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Every few years PFS has an specialty boon auction at GenCon to raise money for a given charity. I like the idea of raising money for a charity. However, I don't particularly like the boon auction. I know this has been raised before, but as GenCon is just a few weeks away I thought I put out an alternate idea (maybe not even a new one).
My suggestion, sell raffle tickets say at $5 each or 3 for $10. Have a series of charity boons (like being able to play a Kobold - hint, hint). People can place their tickets in any of the jars they wish corresponding to each boon. Names are drawn Sunday at noon.
I like this better because more people are contributing and participating. And I think you'll raise more money.
Or you could draw the names at 11:00 pm on Saturday and have boons like: Thurstan will personally GM a table of Starfinder 1-00 Sunday morning (six tickets pulled). Or John Compton will personally GM a table of _____ (six tickets pulled).
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Every few years PFS has an specialty boon auction at GenCon to raise money for a given charity. I like the idea of raising money for a charity. However, I don't particularly like the boon auction. I know this has been raised before, but as GenCon is just a few weeks away I thought I put out an alternate idea (maybe not even a new one).
My suggestion, sell raffle tickets say at $5 each or 3 for $10. Have a series of charity boons (like being able to play a Kobold - hint, hint). People can place their tickets in any of the jars they wish corresponding to each boon. Names are drawn Sunday at noon.
I like this better because more people are contributing and participating. And I think you'll raise more money.
Or you could draw the names at 11:00 pm on Saturday and have boons like: Thurstan will personally GM a table of Starfinder 1-00 Sunday morning (six tickets pulled). Or John Compton will personally GM a table of _____ (six tickets pulled).
There are some difficulties with that last part -- what if someone volunteered or is GMing in that slot? Are they expected to give up that opportunity because they are already committed?
In addition, the 'spend to win' will be there still, it's just that it will be hidden and unseen.
The methodology you mention is a very interesting one, because the past few auctions have left me feeling very cold and icky inside due to not having the finances to engage in the 'pay to win' bidding war that seems to erupt around the rare boons one-offs.
Perhaps a different solution would be to offer an awesome 'consolation' Boon for all bidders, provided they pay in their bid to the charity, in addition to the 'grand boons'?
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You wouldn't enter a raffle for a timeslot you were busy.
Exactly!
pay to win wouldn't be nearly as workable, you'd have to outbid ALL the geeks instead of any one geek.
Not exactly. If I purchased one ticket, you purchased 99 tickets and we were the only ones to place them in Jar A, an "Extra Feat" boon, I would still have a 1% chance of winning the boon.
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Not sure I like the idea of a consolation boon. Sounds too much like a participation trophy. The reality is, with a auction/raffle, someone has to win, and someone has to lose. Though if it influenced a significant increase in donations (maybe coupled with a raffle-type system) most of us would accept it for sake of the charity. Cause remember the point isn't the prize/s, its the charity we are supporting. The boon or whatever is just a minor thank you. IIRC, the assassin boon as an example, sold for well over $500. I doubt the player (who I happen to know) got $500 play value out of the boon (course I'm sure it was a tax write-off). I don't much care for the idea that this is a "pay to play" issue either. If everyone could "buy" the boon, then maybe, but it was a one-time reward for donating a relatively large amount of money to a charity. THAT is the real prize.
I can certainly see the value in doing a raffle over an auction. I will take this idea to the Lead team for consideration. Course the final approval comes from Tonya and Paizo, but we'll make sure to bring this topic to their attention.
Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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I remember us discussing this some time ago, and one of the issues that came up was a raffle being considered a form of gambling, which in turn introduced legal, licensing, and contractual concerns. My recollection of how that shook out is hazy, but I recall there being significant obstacles—not sure that they were insurmountable.
We can likely investigate again, but the same issues might still impede a raffle approach.
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Bob, John,
Thanks for looking into this. After John's comments I did a quick search and I found this Charity Gaming from the state of Indiana. I'm not a lawyer but it looks like:
1) A raffle is considered gambling.
2) A non-profit in Indiana can have a charity gambling event.
3) Paizo is for profit. :-)
4) It's not insurmountable for a charity to have a raffle if the value of what they are raffling off isn't that much.
But, Paizo (or the person willing to run a game) could donate the prizes to the charity and the charity could hold the raffle.
I have no idea what extra hoops/regulations the ICC may place on this.
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Whatever charity was being raised for would raise a lot more money if more people felt they actually had a chance to get a thing.
When exceptionally rare boons are offered at auction, the price rapidly goes through the roof and becomes unobtainable for all but the monied few, which then chases the other participants off, so it becomes exceptionally restrictive and non-community building.
If there were some way to allow those who have a modest sum of money to contribute to a good cause and perhaps get something to show for it accross the board, that's not so much a 'participation' award as a 'This was a thing one earned through donation'.
More donation=better news for everyone.
EDIT: Food for thought, inspired by morning coffee somehow.
In past years, playing Pathfinder games awarded tokens, which one could then redeem for Boons or other valuable/fun things.
What if the tokens(in some quantity) were also awarded to those who bid for a given charity item, even if they didn't have the highest bid but committed to the highest bid they placed?
Is it too cumbersome to work out?
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Which is why having *more* people having their money *count* is crucial.
I *was* going to bid in the auctions I thought were keen last year... and then the bids were so astronomical that it was like 'well, nevermind, I'd like to be able to eat the next six months'.
There needs to either be some sort of 'lower tier/capped bid' auction (perhaps with dozens or scores of boons?) or some way to make the auction bids 'worth something'.
Otherwise, that ticket gets sold *once*, which is very inefficient and promulgates the 'pay2win' mentality for those that have a lot of cash/lack of financial obligations.
That mindset is corrosive to community-building.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia
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Yup.
I was excited to get involved with the auction last year but someone went around and bid 50 or 100 on every auction to start it off which is more than I can afford to give. By a day or two in they were all in the several hundred range.
I might be just as happy to spend 50 bucks on raffle tickets or some other lower tier/capped option just to get in on it.
I think there actually were a few less "One of a Kind" items that did go for less last year (the pinset) and I was in on that one until the very end. Just a thought.
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Devil's advocate. Selling one boon for $600 or selling 6 boons for $100 doesn't change the donation to the charity. As Walter said, the target to exceed is $3000. Will we sell enough raffle tickets to make the extra effort worth it? If we end up with less, certainly not. If we end up with a similar amount, the extra work required to manage a raffle was not worth it.
If we were to do a raffle, we would need to sell 3000+ tickets at $1 each just to meet last year. Will enough people buy tickets to actually do that? Dunno. Want to increase the rate? We raise the ticket price to $5 each. Now we need only sell 600+ tickets to make target. Again, will we get enough people to do that? Dunno
We can wish, or guess, etc that we'll get enough participants, but no one really knows the answer to that. Sticking with the auction, is almost a guarantee that we'll get about the same level of support. However, taking the raffle risk could significantly increase or perhaps decrease that amount.
This of course assumes that its even possible. Indy may have gambling rules preventing the raffle at all. Even then we have to consider things like who is managing the money? Where is it being secured? Where will the transactions occur? How do we prevent fake tickets from appearing? Etc. These are all questions that the Gen Con leadership is trying to work out
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The chits are acceptable for use at the boon rolling table, which is why I mentioned them as a possibility?
Perhaps folks could drop their chits from playing in with their name wrapped around them or in an envelope?
It'd be a 'different way of redeeming' them, but it wouldn't be a raffle, per se?
I'm trying to figure out ideas and possibilities here to make it more inclusive and community building while still working within the rules.
If there's only a smidgen of high-auction items, then the people who have a lot of disposable cash will once again triumph, and we as a Society will be poorer for it, as will any charity we attempt to raise money for.
Sure, we might beat a previous year's goal, but only because the same people are engaging in bidding wars to get the thing, versus any sense of altruism or fair play.
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Or Paizo can Donate the boons to the Charity Auction that happens Saturday Evening and advertise what boons are being offered near HQ or the Token exchange.
I dislike the idea of participation boons for an auction. The driving force is the rarity or value of the item. Like gold foiled signed Star Finder and Pathfinder Core Rule Books. The one donated (Pathfinder) to the Charity a few years back did not make as much as the one offered up in the ballroom. If Paizo had stated that other books or even products had been donated to the Saturday Charity Auction in addition to the Boon and Books they had done that year. Those books would have gone for a lot more.
I have attended the Saturday Auction every Gen Con for the last 12 Years. Those who donate end up having increased traffic to their booths just on curiosity and a thank you from those who attended. The Guy who won the Mummy"s Card Game also bought Shackles Sunday. Plus on word from Frank Mentz got one of his iconic character cards signed by Reynolds. It's the little things that make a lasting impact for the Charity Auction and bring people back.
Same can be said for Paizo. I would like to see not just boons, but more personalized stuff from Paizo Staff. A painted mini from Eric Mona. A Pathfinder Character made by John Compton. Have Lisa Stevens Beat Box for your Bard's Inspire Couage and recorded for a sound board or cell phone . No matter what you Ladies and Gentlmen decide to do. Please participate in the auction.
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I dislike the idea of participation boons for an auction. The driving force is the rarity or value of the item. Like gold foiled signed Star Finder and Pathfinder Core Rule Books. The one donated (Pathfinder) to the Charity a few years back did not make as much as the one offered up in the ballroom. If Paizo had stated that other books or even products had been donated to the Saturday Charity Auction in addition to the Boon and Books they had done that year. Those books would have gone for a lot more.I have attended the Saturday Auction every Gen Con for the last 12 Years. Those who donate end up having increased traffic to their booths just on curiosity and a thank you from those who attended. The Guy who won the Mummy"s Card Game also bought Shackles Sunday. Plus on word from Frank Mentz got one of his iconic character cards signed by Reynolds. It's the little things that make a lasting impact for the Charity Auction and bring people back.
Same can be said for Paizo. I would like to see not just boons, but more personalized stuff from Paizo Staff. A painted mini from Eric Mona. A Pathfinder Character made by John Compton. Have Lisa Stevens Beat Box for your Bard's Inspire Couage and recorded for a sound board or cell phone . No matter what you Ladies and Gentlmen decide to do. Please participate in the auction.
I'd love to, except the non-Ballroom Auction would be a non-starter for me as I'll be volunteering Saturday evening, and I have a solid personal rule BESIDES that because I get wrapped into 'bidding wars' and that isn't good for anyone, much less a community.
In addition, the Ballroom boons rapidly inflate their prices to 'beyond the average person who is already shelling out a significant amount of time and money to *attend the show*', so it becomes very much the province of those who 'have disposable cash', and divides the community as well.
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I don't want to sound argumentative, but is this really an issue of community or your inability to afford the high value of the item? The reality is some people just have more money than others and willing to spend it on gaming and/or charity. Would it be better if the "big spenders" sat on the sideline watching everyone else frantically bid a little at time, back-and-forth, and then jump in at the last minute, add a zero to the high bid and win it anyway?
Let's assume for the moment that a raffle is not an option. How do we maximize the charity support while making it meaningful for all involved? Printing multiple copies of the same boon/prize is not going to happen so let's take that off the table.
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I don't want to sound argumentative, but is this really an issue of community or your inability to afford the high value of the item? The reality is some people just have more money than others and willing to spend it on gaming and/or charity. Would it be better if the "big spenders" sat on the sideline watching everyone else frantically bid a little at time, back-and-forth, and then jump in at the last minute, add a zero to the high bid and win it anyway?
I have seen this happen even under current and previous systems. I have even seen people who have looked at the name of the person bidding and made it their personal mission to ruin said person financially once their limit was reached, usually by putting the 'winning' bid one minimum increment above the last bid.
Let's assume for the moment that a raffle is not an option. How do we maximize the charity support while making it meaningful for all involved? Printing multiple copies of the same boon/prize is not going to happen so let's take that off the table.
I raised the idea of boon tokens earlier, though there were complaints about 'participation prizes'.
This could be run either as a donation marker or for a certain number of dollars bid (though that ties back into the concern about 'pay to win').
Alternatively, having a broader base (but still reasonably exclusive, say, perhaps, ten or fifteen boons for a spitball) of boons for auctioning, without having the same boon/prize, using the Boon Table as a suggested list?
A sort of 'second chance' if a given person is really heart-set on a given boon and they can't seem to be able to roll it at the Boon table?
Alternatively, if there are different products or items that are limited run/offered only at Specials (miniatures in the past come to mind), perhaps some of those could likewise be put up for bid?
On the outside corner, other items like signed rulebooks, artwork, commission offers, or the like might be other valid items, too?
And just to head a bit of this off at the pass, I know "What hours to coordinate all this?" would be a consideration.
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Let's assume for the moment that a raffle is not an option. How do we maximize the charity support while making it meaningful for all involved? Printing multiple copies of the same boon/prize is not going to happen so let's take that off the table.
You'd have to do something really weird, like have a multi table special where your bidding champion gets an extra virtual dollar for every success the peons earned or something. The champion gets the boon and his peons get some sort of prize.
I harness this turnip: FOR TALDOR!
don't want to sound argumentative, but is this really an issue of community or your inability to afford the high value of the item?
I remember a few years ago someone ( Mike Brock?) lamenting how little attention the charity auction received from the fanbase. Thats pretty much why. A raffle would fix that. Even if your odds of winning are low you'd still be able to dream about it.
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Unless you cap each boon at say $50 and limit each bid to $1 or $2, that's exactly what would happen. And if the number of rare books remain singular each and a dozen in total between them all, then the draw would only be $600.
Since this is for charity, those who can't afford high prices probably need to suck bbqnit up and be happy that charity is getting a crap ton of money. I have yet to win one of these super cool boons despite being able to afford them, because I gave myself a limit on gaming spending.
Flat out, giving everyone a shot to win earns charity less money. The point is getting charity more money, not putting boons out there in a fair and equitable manner.
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And here is where the divide comes in.
I think by giving more options and making it more accessible to everyone will promote a greater participation, whereas the conventional thinking is limit options and hope for a few significant bidders to outdo themselves.
As far as 'suck bbqunit up'?
That's not very community building.
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The gaming industry survives off "whale" spenders who spend a massive amount of money compared to other people. It's just the truth. It is much more likely a very small minority could raise the majority of money for a charity. It also complies with the local regulations.
While on the topic I hope Ghoran, Wyvaran, or even Kasatha show up. I would pitch in for those or maybe a cool prestige class.
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The gaming industry survives off "whale" spenders who spend a massive amount of money compared to other people. It's just the truth. It is much more likely a very small minority could raise the majority of money for a charity. It also complies with the local regulations.
While on the topic I hope Ghoran, Wyvaran, or even Kasatha show up. I would pitch in for those or maybe a cool prestige class.
Then perhaps the paradigm needs to be revisited before the industry prices itself out of reach of the average person?
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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And here is where the divide comes in.I think by giving more options and making it more accessible to everyone will promote a greater participation, whereas the conventional thinking is limit options and hope for a few significant bidders to outdo themselves.
As far as 'suck bbqunit up'?
That's not very community building.
Is that the metric you are trying to optimize for? Participation?
I'm still not sure what problem you are vying to solve.
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Then perhaps the paradigm needs to be revisited before the industry prices itself out of reach of the average person?The gaming industry survives off "whale" spenders who spend a massive amount of money compared to other people. It's just the truth. It is much more likely a very small minority could raise the majority of money for a charity. It also complies with the local regulations.
While on the topic I hope Ghoran, Wyvaran, or even Kasatha show up. I would pitch in for those or maybe a cool prestige class.
These are free to play game models though. They will never be priced out of reach of someone because they don't cost the average user anything at all. They survive purely from the spending of the top 2% of players typically. Everyone else gets the benefits of that.
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I'm still not sure what problem you are vying to solve.
*backfoot headscratch* This is really straightforward. I don't get whats not coming across as the problem.
1)The auction as it currently exists is only relevant to the 5 people who can afford to drop 500 dollars on boons. No one else has any reason to care about it, remember it exists, pay attention to it, look in on it, place a bid or interact with it in any way shape or form. If i have a dollar and a dream of kobolds i can enter a raffle. If all i have is a dollar i cannot win a bid for a kobold boon.
2) There is possibly more money to be made having 500 people dropping a buck or 2 than 1 person dropping 500 bucks.
There's a good argument to be made that participation and profit aren't mutually exclusive.
I was looking at indiana's gaming regulations. As long as the value of the item being sold for charity is under 1,000 you can file for a waiver (but it takes 30 days, so at best this is a convo for something to take place next year)
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These are free to play game models though. They will never be priced out of reach of someone because they don't cost the average user anything at all. They survive purely from the spending of the top 2% of players typically. Everyone else gets the benefits of that.
The barest minimum I will have to spend to play Pathfinder CORE is 9.99 *PROVIDED* I already spent for a reader that can read a .pdf
Alternatively, Scratch and Dent for a hardcover is 37.49 prior to S&H.
The softcover is a little bit cheaper at 24.99 prior to S&H
That's to play the 'bare bones version' of Pathfinder. The prices go up from there.
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I was looking at indiana's gaming regulations. As long as the value of the item being sold for charity is under 1,000 you can file for a waiver (but it takes 30 days, so at best this is a convo for something to take place next year)
It is the value of all items, not a single one, that can't exceed $1000 without a license and this exception waiver is only for qualified organizations which Paizo is not.
If they planned for it next year a qualified organization (probably the charity itself) would be able to apply for a license and could raise up to the $3000 limit per event. Paizo could donate their boons to that organization who could hold it. Maybe it be possible to hold a raffle and an auction?
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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We have revisited how we're handling the auction, and the new model expands the accessibility of auction boons beyond the highest bidder (while still accommodating highest bidders), reduces the degree to which people can camp out at the table to outbid all comers, and should generally make for a more enjoyable auction process.
And no, it's not a raffle.
EDIT: Oh, and I anticipate it will also bring in more money for this year's charity.
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We have revisited how we're handling the auction, and the new model expands the accessibility of auction boons beyond the highest bidder (while still accommodating highest bidders), reduces the degree to which people can camp out at the table to outbid all comers, and should generally make for a more enjoyable auction process.
And no, it's not a raffle.
Drinking contest?
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Pathfinder Society Lead Developer
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Drinking contest?
We have revisited how we're handling the auction, and the new model expands the accessibility of auction boons beyond the highest bidder (while still accommodating highest bidders), reduces the degree to which people can camp out at the table to outbid all comers, and should generally make for a more enjoyable auction process.
And no, it's not a raffle.
If Thursty really wants a boon, he can ask. No need to throw off the grading curve for the rest of us.
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We have revisited how we're handling the auction, and the new model expands the accessibility of auction boons beyond the highest bidder (while still accommodating highest bidders), reduces the degree to which people can camp out at the table to outbid all comers, and should generally make for a more enjoyable auction process.
And no, it's not a raffle.
EDIT: Oh, and I anticipate it will also bring in more money for this year's charity.
Thank you very much for looking at this! Good luck with the edits and get some quality rest when you sleep!
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I know what it is, you are implementing the auction from Paths We Choose!I hope not. That just seemed like it was adding layers of complication ti wind up with the same results.
Oh, that's WHAT that was?
I thought it was an effort (in retrospect) to make single-table Special events have a 'tie to the story' and 'immerse the Ballroom in monumental teamwork'.
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We have revisited how we're handling the auction, and the new model expands the accessibility of auction boons beyond the highest bidder (while still accommodating highest bidders), reduces the degree to which people can camp out at the table to outbid all comers, and should generally make for a more enjoyable auction process.
And no, it's not a raffle.
EDIT: Oh, and I anticipate it will also bring in more money for this year's charity.
Thanks for listening. Looking forward to participating in this new system.
Everyone, also remember that these charities fundraisers should be as much about learning more about the charity as well as the funds raised.