Dragon Disciple Wings and Flying in Armor

[Talassaene]

Hi folks

We are playing pathfinder in a d&d forgotten realms campaign. One of the players plays a dragon disciple, in a way that made the presige class totally imbalanced compared to others:
He took 4 levels of fighter and 1 level of sorcerer - thereby meeting all the prerequisites for the presige class. Now, he is playing his character not as a caster but as a melee fighter. Natural armor and the ability to cast e.g. shield upon himself in addition to wearing heavy armor make him nearly unbeatable by melee-based monsters of his level. Strength score increase increased also his damage output to a degree that the lost attack bonus is negligible compared to a fighter of the same level. Konsti score increase and improved hit dice... - you know what I mean, and maybe this was discussed before.

My question now is regarding to his wings. Nothing is stated to the dragon disciples ability to fly in armor. According to my research there are different possibilities to deal with this question:

A) Refering to the rule that winged mounts cannot fly in medium and heavy barding the DD should also not be able to do it. Nothing can bypass this restriction.

B) You could compare the wings of the DD with the outsider wings available by talent for aasimars. They get a fly speed of 30 ft. (average) in no or light armor and 20 ft. (poor) in medium and heavy armor. That should be the closest morphologic relationship of wings in the game.

C) you could some not so well known D&D 3.5 rules from the "raves of the dragon" accessory. There, for all dragon-based characters with wings it is possible to fly only in no or light armor. For using medium armor you need the feat "reinforced wings" (prerequisite: Str 13), for heavy armor the feat "heavyweight wings" (prerequisites: Str 15, reinforced wings).

What would you recommend?
I would be happy for any discussion.

[Jeraa]

The rules changed between 3.5 D&D and Pathfinder. In Pathfinder, you can flying any sort of armor. Armor reduces your speed while flying in the same way it does while walking.

So I guess that would be answer B.

There are example of flying creatures with heavy armor in the Bestiaries. The solar angel is the one I usually go to as an example. In Pathfinder, A is not correct for anything except mounts with barding. (And likely that is just a holdover from 3.5 D&D - the rest of the flight rules changed, but someone may have forgot to change that section as well.)

[David knott 242]

What kind of armor is he wearing? Note that this class combination gets nothing to prevent arcane spell failure for armor worn.

Also note that the Dragon Disciple is at his peak after taking 4 levels of that prestige class -- at that point he has boosted his strength by 4 points and lost only 1 point of BAB compared to a Fighter. Further levels of Dragon Disciple won't work out so well for him.

[WatersLethe]

So, the dragon disciple wings are described like so:

"...leathery dragon wings grow from your back as a standard action, giving you a fly speed of 60 feet with average maneuverability. You can dismiss the wings as a free action."

Since the character is not a mount, the only thing I can see that inhibits his flight capability is his armor check penalty to fly checks.

There is a table that shows the speed adjustment due to armor for speeds other than the normal 30 and 20 feet.

Also, prepare for some feedback about your over-reaction to the fighter's build choice and relative strength.

[Haywire build generator]

You think fighter 4 sorc 1 is bad, what about bloodrager 5?

[Chess Pwn]

@Jeraa
Where's the rule that normal flight is reduced by armor? I believe it to be true, but I have a player that says that rule is only for the fly spell and not generic for flight.

@OP
d10 HD with FCB hp = d12 HD with no FCB means equal HP.
Fighter is missing out Weapon Training which gives more accuracy and damage than the str is giving them.

Like it's not a bad deal, but in no way is it a good deal. It's at best a side-grade trade.

[David knott 242]

Also, in order to fly, a Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple X would need either 7 levels as a Dragon Disciple to learn the Fly spell or 9 levels to have permanent wings. It is not really that amazing for a 12th-14th level character to be able to fly, given all of the other things that a pure spellcaster of that level would be able to do.

He could manage to learn Fly with as few as 5 levels of Dragon Disciple with the right feats, but even that does not seem overpowered. The feat investments to regain missing spellcasting levels and overcome arcane spell failure don't leave room for much else.

[Jeraa]

Chess Pwn wrote:

@Jeraa

Where's the rule that normal flight is reduced by armor? I believe it to be true, but I have a player that says that rule is only for the fly spell and not generic for flight.

The armor table and rules make no mention of the reduction being limited to land speed, so it applies to all speed. The same with the encumbrance rules. And if you check any of the Bestiary flying monsters in armor, you will see it applies. The solar angel:

Quote:

Speed 50 ft., fly 150 ft. (good); 35 ft., fly 100 ft. (good) in armor

Medium and heavy armor reduces speed to 2/3rds normal, and you can see the same is applied to the flight speed above.

[WatersLethe]

Chess Pwn wrote:

@Jeraa

Where's the rule that normal flight is reduced by armor? I believe it to be true, but I have a player that says that rule is only for the fly spell and not generic for flight.

I'm not Jeraa, but I base this off of the rule that says armor reduces your speed, not specifically land speed. The supporting info is that there is a table that shows how armor affects speeds, but it doesn't specify land, flight or otherwise.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/exploration-movement#TOC-Table:-Armor -and-Encumbrance-for-Other-Base-Speeds