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Feinting is a standard action. To feint, make a Bluff skill check. The DC of this check is equal to 10 + your opponent’s base attack bonus + your opponent’s Wisdom modifier. If your opponent is trained in Sense Motive, the DC is instead equal to 10 + your opponent’s Sense Motive bonus, if higher. If successful, the next melee attack you make against the target does not allow him to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
The VCs were wrong. The rule is pretty damn clear about how it works.
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Sure, and as you said, I made the argument that it's pretty clear it says ON my next turn or BEFORE it (Thus allowing for attacks of opportunity, etc.), they said I was wrong and that it meant the opposite, that it meant I had to use is on my turn or before my next (Which is exactly backwards).
So, the Venture Captain called the other Venture Captain over and they ruled that they were correct. They also said a lot of the combat rules were that way (Where they were useless without feats), I asked for another exampled, and they didn't have one, they just ruled that I was wrong on the matter.
You're welcome to elevate the issue to the person above them if you'd like.
Here is a link to the list of PFS coordinators. If they were Venture-Lieutenants or Agents then you'd want to contact the actual Venture-Captain for your area. If they were full on Venture-Captains (a bit unlikely to have 2 in one place outside a con) then you can contact the Regional Venture Captain.
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Interesting. I wonder if THIS poster also plays in your region.Yes, actually, I think they were the Cleric in the group. All the players were kind of flummoxed as to the unilateral nature of the decision, they were very uncompromising. I had the core book there on the table and asked both the VL running us and the other guy he called over to read it and explain to me how "ON or before" doesn't mean ON or before.
The Starfinder explanation is clearer, but I expect neither of them will reconsider when I take the book there tomorrow, which is why I was hoping for, say, some absolute officialdom answer.
I would highly recommend against trying to use Starfinder to support your argument. They're completely seperate systems and using it as a reference would only hurt you.
As I said earlier, your best bet is to raise the issue up the chain. But if you play there again in the meantime make sure they know that the burden of proof is on them to prove that you are wrong. The rules say you are right.
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The burden of proof is not on the GM. If they honestly feel something works a certain way, you gotta just suck it up.
That being said, why write a whole section in the book about how feinting works if you need a feat to use it. Just write a longer feat and save space in the maneuver section.
I agree that feint works without a feat.
Wow somehow you spelled feint different every time.
Wow somehow you spelled feint different every time.Sometimes I hate my phone.
I understand. your phone wanted to say something completely different.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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Well, they were wrong, but there's a difference between being right, and "getting right".
During a game session there is only so much time to argue rules with the GM. If you can't convince the GM in a minute with the book in hand, and it's not a life and death thing, then you should postpone the argument.
However, sometimes people get used to being right (yes, even us, particularly us venture critters) and it can be easy to dismiss some new guy making a rules claim that you're sure you know how it works. Except anyone can be wrong sometimes. So we don't always listen well enough to someone with the book in hand contesting our rulings. Which is bad, but we're only human, and it happens.
What I would recommend at first, is writing those venture people a polite email. Explain that you're bothered by what happened at the table, that you backed down at that point because the game had to go on, but that you want to continue the conversation. Write down your rule research so that they can re-read the whole thing in a non-rushed environment.
If that doesn't work, you can still go up the chain, but try convincing them, rather than going over their heads, at first. Just, not in the middle of a game.
Hopefully you'll also get them to start thinking of you as someone who actually understands the rules, and should be listened to first, rather than immediately overruled.
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First of all, please don't refer to Feint as a maneuver. That just opens up inconsistent terminology.
But to get to case in hand, Feint says:
This attack must be made on or before your next turn.
Not, "on your current turn or before your next turn."
Instead it should be read/interpreted as: "This attack must be made [on your next turn] or before your next turn," as grammatically, they're both ("on" and "before") referring to your next turn.So whoever you were arguing with, yeah they're pretty much completely wrong. Are they actual VCs or just local organizers?
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It may have simply been a case of misunderstanding. I await an update after the follow up discussion has been had.
This. People aren't perfect. Even groups of people. Which is why I think it's premature to go over them and talk to the VC or RVC about it. Point them over to this thread, or the one in the rules forum. They are misreading the rule, and hopefully seeing so many people agreeing that they are misreading it will be enough. Feint works just fine without Improved Feint (or Two-Weapon Feint or whatever). You Feint one turn, you get the benefit on one attack, even if that one attack is on your next turn.
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Clarification on the incident, as I was the GM who made the ruling.
It was a misunderstanding, the wording from greater feint and the redundancy of the wording "on or before your next turn" rather than something like "before the end of your next turn" as many other abilities use had me confused.
I was running cold as we have had a large influx of new players and a shortage of GMs due to GM fatigue from our regulars.
I tried to handle the situation as best I could in the limited time I could, by explaining why I was ruling it that way, and then getting the only Venture Officer present to help on a ruling (I am not a VL or in any way an organizer for the group, just a person volunteering to GM), who sided with my ruling either to not undermine the GM or because he understood it as I did.
Do not present it as if all of the players were on your side during the ruling, at least two said that they could see it being read either way.
Instead of assuming that I won't listen, try just talking to me before or after the scenario instead of being confrontational. You might find that I am a pretty agreeable person when you don't immediately put me on the defensive and dismiss everything I say with "we'll see".
Sorry for the incorrect ruling. Enjoy your time here at our lodge.
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Do not present it as if all of the players were on your side during the ruling, at least two said that they could see it being read either way.
Remember though, someone seeing why you are understanding the rule a way, and agreeing with your ruling are different things. Plenty of times I have seen a GM rule in a manner against the way a mechanic worked because of the wording Pathfinder likes to use is not always clear. I understood why they misunderstood, but that did not mean I agreed with them.
As a GM I also know that it is a littler harder to want to hear the player's side of things when they are being combative. As the rest of us were not present for the game, there is no way to know how the interactions had been up to that point, though it does sound like maybe it was a bit tense.
On the brightside, you probably will not forget how feinting works going forward.
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I think the issue is that the wording of feint was not in fact vague, and you chose to rule in a way that hurt the player and actually made feinting actually do nothing. Running cold has nothing to do with ruling against something from the core rulebook.
Now I wasn't there, so maybe the player was confrontational or rude and if was off putting to you. But regardless, the grammar of the rule clearly leads to only one correct conclusion.
Anyways, I'd suggest that in the future if you're trying to speed things up by making a quick ruling on something you're unsure of, maybe lean towards the player friendly interpretation rather than the one that makes the option useless.
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If you dont know the rules that well perhaps you shouldnt be the DM.
Its a fairly unused rule to be honest. I'd have to look up Feint to use it correctly (or at least before this particular conversation I would have.) And I would say I'm a master of Pathfinder rules. You can't expect your GMs to be encyclopedias, that's just not fair. They aren't computers either.
And while I have my issues with running anything cold, the reason why its relevant is because when you do that, your focus and attention are to trying to get the adventure as right as you can for the players, and when dealing with rules items you can be a bit mentally distracted and your logic brain doesn't necessarily kick in correctly when parsing the oft-vague, ambiguous and poorly worded core rule book.
So until you've actually sat behind the GM screen a few times, maybe you shouldn't be making comments like this about someone who's willing to do so. Even if they are really new to the game, all GM's have to start somewhere.
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I think the issue is that the wording of feint was not in fact vague, and you chose to rule in a way that hurt the player and actually made feinting actually do nothing. Running cold has nothing to do with ruling against something from the core rulebook.
Now I wasn't there, so maybe the player was confrontational or rude and if was off putting to you. But regardless, the grammar of the rule clearly leads to only one correct conclusion.
Anyways, I'd suggest that in the future if you're trying to speed things up by making a quick ruling on something you're unsure of, maybe lean towards the player friendly interpretation rather than the one that makes the option useless.
This is a fair point, and one that I brought up above. I'm unclear why a player unfriendly ruling and bringing in another of higher authority would be brought in to help rule on something that really isn't game breaking at all.
It really is strange to me, that this became a rules argument when the end result would have had minimal impact on the game in the end run. In this case it is almost always best to rule in the favor of the players.
That being said, when I have a player who aggressively challenges me, for something that likely has no impact on the game like this, I have a tendency to want to say no, just to spite them for being a jerk to me. I do my best not to do that, but I am human.
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If you dont know the rules that well perhaps you shouldnt be the DM.
Its a fairly unused rule to be honest. I'd have to look up Feint to use it correctly (or at least before this particular conversation I would have.) And I would say I'm a master of Pathfinder rules. You can't expect your GMs to be encyclopedias, that's just not fair. They aren't computers either.
And while I have my issues with running anything cold, the reason why its relevant is because when you do that, your focus and attention are to trying to get the adventure as right as you can for the players, and when dealing with rules items you can be a bit mentally distracted and your logic brain doesn't necessarily kick in correctly when parsing the oft-vague, ambiguous and poorly worded core rule book.
So until you've actually sat behind the GM screen a few times, maybe you shouldn't be making comments like this about someone who's willing to do so. Even if they are really new to the game, all GM's have to start somewhere.
I have DMed numerous times. This isnt a wonky rule issue. This is glance at the core rulebook section and not trying to hose over a player.
Here were the choices for him
Option 1
Let the player do their thing with a suboptimal build and eke out a little more damage. Get ruling after game
Option 2
Say no to it working and grind the game to a halt as they show proof you are wrong. We can start diagramming sentences or we can just agree he was wrong.
Even assuming the GM has no rule knowledge and has to learn every rule at the table option 1 is still better.
My point is that people talk about as a player just going along with the dms ruling for the game and bringing it up later as being for the best is wrong. The dm should just let the players have their fun unless something wonky is going on. This wasnt a wonky sitation with room for interpretation.
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I bring up running cold because it is absolutely relevant, my focus was divided.
So divided in fact that the conversation got to the point of discussing the rules of using feint to bluff instead of just telling the player the attempt failed because the creature lacked an intelligence score.
And as I said before between Greater Feint's function, and the wording from the feint entry in bluff being worded as it is, I was under the impression that it was "your next attack on (this turn) or before your next turn"
The only reason I brought another person in to the conversation was because the player was being confrontational and would not let it go. And even after the the only VO present agreed with my ruling the player still refused to back down. And again, I don't know why the VO ruled with me if my reading was incorrect, but even after that the player continued to argue and eat up table time. I was just trying to keep things moving.
I was not trying to ruin a person's fun, if that were the case when I found out that the table probably wouldn't make if I didnt GM it instead of play it, I would have just gone home. I was making a call on what I thought was a correct reading of the rules, I was wrong.
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Can we stop beating on a volunteer GM that stepped up under fire and made a go of it, please?
It's not like they were trying to run it from a Post-It note or anything, right?
Back to the topic at hand: Given Feint works like that, why don't we see it more often at lower levels? Is it because of a perceived lack of utility?
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He was probably being confrontatial because he was right.
Notice how you had to add (this turn) to get your interpretation of the rules.
I dont know what the VO was thinking.
Thanks for dming. Is it normal for your groups to have dms just not show up for scheduled games like that or was this a weird night?
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If you dont know the rules that well perhaps you shouldnt be the DM.
Its a fairly unused rule to be honest. I'd have to look up Feint to use it correctly (or at least before this particular conversation I would have.) And I would say I'm a master of Pathfinder rules. You can't expect your GMs to be encyclopedias, that's just not fair. They aren't computers either.
And while I have my issues with running anything cold, the reason why its relevant is because when you do that, your focus and attention are to trying to get the adventure as right as you can for the players, and when dealing with rules items you can be a bit mentally distracted and your logic brain doesn't necessarily kick in correctly when parsing the oft-vague, ambiguous and poorly worded core rule book.
So until you've actually sat behind the GM screen a few times, maybe you shouldn't be making comments like this about someone who's willing to do so. Even if they are really new to the game, all GM's have to start somewhere.
I have DMed numerous times. This isnt a wonky rule issue. This is glance at the core rulebook section and not trying to hose over a player.
Here were the choices for him
Option 1
Let the player do their thing with a suboptimal build and eke out a little more damage. Get ruling after gameOption 2
Say no to it working and grind the game to a halt as they show proof you are wrong. We can start diagramming sentences or we can just agree he was wrong.Even assuming the GM has no rule knowledge and has to learn every rule at the table option 1 is still better.
My point is that people talk about as a player just going along with the dms ruling for the game and bringing it up later as being for the best is wrong. The dm should just let the players have their fun unless something wonky is going on. This wasnt a wonky sitation with room for interpretation.
I don't doubt that you've GM'd plenty of times. But you've GM'd less than 10 reported times for PFS. So until you have a wealth of experience with the animal that organized play is, with time constraints and such, then calling someone out for making a mistake in that they shouldn't GM is just not fair.
You'll also note, if you've read the thread at all, that I agreed that the GM got the ruling wrong. But certainly there were mitigating circumstances it seems.
Additionally, people are human, they make mistakes. The GM has acknowledged that he got the rule wrong. Now he'll know about that rule for future reference.
This isn't a legal situation where getting a rule wrong might cost someone prison time. Give the guy a break, geesh.
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Can we stop beating on a volunteer GM that stepped up under fire and made a go of it, please?
It's not like they were trying to run it from a Post-It note or anything, right?
Back to the topic at hand: Given Feint works like that, why don't we see it more often at lower levels? Is it because of a perceived lack of utility?
Largely I think its a function of action economy. At levels 1-5 your action economy already sucks enough, that reducing it by half really is a suboptimal choice. However, I can see some reasons for doing so. Like say you are fighting a creature with hardness or DR that your meager damage without sneak attack is doing next to nothing to nothing. So you do what you can to ensure yourself a sneak attack, even if that is reducing your action economy to half.
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I bring up running cold because it is absolutely relevant, my focus was divided.
So divided in fact that the conversation got to the point of discussing the rules of using feint to bluff instead of just telling the player the attempt failed because the creature lacked an intelligence score.
Recognizing when a table argument is moot and should be dismissed is a difficult skill to master. Alas, making mistakes is how we learn.
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He was probably being confrontatial because he was right.
Honestly, that isn't an excuse. There is not an excuse for being a jerk to anyone (even if you think they were a jerk first). Certainly no excuse to a volunteer or while playing a game.
Especially if the rule gotten wrong really isn't going to matter all that much in the end run.
Just suck it up, move on, and discuss it after the game calmly.
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Give the guy a break, geesh.
This.
Also with Feint being unused often(I have a two weapon feint build in an AP so I had to get real familiar, but my GM had to read the rules again the first time it came up), I know many experienced GMs that fail to remember all the nuances of how it works without having to reference the CRB.
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Recognizing when a table argument is moot and should be dismissed is a difficult skill to master. Alas, making mistakes is how we learn.I bring up running cold because it is absolutely relevant, my focus was divided.
So divided in fact that the conversation got to the point of discussing the rules of using feint to bluff instead of just telling the player the attempt failed because the creature lacked an intelligence score.
agreed. ultimately no character died, so no harm, no foul. Now the GM knows.
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He was probably being confrontatial because he was right.
Honestly, that isn't an excuse. There is not an excuse for being a jerk to anyone (even if you think they were a jerk first). Certainly no excuse to a volunteer or while playing a game.
Especially if the rule gotten wrong really isn't going to matter all that much in the end run.
Just suck it up, move on, and discuss it after the game calmly.
You're right about there not a good reason for an excuse, that the GM being a volunteer isn't an excuse for making up rulings and not following correct rules in PFS.
If the GM was worried about speeding up the table he should have just gone with the player's (correct) view, "Especially if the rule gotten wrong really isn't going to matter all that much in the end run." and not been a jerk and shut down the player's option for no reason other than he wanted to read the rules incorrectly.I know I've almost walked out on a table and left the party to die to mummies when the GM refused to correct a ruling after being informed of the FAQ that said he was wrong.
If you're unfamiliar with a rule, go with the player that does know the rule rather than coming up with an incorrect rule that goes against the player.
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He was probably being confrontatial because he was right.
Honestly, that isn't an excuse. There is not an excuse for being a jerk to anyone (even if you think they were a jerk first). Certainly no excuse to a volunteer or while playing a game.
Especially if the rule gotten wrong really isn't going to matter all that much in the end run.
Just suck it up, move on, and discuss it after the game calmly.
You're right about there not a good reason for an excuse, that the GM being a volunteer isn't an excuse for making up rulings and not following correct rules in PFS.
If the GM was worried about speeding up the table he should have just gone with the player's (correct) view, "Especially if the rule gotten wrong really isn't going to matter all that much in the end run." and not been a jerk and shut down the player's option for no reason other than he wanted to read the rules incorrectly.I know I've almost walked out on a table and left the party to die to mummies when the GM refused to correct a ruling after being informed of the FAQ that said he was wrong.
If you're unfamiliar with a rule, go with the player that does know the rule rather than coming up with an incorrect rule that goes against the player.
Way to twist my words to give a player the right to be a jerk to the GM.
GMs are human. They will make mistakes, and they will get things wrong. If you are going to be a jerk to them about it while that's happening, then you are going to likely cause the GM to become defensive and shut down to any thought of capitulating for the best of the table. And frankly, that's the fault of the player being overly aggressive and confrontational.
It doesn't matter if the GM was wrong.
There is a right way, and a wrong way to handle those situations. Being confrontational, aggressive and a jerk is not the correct way to handle things.
The goal is to get as many things as possible correct as many times as possible. The expectation of the players can never be perfection, because that's impossible.
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Let's see, one person wants to use a rules legal option and goes to do so and then gets told by the GM that they can't do that. Player pulls out rules to show GM the correct ruling, GM refuses to be corrected and insist that his ruling that invalidates the player's option is correct. Player is then very annoyed and disinterested in the game going off well because the GM is making up rules. And continuously brings up that the GM is wrong, cause he is.
Yeah, sure the player COULD have been nicer, but as you're saying we're all human, and it's far easier to sympathize with the offended player than with the GM in this situation. And all of the arguments to the player to "chill it wasn't a big deal" apply even more to the GM in the situation to just rule in favor of the player. Because really the GM is calling the player a liar and incompetent at understanding rules by holding onto their incorrect ruling. And I know it's VERY nettling to have a GM not care about getting the rule correct even after you've shown them the rule.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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Let's see, one person wants to use a rules legal option and goes to do so and then gets told by the GM that they can't do that. Player pulls out rules to show GM the correct ruling, GM refuses to be corrected and insist that his ruling that invalidates the player's option is correct. Player is then very annoyed and disinterested in the game going off well because the GM is making up rules. And continuously brings up that the GM is wrong, cause he is.
Yeah, sure the player COULD have been nicer, but as you're saying we're all human, and it's far easier to sympathize with the offended player than with the GM in this situation. And all of the arguments to the player to "chill it wasn't a big deal" apply even more to the GM in the situation to just rule in favor of the player. Because really the GM is calling the player a liar and incompetent at understanding rules by holding onto their incorrect ruling. And I know it's VERY nettling to have a GM not care about getting the rule correct even after you've shown them the rule.
The GM here did what they were supposed to do when flustered, and called in a VO to make a ruling.
Ultimately, the GM was right, not the player. Feint would not have had an effect on a mindless creature. They were just wrong about the reason.