to "alchemical weapons." Heck, even with what they've shown off already it should still be changed, because an alchemist should be able to boost the hit point damage that comes with poison in the new system.
I want Bottled Lightning to regain its original flavor. I want fireworks and weaponized roman candles to be useful. I want liquid blade to be able to make any kind of weapon, and for there to be a "+1 liquid blade" and "+2 liquid blade" and so on that come with the magic weapon multiplier. I want "bottled ooze" to be an item you can choose to learn to make rather than locked behind a class feature.
And I want new items too... at least I assume these are new since I don't have the Alchemy book. Things like caltrops or shuriken made of a solidified chemical that dissolve into acid when they pierce the skin, or powders with damaging and debilitating effects beyond just sneezing itching or poison (such as a powder of rusting perhaps?).