Taunt Feat and Skill Unlock of Unchained Rogue.


Advice


Hello to everybody,
I'm making a small phantom thief with the Taunt Feat.

Taunt:

You may be small, but your remarks cut others down to size.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, Small size or smaller.
Benefit: You can demoralize opponents using Bluff rather than Intimidate (see the Intimidate skill description for details) and take no skill check penalty for being smaller than your target.

Now as I will have Bluff, Perception and Disable Device as Unlocked Skills and Now I use Bluff as Intimidate, my question is if I will get Intimidate as Unlocked Skill too or just those 3?

Any Idea?


Kender. You're making a kender.

And, TEEEEEEEEECHNICALLY, no. But, frankly, you'd be wasting skill points by putting them into intimidate in the first place. In THIS example, you're using your Bluff skill to gain the effects that intimidate provides, rather than using your bluff roll to make an intimidate check. These might sound the same, but are keenly different things.

It's like the difference between not being proficient with a club (I think that's impossible for a PC class), and trying to use your short sword to deal bludgeoning damage. A PC class will never take the -4 non-proficiency penalty on a club. But in spite of having effectively the same weapon profile as a club, a short sword used to bludgeon someone isn't a club.

You aren't actually making an intimidate check. You're basically tricking your target in to THINKING you are. You've metaphorically cast an illusion spell on your club to make someone THINK it's a short sword.


Zarius wrote:

Kender. You're making a kender.

And, TEEEEEEEEECHNICALLY, no. But, frankly, you'd be wasting skill points by putting them into intimidate in the first place. In THIS example, you're using your Bluff skill to gain the effects that intimidate provides, rather than using your bluff roll to make an intimidate check. These might sound the same, but are keenly different things.

It's like the difference between not being proficient with a club (I think that's impossible for a PC class), and trying to use your short sword to deal bludgeoning damage. A PC class will never take the -4 non-proficiency penalty on a club. But in spite of having effectively the same weapon profile as a club, a short sword used to bludgeon someone isn't a club.

You aren't actually making an intimidate check. You're basically tricking your target in to THINKING you are. You've metaphorically cast an illusion spell on your club to make someone THINK it's a short sword.

Thanks for the reference of Kender, I loved Dragonlance like no other Novel of the entire D&D Narrative... But mine is a Gnome.

I just don't have to bother for the Intimidate unlock or I have to?

My Plan is to get 5 levels of Phantom Thief and then go straight with Negotiator Bard to get a few spells and a coupple of bonus from here and there.

Right Choice?

By the way, I will be the party Face and healer at any point with wands or a few spells. So I guess that more than 3 unlocked skills and 2 Vigilante's Talents won't be necessary stay in Thief and can change to Bard.


I've actually been listening to Dragonlance at work, so it's fresh in my mind, but I also actually revamped the 3.5 Kender build.

As to Intimidate, you're literally adding the stuff from the intimidate skill's list of effects to the Bluff list of effects, and removing the most irritating part of it - that of taking a hit for being too small to be 'an effective threat.' I'd say don't bother with unlocking it. Amp that Bluff like mad, though.

I like the negotiator bard for that stuff, just remember that Bards are Charisma based and Rogues only sorta are... if you're planning to go bard, and taking Phantom Thief for other perks, don't fall into the temptation to put your highest roll in Dex without thinking about how much casting power you'll loose.

My GM didn't let me take Unchained, so Phantom Thief was faaaaar less useful to me than the True Professional Archetype (though it should be noted that THAT one isn't PFS safe, though my GM was cool with THAT, but not Unchained Rogue...)

If you're looking at being the party healer, then I have two more suggestions (They don't stack, but one is actually PFS safe)... either take Mysterious Revelation to give yourself the Life mystery's Channel ability, or take either a level of Oracle or Cleric to get Channel Positive Energy. The latter is less useful, since it's only 1d8, but that's still 5 or more shots of 1d8 to all allies in a 30' bomb plus the spells. At the lowest levels, Oracle and cleric are pretty close to on par with each other for spell casting, so the key is if you like one of the Curses better than secondary effects from the cleric perks. There's also several items that may or may not (unsure) be PFS safe that can boost the number of dice for Channeling.


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You do not qualify for or receive the benefits of the Skill Unlock for Intimidate unless you actually have ranks in Intimidate.

It's also worth noting the feat you're looking at only affects the demoralize use of intimidate, not the other uses so it's not like it's a full replacement of Intimidate. It's pretty much only to replace the combat uses of Intimidate with Bluff.


I don’t think you’d benefit from the intimidate skill unlock without also investing in intimidate. I’d just go all bard, think 6th level casting is better than anything you’d get from phantom thief. Taunt is a cool and flavorful, but how are you going to work the action economy of intimidate, it’s not hard to get your bluff/intimidate through the roof, but you need to improve it from a standard action to make it worth while. Neither class or archetype improve this and if you’re going gnome/small I’m going to assume you’re not strength based which most feats are based around for this kind of build with power attack being a pre-req. You can do the enforcer route but then that’s 3 feats including taunt. It’s just a lot of investment with not a lot of return.
I’m saying all this having run 2 halfling characters with taunt. One had a swashbuckler dip which gets a swift intimidate at 3rd level. Just pointing out it’s more flavorful and a serious character resource investment.
Also don’t forget to add the cruel enhancement to your weapon to stack sickened which stacks with shaken.


Claxon wrote:
It's also worth noting the feat you're looking at only affects the demoralize use of intimidate, not the other uses so it's not like it's a full replacement of Intimidate. It's pretty much only to replace the combat uses of Intimidate with Bluff.

It's worth countering with the following points:

1) Influencing an opponent's attitude through Intimidate only ever maxes at friendly, and starts at a minimum DC of 12 (assuming level one and wisdom 12/13 for NPC merchants and townsfolk), quickly rising as his GM gets annoyed at him, and starts making people higher and higher level. Influencing an opponent's attitude with Diplomacy starts at 16 (assuming a 12/13 Charisma) to adjust them neutral to helpful, which is even lower of a check than Friendly. And it rises slowly as his GM gets annoyed and starts making charisma-specialized key NPCs, since it's unreasonable and even insane for every random townsfolk to have a +2 charisma item, nevermind a +6. And while the diplomacy option takes only one minute, the intimidate option 1d6x10 minutes. Then you STILL have to make a diplomacy check to get whatever it is you want out of your target, which is easier through the Diplo chain.

2) While you CAN coerce your target long-term with Intimidate, if you ever fail the check (and if you're trying to run something like a mafia, you WILL eventually fail the check) everything goes to s~+# right then and there. And, like I said, all the GM has to do is start upping HD. It doesn't specify how trying to intimidate, say, an angry mob works. Angry mobs are always an option. And the fact that a low level rogue or bard with a high charisma can rather rapidly crank a Diplomacy bonus high enough that you can ignore the Neutral and Friendly stages largely makes long-term coercion pointless.

This really only LEAVES the demoralizing effects as what he's missing. :P


You didn't counter any of my points, which is that he doesn't get the benefits of intimidate unlock at all. What you did point out however, is that he didn't really need them because diplomacy is generally better to do.


Thanks to everyone for your help and sorry for the delay, I was out the entire day.
@skulky I was going to Phantom Thief to get the unlock in a few skills, like intimidate, heal, perception and stealth.

Imagine a non combatant showing his dagger with Dazzling display and get them panicked before even starting the encounter...

And then shift toward Negotiator Bard for the others bonuses.

I was using Phantom Thief to get both Mocking Bird and Ancestral Enlightenment Vigilante's Social Talent and Trapspotter Rogue Talent, mixing up with Dilettante and Breadth of Experience, 5 ranks and 14 Int, I will have 4+2+2+5+2+3=+18 in every Knowledge check that is almost useful to know up to CR 9 Monsters.
Then Skip to Bard or anything else that could help me keeping in touch against hidden enemies and others social threats.

Thanks to @Claxon and to @Zarius for your tip too.


You'd need the skill unlock in intimidate and then ranks in intimidate to further unlock the skill.

Bluff can be used to intimidate but the skill itself states it only gets better with more ranks in it.


Cavall wrote:

You'd need the skill unlock in intimidate and then ranks in intimidate to further unlock the skill.

Bluff can be used to intimidate but the skill itself states it only gets better with more ranks in it.

Yes I know that, I'm thinking on forget about Taunt and keep it raising as individual skill and pick Archaeologist as Bard Archetype.


You could do worse than that. A pretty solid archetype. Plus traps come back to you

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