Shifter Rageshaper Archetype


Advice


Hello everyone, this is my first ever post on the Paizo website so I apologize if this is in the wrong forum. I have just recently got my ultimate Wilderness book in the mail and have been browsing though it the past couple of days. I have came across the Rageshaper Shifter archetype and found the flavor very interesting. I started to Imagine how awesome it is that I can very briefly enlarge myself and gain a ton of strength to beat my foes over the head with, but then as I took a closely look some of the the wording and abilities confused me.

1. Devastating Form allows you to increase your size by 3 categories by level 20 but doesn't list if you get any stat bonus like most size increasing abilities/feats/spell, to me this sounds weird since I can be like 42 feet tall but only have the strength score an medium size PC. I know you get reach and a increase to damage but you also take size penalties to AC/ATK/Dex. Does this ability increase your STR/CON for being that size?

2. Is Invulnerable Defense suppose to scale with level? as written you give up Defensive Instinct/Chimeric Form/Greater Chimeric Form for (+2AC/DR-)? giving up three powerful abilities for a small AC/DR bonus seems weird.

I really like the Flavor of the Rageshaper,but as written giving up all abilities tied to shifter aspects/Defensive Instinct for a rage like ability without other rage base abilities (like Rage Powers)/ an ability to "APPEAR" Bigger/ and a weaker AC bonus doesn't sound like a far trade.


Welcome to the madhouse. Hope you enjoy your stay. Some good news to start with, you're in the right subforum, so no worries there.

1. Does the ability say it functions as a certain spell, like Beast Shape, Monstrous Physique, or other similar Transmutation effects? If so, you'd use those rules to determine your size benefits. I believe there may also be generic size rules as well, but I forget where they're located. If you can find them, you'd probably default to those if there's no overriding text based on the effect you're emulating (if any).

2. I'd ask for the full text on this one, but I believe there is a rule that says we can't post Paizo content that's recently released until a certain amount of time passes. I think it's 1-2 months (which is usually the time it takes before I actually start seeing rules texts from newly published material), so on this front I can't properly help you. All I can say is that I would prepare for the worst, and say that they don't scale if there is no text suggesting that it does. (After all, most effects that scale usually have text stating how it scales, if there is a limit, and so on.)

Another important thing to consider is that not all archetypes are created equal, or to have equal trades. Some archetypes are going to be better than the base class for what you're looking for in a character, some are going to be worse. Some might even be outright horrible, but the fact of the matter is that it should be rare for an archetype to be better than the base class; most commonly, they should be sidegrades, and sometimes they'll be worse to compensate for not sticking to the old school choice like everybody else normally does.


The size increase don't come with any bonuses besides the ones that size naturally has.
Bonus to CMB and CMD, penalty to AC and attack rolls and the penalty to stealth.

No it doesn't scale. the things they say they trade for aren't always what it's traded for. Like one archetypes says "you lose this power, this replaces this power" it's because it's removal is part of the balance of the rest of the abilities.

This archetype is quite bad as a player archetype, but it could make for a good boss fight archetype.


It should also increase the size of your damage dice, unless something states otherwise.


It's shame. This archetype was a cool concept (the Hulk) with a really inadequate execution. What is a rageshaper supposed to add to the party when s/he is done with their incredibly short devastating form duration (besides being fatigued)? Does the rageshifter get the boost in strength, constitution, and natural armor and the reduction in dexterity that a creature normally gets when it increases a size step? Does the boost in strength from rage stack with the increase in strength from moving up a step in size?


Player Killer wrote:
It's shame. This archetype was a cool concept (the Hulk) with a really inadequate execution. What is a rageshaper supposed to add to the party when s/he is done with their incredibly short devastating form duration (besides being fatigued)? Does the rageshifter get the boost in strength, constitution, and natural armor and the reduction in dexterity that a creature normally gets when it increases a size step? Does the boost in strength from rage stack with the increase in strength from moving up a step in size?

Chess Pwn is right. I built a 10th level rageshaper in Hero lab to see how he'd compare to other characters and he doesn't come close to being viable. The only strength and constitution bonuses come from Rage or Greater Rage, nothing from actually growing in size. I don't understand why they didn't make Invulnerable defense scale. You can't use most armor because it doesn't change size when you shift and you give up so much for that little boost. Making Invulnerable Defense scale and giving the archetype access to a small number of rage powers would have gone a long way to making this archetype fun without making it unbalanced.


While it is a cool concept, the Rageshifter is a poorly designed archetype that is nearly unplayable.

1) They gain the bonuses of a barbarian’s rage and increased sized damage dice but no size based bonus to STR or Con. Unlike enlarge person, it does not grant a bonus to strength but still inflicts the penalties to attacks and AC. The only benefit to as written is that they don’t gain the typical Dex penalty.

2) As written there is no scaling. If it was meant to scale the writers, editors, and FAQ people afterwards have all overlooked it. Losing defensive instinct alone made this a serious loss.

I agree that this archetype gets in exchange for what it gives up is far from fair. Also note that the enlargement prevents you from wearing normal armor and takes a full round while provoking to activate but only last for rounds per level. This means that it’s too short to use it before a fight starts thus you waste your first round to enlarge. And once you do finally gain enough rounds of frenzy to last longer than a fight he has to make a will save or possibly attack allies while wasting precious rounds of frenzy.

And don’t forget, the slams bypass the far less common problem of hardness of objects and never count as even magic without an Amulet of Mighty Fist.

Like the Brute before it, this pseudo-Hulk is worthless.


Latrans wrote:

While it is a cool concept, the Rageshifter is a poorly designed archetype that is nearly unplayable.

1) They gain the bonuses of a barbarian’s rage and increased sized damage dice but no size based bonus to STR or Con. Unlike enlarge person, it does not grant a bonus to strength but still inflicts the penalties to attacks and AC. The only benefit to as written is that they don’t gain the typical Dex penalty.

2) As written there is no scaling. If it was meant to scale the writers, editors, and FAQ people afterwards have all overlooked it. Losing defensive instinct alone made this a serious loss.

I agree that this archetype gets in exchange for what it gives up is far from fair. Also note that the enlargement prevents you from wearing normal armor and takes a full round while provoking to activate but only last for rounds per level. This means that it’s too short to use it before a fight starts thus you waste your first round to enlarge. And once you do finally gain enough rounds of frenzy to last longer than a fight he has to make a will save or possibly attack allies while wasting precious rounds of frenzy.

And don’t forget, the slams bypass the far less common problem of hardness of objects and never count as even magic without an Amulet of Mighty Fist.

Like the Brute before it, this pseudo-Hulk is worthless.

Good point about the slam replacing claws and trading hardness for bypassing DR. That's another big loss. What is frustrating to me is that the developers haven't gone back and fixed these archetypes even though people on the boards have put forth a plethora of fixes that could make this archetype and the oozemorph not only viable but fun to play.


Player Killer wrote:
Latrans wrote:

While it is a cool concept, the Rageshifter is a poorly designed archetype that is nearly unplayable.

1) They gain the bonuses of a barbarian’s rage and increased sized damage dice but no size based bonus to STR or Con. Unlike enlarge person, it does not grant a bonus to strength but still inflicts the penalties to attacks and AC. The only benefit to as written is that they don’t gain the typical Dex penalty.

2) As written there is no scaling. If it was meant to scale the writers, editors, and FAQ people afterwards have all overlooked it. Losing defensive instinct alone made this a serious loss.

I agree that this archetype gets in exchange for what it gives up is far from fair. Also note that the enlargement prevents you from wearing normal armor and takes a full round while provoking to activate but only last for rounds per level. This means that it’s too short to use it before a fight starts thus you waste your first round to enlarge. And once you do finally gain enough rounds of frenzy to last longer than a fight he has to make a will save or possibly attack allies while wasting precious rounds of frenzy.

And don’t forget, the slams bypass the far less common problem of hardness of objects and never count as even magic without an Amulet of Mighty Fist.

Like the Brute before it, this pseudo-Hulk is worthless.

Good point about the slam replacing claws and trading hardness for bypassing DR. That's another big loss. What is frustrating to me is that the developers haven't gone back and fixed these archetypes even though people on the boards have put forth a plethora of fixes that could make this archetype and the oozemorph not only viable but fun to play.

Frankly Paizo rushed of the Shifter class. The entire thing needs to go back and be redesigned.


Player Killer wrote:


Good point about the slam replacing claws and trading hardness for bypassing DR. That's another big loss. What is frustrating to me is that the developers haven't gone back and fixed these archetypes even though people on the boards have put forth a plethora of fixes that could make this archetype and the oozemorph not only viable but fun to play.

I need to find the quote, but the person behind the oozemorph came out and said the archetype was suppose to be a downgrade.

Some archetypes are basically "NPC" archetypes, but it is sad to see so many of them in one of their last PF1 books. I understand why to an extent, but it still sucks that they said "HEY GUYS! You can finally play as an Ooze! Look its cool and shiny!" then pull the rug out. If they creator said it was a bad/NPC archetype, Paizo shouldn't have mentioned it at all until the book came out.

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