putting all your money into wands is still not infinite healing.Where is this infinite healing? I haven't found that method yet.
Who said anything about interrupting the monsters every time they try t heal whit a wand where did that come from?"full rest up after every single encounter." I was taking it to be in reference to healing as that is the topic at hand. If you were referencing something else, I was justifiably confused as you switched topics. 8 hours rest has no baring on what we're talking about so... I don't know what's it's here for.
Yes their is other resources you have to manage like spells, wands and potionsAnd the fast healing object fits right in there too because it uses one of the MOST VALUABLE in the game: Time. Each hp is 1 round of buffs ticking away, and as you said, 'spells, wands and potions' are resources so having to reapply them because you took out an hour to heal sounds like it's not removing resource use at all.
Your game do what you want but don't try and pass some lie off that PF/D&D isn't a resource management game.AH... That's what I want to say to you... Please don't try to ignore the fact that cheap/easy healing exists or say that fast healing would somehow cause the sky to fall. You're just ignoring that time is a resource to track.
Hey your the one talking about someone attacking every time they break out a wand. Still doesn't make sense. I was just saying its not typical for a group to be able to restore all their resources after every encounter.
Hey your the one talking about someone attacking every time they break out a wand. Still doesn't make sense. I was just saying its not typical for a group to be able to restore all their resources after every encounter.
You were talking about not being able to rest up [which i took to mean heal] after a fight. To me, that means something has to interfere with healing for that to happen, like random monster attack. That was ALL in response to your saying no rest after an encounter.
I didn't take it as "able to restore all their resources after every encounter" as we weren't TALKING about all resources but just healing. DM's allow healing up after a fight and usually, that means canned spells. So I was assuming you were staying on topic and got confused when you made a sharp right turn off into a field somewhere...
A ring of regeneration is infinite healing, it will heal all that you have suffered while wearing it, just not instantly, but MUCH faster than by rest/extended rest.
But that's not infinite, but the definition of finite. There is a clear identifiable number it can heal: damage taken. It also isn't on demand but is doled out over time: much faster than natural healing isn't very exciting when it can be tens to hundreds of times slower than magic healing. If you want to say inexhaustible slow healing, that's closer to correct.
by your definition, infinite healing cannot exist since that would imply an actually infinite number of hit points to be healed, which is an impossibility as any non divine being has a finite number of hit points.
Except I was talking about resource management. Hp is a resource. some classes their only resource is HP. Hence the mention of the fighter. (provided you don't take the stamina stuff.) Also initially I did say unlimited healing and both a ring of regen and a ring of fast healing is unlimited. The fast healing ring you could let pass between an entire kingdom and it will eventually heal em all while a wand would run out of charges. Now mind you at the appropriate level I don't see a problem with the ring of fast healing but if you give it out to soon (I.E make its cost to low) It could cause problems for a game primarily at low levels. granted once you have hundreds of hp its not gonna be a huge deal.
by your definition, infinite healing cannot exist since that would imply an actually infinite number of hit points to be healed, which is an impossibility as any non divine being has a finite number of hit points.
Correct. Infinite is an incorrect term for this. For infinite healing, you'd first need something with infinite HP to heal, then be able full heal it. This is a bit of a paradox though, as any damage less than infinite is not noticeable. So you'd need someone to deal infinite damage to an infinite hp creature before infinite healing comes into play. And it's not MY definition of infinity, it's the ACTUAL definition of infinity.
And for the average game, healing is effectively inexhaustible. A few cure wands and you're fine. Go through one and you have a few to go through, leaving plenty of time to get new ones. A DM have to set up a very specific schtick game to make healing an actual resource past the first few levels. It's just too easy/cheap NOT to have the healing available on demand.
Vidmaster7: "resource management" , you where talking about HP and how fighter would be resourceless. At NO TIME was there mention of 8 hr sleep or regaining any other resources, at least in THAT post. You only brought up other resources later.
You seem to be putting fast healing as inherently better than wands and that really isn't the case. Wands are cheap enough that running out isn't really a factor unless the DM is playing a fast one on the players. So the 'pass between an entire kingdom and it will eventually heal em all while a wand would run out of charge' thing isn't really a factor. The time lag is a MAJOR factor you are still overlooking. 1/rd fills you up for the next day really well but it's the worst for healing you for the next combat before buff go away. It's a 'resource management' between getting hp slowly or trying to move on for buffs. This is where the 'unlimited healing' is shown to be false. If the only healing were fast heal, I bet a LOT of fights would start with wounded players and active buffs as opposed to letting buffs go and sitting around for minutes/hours healing after every combat.
if you have fast healing 1 in one hour you will heal 600 hp.... what level are we talking about where you need hours to heal?
like a cleric's allowance of spells and the need to rest to replenish them is my guess.
barely 24 hours to heal your level.
See the problem you guys are having is the scale. If you have 20 hp the ring should be fine for most of your healing needs. if you are a class that doesn't rely on prepared spells you don't need a break longer then 2 minutes for every fight of the day. you could fight 100 encounters with no need to stop. the wizard at this point has been almost useless since encounter number 3-4
However if you are higher level then then you might be better off with the wands.
You have no scale to your argument at what point would you say this item is to good for a certain level? Can I give it to 1st level character? I agreed at a certain point the wand is better but you guys act like the ring is useless.
Heck why not just a wand of endless cure light wounds or a self-refilling potion of healing? you got a problem with those?
if you have fast healing 1 in one hour you will heal 600 hp.... what level are we talking about where you need hours to heal?
You have a group with several pets/familiars/ect it's not hard to get that much even at lower levels. You have 5 players, each with a pet, that's 60 hp each. If we're talking about getting rid of wands, I was figuring a single item swapped around. Everyone having their own is too pricey.
Can I give it to 1st level character?
Can a 1st level character afford 5000gp worth of magic item. If yes, then sure. The 'scale' is built into the price.
if you have fast healing 1 in one hour you will heal 600 hp.... what level are we talking about where you need hours to heal?You have a group with several pets/familiars/ect it's not hard to get that much even at lower levels. You have 5 players, each with a pet, that's 60 hp each. If we're talking about getting rid of wands, I was figuring a single item swapped around. Everyone having their own is too pricey.
I'm not the one saying the item should be cheap. I think it should cost more then what some people were saying, and who said anything about replacing wands?
My sole argument is the item shouldn't be too cheap because at lower levels it will make other forms of healing a waste of a spell slot or money on a wand and it will knock out a portion of resource management. The cleric can at least use all his spells for offense so that is not bad.If the item costs is going to be cheap just get one for everyone....
My sole argument is the item shouldn't be too cheap because at lower levels it will make other forms of healing a waste of a spell slot or money on a wand and it will knock out a portion of resource management.
The price on 2 fast healing items now is 5000gp. They have restrictions on their use so something like 10000gp seems reasonable. Enough where everyone isn't buying them. If you make it higher, by the time you can afford it, it's too slow to matter much.
A don't see ANY level were fast heal removes the need for healing magic of healing resource management. Even of it's only in combat, it's still management.
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This item is so easy to design that I don't understand why people are arguing some of the most semantic stuff there is; maybe because they want to?
It's quite clear that the OP really only wants the hit points per round, because he wouldn't have posed this question if he knew the other ramifications of what the ability he wanted can theoretically do. So, let's get him what he wants: An item that gives hit points per round with none of the "OP badwrongfun" baggage.
Aura Moderate Conjuration; CL 12th
Slot Ring; Price I (5,000), II (10,000), III (15,000), IV (20,000), V (25,000)
DESCRIPTION
This enigmatic ring is fashioned with a symbol of infinity on its surface, constantly shifting and distorting in shape based on the wearer's condition. A wounded wearer will have its symbol appear jarred and crudely fashioned; a dead wearer will have its symbol of infinity appear incorrect and broken compared to an otherwise living wearer.When worn for 24 hours, the symbol on the ring of a living wearer fixes itself to an appropriate shape and grants the wearer a sense of endlessness, aiding his ability to maintain his well-being. The ring restores one hit point every 6 seconds based on the quality of the ring (I restores 1 hit point, II restores 2 hit points, and so on). The hit points regained from this item do not stack with other effects that regain hit points every round (such as Fast Healing or Regeneration); only the higher of the two effects apply.
This ring does not restore hit points lost from Constitution drain or damage, nor does it repair ability damage, ability drain, or ability penalties of any kind. It similarly does not repair physical injuries such as severed or broken limbs, as the symbol cannot differentiate between the different form of its wearer. The ring may serve to counteract any constant damage suffered (such as from a bleed effect or an Acid Arrow spell), but does not stop such effects from taking their course normally, and any persisting effects must be fixed through other means.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Forge Ring, Regenerate, Haste; Cost 2,500 (I), 5,000 (II), 7,500 (III), 10,000 (IV), 12,500 (V)
I have to say, I've agreed with absolutely nothing you posted.
If you prefer a game where players heal for free after every fight, that's totally fine. But to say it has little to no adverse impact on the game is nothing short of a fallacy.
And those other resources will drain significantly less if damage has no consequence unless it kills you before the end of the battle.They drain at the same rate. The only difference is that the party that has healing withheld stops before it has actually USED it's other resources because hp have run out. Not fun in my book, unless sleeping with 1/2 your spells left if fun.
That conclusion makes no sense considering that much of the tactical decision-making during combat involves deciding whether to risk getting harmed in battle or use a limited-use ability to ensure the battle goes smoothly. This is a basic game design concept. The point of finite healing isn't to screw over the party. It's designed to add gameplay through variable levels of consequence of action. Infinite healing creates binary consequence, which makes the game more dull.
As long as healing has a gold and preparation cost, consumables will never have the same effect as an at-will healing option. Even a glance at the economics can easily prove this.I glanced at it, and I see something VERY different than you. The ONLY, and I do mean ONLY difference is out of combat action economy and 99.9% of the time, that's meaningless.
This is like saying research into free infinite energy is meaningless because fuel only costs ~2-3 bucks a gallon and you only need to fuel your car once a week. With cure light wounds wands, damage has a cost of 30/11 (~2.72 gp) per hit point of damage. As long as this cost exists, a CLW wand is not the same as infinite healing because damage, in itself, has a tangible consequence on the party's longterm and short term resources. And this says nothing about the cost of preparation, which is a cornerstone of an adventure game where threats can be unassailable if you're not properly prepared.
All of this is meant to create gameplay by influencing decision-making.
The major issue with wands is that they make healing feel trivial because you can easily stockpile them and only one player is responsible for managing them. This is why my group removed wands from the game and replaced them with potions that cost the same as wand charges.So what you're saying is that things feel different if you houserule it to make it MUCH harder on the players. I agree, but that has little to do with a standard game that actually follows the rules. ANd you actually disagree with yourself on economy as you're fine with the cost, you just make each 'charge' cost weight.
The argument here doesn't follow. Potions/wands still have a cost.
This house rule has been running for two separate groups of players for several years. Both of the groups like it better than wands and think it makes more sense that potions are the staple healing item. And both groups would rather have this system than one where you heal for free after every battle.
Jeraa is totally correct why an at-will healing option will dramatically impact a campaign.She might be correct for HER game, but not for any I've ever been in.
She's correct because that's how the game is designed. The fact that the game designers go out of their way ensure any at-will healing option doesn't exist should communicate the impact it would have on the game. The game assumes healing is not infinite and costless because it would impact how it's played. Going contrary to this assumption will change the game. If you like the way it changes the game, that's totally okay. But to argue there's little impact is untrue.
It simplifies the game's economics at the cost of removing a significant amount of depth.It's a 'depth' that I seen dozens of DM in the past not care about. In fact, I haven't played with one that did.
Not all GMs are good game designers. Which is fine because you shouldn't need to be a good game designer in order to run a game (though it helps). However, it does mean that a GM can change the game in a way that has unwanted consequences because they failed to fully comprehend the effect their rules changes have on the game.
The entire combat system (as well as some non-combat systems) revolves around playing smart to avoid taking damage.It DOES? I missed that in the combat section? Where is that printed?
Printed rules seldom directly communicate the interworkings of a game's design. Because you shouldn't need to have game design skill to run or play a game. Just as you shouldn't need an engineering degree to operate your car or change a spark plug.
Combat loses depth if damage has no consequence unless it kills you before the end of the fight.The only valid tactic in combat is YOURS?
Non-sequitur argument?
It makes combat more binary.So everything about combat is solely based on avoiding damage and if I don't I'm playing wrong?
You're either constructing a strawman of my argument or I didn't explain it well enough. A foundation of combat is that you're incentivized to play smart in order to mitigate the cost of battle. Without this dynamic, combat feels pointless and loses tension. It's more challenging for a GM to facilitate this dynamic if damage completely heals after each battle at absolutely no cost to the party. Combat isn't as tense if only cost of battle is death and longterm status conditions.
It doesn't matter if your big dumb fighters collectively took 275 damage by playing like idiots if it costs the party absolutely nothing to bring them back to full health.If that what the player enjoys, what's wrong with it?
It will eventually get dull as the player gradually realizes (perhaps on a subconscious level) that his reckless playstyle has no consequence as long as he doesn't die or suffer a lasting condition. For a year-and-a-half, I played a character not unlike Reinhart from Overwatch that threw himself into battle while soaking up tons of damage. It would have gotten boring fast if he just completely healed at no cost after every battle. Things got tense after surviving a battle and having to use a lot of potions to bring me back to full. Playing risky isn't fun if you lessen the consequences and make them binary.
Combat will get samey and dull and force the GM to resort to making every encounter lethal or use annoying mechanics like negative levels and ability drain more often.You touch on a single aspect of combat, damage, and base they entirety of how the combat feels on that? Tactical positions, teamwork, flanking, buffing, aid others, ect. All that is meaningless and add NOTHING to the combat as it's all about if you heal to full afterwards?
The entire point of those tactics is to end a fight quickly and efficiently in a way that mitigates the cost of battle. Those tactics are less meaningful if you heal for free at the end of every battle because the consequence of not using those resources is significantly lessened.
I have to say, I've agreed with absolutely nothing you posted.If you prefer a game where players heal for free after every fight, that's totally fine. But to say it has little to no adverse impact on the game is nothing short of a fallacy.
** spoiler omitted **...
I have to say, I've agreed with absolutely nothing you posted.
To say it has any great impact on the game is nothing short of a fallacy.
You are pretending that this kind of item results in full healing instantly after every fight without taking the consequences of speed vs conventional methods or comparing the costs of wands vs fast healing as compared to total wealth. It's far from "binary" unless you just look at if from "OP badwrongfun" POV and ignore the downside of waiting a round for every hp healed or the number of healing wand you could buy for the cost of that fast heal item. In effect, to you it's binary because you want it to be. To me, there is a real decision to be made between healing and letting buff durations tick down or saving buffs and moving on: it doesn't seem "binary" to me.
To say it has any great impact on the game is nothing short of a fallacy.BS. You're going from an ongoing expense to a one-time expense. That is a paradigm shift. Otherwise they wouldn't have changed Cure Minor Wounds into Stabilize.
Healing 1 hp/round DOESN'T mean you instantly heal after combat so this "paradigm shift" is false and disingenuous. A fast healing items doesn't impact in combat healing in any meaningful way. It only impacts out of combat healing if you're willing to let large chunks of buffs vanish as an ever increasingly large amount of time passes for hps to heal.
The ONLY, and I truly mean ONLY, thing that impacts it healing during your 8hrs rest to regain class features. So it saves on end of day healing. Big woop... I don't see this as a "great impact" and cries to make it so to be 'making mountains over molehills'. The 'impact' is saving yourself tracking healing charges for rest healing... Super 'game changing' right?
You go through less than 14 wands of CLW in a party?
(edited for better comparison)
Before anyone brings up Lady-J's way of playing the game, yes my parties [multiple/different] bought less than than. Much less in fact. Are you going through a wand a level? That's a game style FAR from one I'm used to.
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Going to agree with TOZ on this, even with the best of tactics I don't see how you can do this.
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Lady-J's high power game style is something of public knowledge at this point. It is possible her games aren't comparable because of it. What may be true, if irregular, for her might not carry through to some tables.
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Going to agree with TOZ on this, even with the best of tactics I don't see how you can do this.
Yeah, we require out of combat healing but not at the rate we'd need a wand/level. NO need for a wand/post combat heals is atypical.
PS: Druid Herbalism has been a GREAT boon in reducing the need for buying healing. Wisdom modifier FREE potions/day quickly add up.
Oof, that feels weird. :)
I know, right? XD
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Going to agree with TOZ on this, even with the best of tactics I don't see how you can do this.protect the squishies so they don't get hurt, have the front line have high enough ac that they cant be hit use battle field control to make sure enemies can only do things on your terms, these things reduce the damage the party takes over all drastically
Which brings us back to the fact that your games have far higher numbers than expected :)
they are also well over level 9 and could have high 50's low 60s in ac with magic items
Level 20 PCs will rarely have 50-60 AC, and even that is disputed through effect stacking, and usually at the cost of reduced offensive effectiveness (which means you're going to be the last person focused when facing smart enemies, which are 90% of encounters by that level).
You're also not discounting Natural 20s being a common occurrence.
I think we're getting off into the weeds here. You don't have to get to the extremes for affordable expendables to cover out of combat healing. 5+ free Cure Serious Wounds potions/day put a dent in out of combat healing before wands need to be pulled out.
its not hard to get a high ac just a +2 fullplate and a +2 shield will net you a whole butt load of ac even at mid level with a 12 dex if you go for more ac with feats or other class features you can get it higher and thats not even having a ring of protection or ammy of natural armor you can quite easily have a 32 ac or higher at or below lvl 9Which brings us back to the fact that your games have far higher numbers than expected :)Going to agree with TOZ on this, even with the best of tactics I don't see how you can do this.protect the squishies so they don't get hurt, have the front line have high enough ac that they cant be hit use battle field control to make sure enemies can only do things on your terms, these things reduce the damage the party takes over all drastically
That's fairly exaggerated, even at 9th level.
Let's take a Demonspawn Tiefling Paladin as an example, a race/class combination that's very self-reliant in a combat situation. He's taken an Oath of Vengeance against his own demonic kind for added offensive power. He's also not the brightest Paladin (5 Intelligence), but none can argue his powerful battle contributions.
This character can be expected to have 10 Base + 11 Full Plate + 3 Shield + 1 Shield Focus + 2 Armor of the Pit + 1 Deflection + 1 AoNA = 29 AC, which is on the high end since he has a feat that gives him +2 AC that's race-specific, and he's getting away with two-handing a weapon while using that shield via Shield Brace and Nodachi combo. He could fight defensively for 31 AC (which puts him at a -4 to-hit), or he can total defense for 33 AC (which outright negates him as a threat), but both actions aren't desirable contributions to combat. Against Smited foes, he gets an extra 5 AC, which can put him at the listed threshold, but monsters usually have pretty high to-hit across the board with their natural weapons and augmented physical stats; not to mention that it's fairly circumstantial, so it's not particularly reliable.
He can heal himself for 5D6+15 each turn (which is an average of 32.5 hit points, or a minimum of 20 and a maximum of 45) up to 10 times each day (which is an average of 325 effective hit points), and full attack at 9 Base + 5 Strength + 3 Weapon + 2 Divine Favor + 2 Divine Bond + 2 Wrath - 3 Power Attack = +20/15 and deal 1D10+25 damage per hit (average of 30). Against evil opponents, he can Smite to add an extra +6 to his attack roll (making it +26/21), and dealing an extra +9 damage (or 18 against Undead, Outsiders, and Dragons for the first hit).
Compared to an enemy that has 32 AC (which is the average AC of a CR 17 foe), that Paladin won't hit them half of the time with a mere +20 to hit. If the enemy is evil, his hit chances improve significantly, needing only a 6+ to hit on his first attack, and an 11+ on his iterative.
His saves are solid as well (15 for his Fortitude and Will, 9 for his Reflex, but he has all kinds of powerful healing so he can tank those blast spells). His skillset is lacking (only 1 rank per level), but Paladins in general lack skill points, so it's to be expected.
However, this assumes ample buffing time and the ability to engage an enemy quickly. Taking away his Divine Favor spell, Divine Bond ability, and Wrath spell, his to-hit chances dwindle away to extremely unfavorable odds (only +14/9) for significantly less damage (only 1D10+19).
So, I wouldn't say that 32 AC is easy to permanently reach, especially without sacrificing offensive power to do so, and having level 9 PCs face enemies whose projected AC is double the expected CRs they will be facing isn't exactly a walk in the park either.
**EDIT** Math is hard. Good thing we get multiple tries on it.
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I think we're getting off into the weeds here. You don't have to get to the extremes for affordable expendables to cover out of combat healing. 5+ free Cure Serious Wounds potions/day put a dent in out of combat healing before wands need to be pulled out.
Herbalist Druids want to go off into the weeds. How else you think they get their concoction ingredients?
"Ooh, Dandelions! Great for healing our stupid fighters!"
I think we're getting off into the weeds here. You don't have to get to the extremes for affordable expendables to cover out of combat healing. 5+ free Cure Serious Wounds potions/day put a dent in out of combat healing before wands need to be pulled out.Herbalist Druids want to go off into the weeds. How else you think they get their concoction ingredients?
"Ooh, Dandelions! Great for healing our stupid fighters!"
Not my potions! Mine are made from fresh squeezed critters: "other natural ingredients" ;)