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Last, Improvised weapons are very impressive in the hands of something with very high strength. Sure, manufactured weapons would be more impressive, but they don't really need them most of the time. And need is a big factor if play in a game where roleplaying is important."Sir, that is not an improvised weapon; it is a club."
And with those words the item can be made masterwork and enchanted.
But then it isn't improvised, and can't benefit from archetypes or feats which benefit improvised weapons.
And, personally, I think a craft check is required to make that tree branch into a suitable club.
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Shame that's never been said so they can't be.Last, Improvised weapons are very impressive in the hands of something with very high strength. Sure, manufactured weapons would be more impressive, but they don't really need them most of the time. And need is a big factor if play in a game where roleplaying is important."Sir, that is not an improvised weapon; it is a club."
And with those words the item can be made masterwork and enchanted.
It was said, in the very post you quoted.
To use an example: a tree branch is an improvised weapon, club (simple weapon), or great club (martial weapon) based solely on the intent of the user.
Shame that's never been said so they can't be.Last, Improvised weapons are very impressive in the hands of something with very high strength. Sure, manufactured weapons would be more impressive, but they don't really need them most of the time. And need is a big factor if play in a game where roleplaying is important."Sir, that is not an improvised weapon; it is a club."
And with those words the item can be made masterwork and enchanted.
It was said, in the very post you quoted.
To use an example: a tree branch is an improvised weapon, club (simple weapon), or great club (martial weapon) based solely on the intent of the user.
Not that it means anything, but a club is described as a piece of "shaped" wood, implying crafting of sorts.
The great club's description on the other hand does mention a tree branch being suitable. So that bears the question is a tree branch actually an improvised weapon or is it really a great club by default?
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To use an example: a tree branch is an improvised weapon, club (simple weapon), or great club (martial weapon) based solely on the intent of the user.
Up to the GM. Yes, the GM is able to rule that a given tree branch is a Club, Greatclub, or Improvised weapon, but that's the GM, not the player making that distinction.
For the player, you have a tree branch. It is an improvised weapon if you use it as one. You could use a craft (weapons) check to make it into a manufactured weapon. Or you could just ask the GM if it can be a club (or greatclub) instead.
On the flip side, if you have a manufactured club, you could hit them with the "hilt" as an improvised attack. Though when using a magic club in this manner, you don't apply any magical enhancements or other abilities of the magic weapon when using it to make improvised attacks.
PS regarding the use of Craft to make a club from a tree branch. DC 12 to make a simple weapon. You can do it untrained, no material cost, and you'd get +2 on the roll if you had a related tool (like a knife or axe). So with 10 intelligence and a dagger, you could take 10 and auto-succeed. Unless you are playing an unusually low INT character, it's functionally a player choice to "upgrade" a tree branch to a club.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The living grimore uses and improved book, gives it enhancement bonuses. Once done it's no longer improvised per a Mark Seifter post (on a cell or I'd look up link.)
So once you figure a way to enchant and improvised weapon, it's no longer improvised and no longer gets things like surprise weapon trait.
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I also read the last 60 posts. The rules work because you read the rules in a conversation way. Not in a legal/law way and twist every word to non-designed (intended) ways.
WotC 3.5 forums were useless (in my opinion) for rules discussions. The dominant position in 3.5 in the run up the 4e was the worship of RAW over the design philosophy of 3.5 rules. That resulted in silly interpretations like Pun Pun and the persisted spell giving you 24*60*60/6 ft movement in a round.
So let's do what we can to have useful discussion for players and GM.
Shame that's never been said so they can't be.Last, Improvised weapons are very impressive in the hands of something with very high strength. Sure, manufactured weapons would be more impressive, but they don't really need them most of the time. And need is a big factor if play in a game where roleplaying is important."Sir, that is not an improvised weapon; it is a club."
And with those words the item can be made masterwork and enchanted.
It was said, in the very post you quoted.
To use an example: a tree branch is an improvised weapon, club (simple weapon), or great club (martial weapon) based solely on the intent of the user.
Not that it means anything, but a club is described as a piece of "shaped" wood, implying crafting of sorts.
The great club's description on the other hand does mention a tree branch being suitable. So that bears the question is a tree branch actually an improvised weapon or is it really a great club by default?
Given that the list of possible items capable of being used is open ended and diverse, nearly anything can be used as a club. Manufactured or not.
The second you declare it as a club, there is no dispute that it can be targeted by Masterwork Transformation.
The difference between a club and a great club is the number of hands used to hold it, but that changes based both an character size and over-sized / under-sized weapons. (A great club for a gnome is a standard club for a human or a small great club for a human.)
I also read the last 60 posts. The rules work because you read the rules in a conversation way. Not in a legal/law way and twist every word to non-designed (intended) ways.
You mean like arguing that
Unarmed Strike != Unarmed Attack
When RAW says
An unarmed strike from a medium creature deals 1d3 points of bludgeoning damage ...
striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head buts ...
Yea, not at all trying to twist things, when Unarmed Strike a literally defined within the unarmed attack rules.
The living grimore uses and improved book, gives it enhancement bonuses. Once done it's no longer improvised per a Mark Seifter post (on a cell or I'd look up link.)
So once you figure a way to enchant and improvised weapon, it's no longer improvised and no longer gets things like surprise weapon trait.
Combat Scabbards beg to differ.
Nothing in the rules removes the improvised property and nothing in the rules says to treat combat scabbards differently than any other improvised weapon.
The only thing the rules state is that characters take a -4 non proficiency penalty for using an improvised weapon.
Anything beyond that is adding rules that simply do not exist within RAW.
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You can say it all you like, but the rules and the developer make it clear an unarmed strike is a subclass of unarmed attacks which include gauntlet, armed spells attacks.
I really don't get the desire to twist things and reject developer comments in how the rules are and what they mean.
The whole design space of improvised is non weapons. If you have an enhancement bonus to a weapon it's no longer improvised.
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A great club for a gnome is a standard club for a human or a small great club for a human.
Not in rules.
A club sized for a medium creature, wielded by a small creature, remains a club, but suffers a penalty on attack and requires more hands to wield. This matters a lot of feats like Weapon Focus and for spells like Shillelagh, which both require specific weapons, but do not care if the weapon is an over or under sized version of that weapon. An oversized club is NOT a greatclub, it is just an oversized club.
Yes, the greatclub is designed based on an oversized club, but in pathfinder, they are distinctly different weapons.
A great club for a gnome is a standard club for a human or a small great club for a human.Not in rules.
A club sized for a medium creature, wielded by a small creature, remains a club, but suffers a penalty on attack and requires more hands to wield. This matters a lot of feats like Weapon Focus and for spells like Shillelagh, which both require specific weapons, but do not care if the weapon is an over or under sized version of that weapon. An oversized club is NOT a greatclub, it is just an oversized club.
Yes, the greatclub is designed based on an oversized club, but in pathfinder, they are distinctly different weapons.
A great club is defined as being a club to large to be used in a single hand.
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.
Standard rules for inappropriately sized weapons apply to clubs, lacking specif RAW to the contrary.
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.
Given those rules we have the following scenario:
A human and a gnome find a stick laying in the forest. The human can use the stick one handed, but it is large enough that the gnome requires two hands to swing the stick effectively.
The gnome picks the stick up and declares it would make a fine great club (1d8 dmg). Taking the great club from the gnome the human gives it a few test swings (inappropriately sized, -2 to-hit, 1d8 dmg). After a few test swings he disagrees with the gnome and states it is not a great club, it is just a normal club (1d6 dmg).
After watching the human, who obviously lacks the skill to effectively hit things with sticks, the gnome retrieves his great club (1d8 damage) and proceeds to show the human the proper way to use a stick.
Had the gnome agreed the stick was a regular club and attempted to use it (inappropriately sized, -2 to-hit, 1d6 dmg) it would have been an insult to sticks everywhere.
Meanwhile, their friend, the elven wizard, is having an existential crisis as the gnomes requests a masterwork transformation on his newly found stick (he thought it was an improvised weapon) and apparently the spell works.
Hmm, I would think that a Gnomish Greatclub would be slightly larger and heavier than a Human Club, given the difference in their statistics. For example, a Human Club does a d6, weighs 3 lbs., and can be thrown; meanwhile a Gnomish Greatclub does a d8, weighs 4 lbs., and cannot be thrown.
Their disparate masses alone indicate they cannot be the same physical object. Sticks just don't typically gain or lose mass depending upon who is holding them.
** spoiler omitted **
It says "This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer." It is not however a light hammer.
What I'd like to know is HOW you actually create this item. You can't create a mastercraft tankard weapon to enchant it in the first place so do you enchant a mastercraft light hammer and then somehow transform it into a tankard afterwards? As-is, it seems a Cailean Fighting Tankard is impossible to create.
Or is there some 'unwritten' way to make a non-weapon act like a masterwork item so you can enchant it?
The living grimore uses and improved book, gives it enhancement bonuses. Once done it's no longer improvised per a Mark Seifter post (on a cell or I'd look up link.)
So once you figure a way to enchant and improvised weapon, it's no longer improvised and no longer gets things like surprise weapon trait.
But HOW does it get changed from a non-weapon to a real weapon? it doesn't matter for the grimore as it just happens off stage but it matters for the tankard.
And food for thought, a deck of cards can be enchanted even though they aren't mastercrafted, aren't created as weapons and are only used as weapons with a feat. Then think about how they are still magic weapons even when held be someone unable to use them as a weapon.
Heck you can even enchant your clockwork arm even though it's not a masterwork weapon...
EDIT: I wonder if people that can treat improvised weapons as other weapons can make masterwork versions. For instance, someone with Cayden Cailean's Blade and Tankard, that can wield a tankard as a light mace, might be able to make a masterwork tankard. That'd at least explain how a Cailean Fighting Tankard could be made.
For my home games, I usually tell players interested in Improvised Weapons that while I will allow them to fashion Masterwork Improvised Weapons themselves (for example, a Tankard which is expensive, but especially sturdy, and well balanced for thwacking people with), they will almost never find a masterwork or magical Improvised Weapon. Because what wizard is gonna go out of his way to make a +1 Flaming Skillet when they can make a +1 Flaming Heavy Mace instead.
Because what wizard is gonna go out of his way to make a +1 Flaming Skillet when they can make a +1 Flaming Heavy Mace instead.
Once the game's added a class that all about switching between 'super hero' and 'mundane' persona's, that "+1 Flaming Skillet" seems much more likely. That +1 Flaming Heavy Mace is a LOT harder to explain when you're pretending to be a cook that the skillet. Even better if you can control the heat from Flaming so you can cook with it without a fire.
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** spoiler omitted **
It says "This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer." It is not however a light hammer.
What I'd like to know is HOW you actually create this item. You can't create a mastercraft tankard weapon to enchant it in the first place so do you enchant a mastercraft light hammer and then somehow transform it into a tankard afterwards? As-is, it seems a Cailean Fighting Tankard is impossible to create.
Or is there some 'unwritten' way to make a non-weapon act like a masterwork item so you can enchant it?
I'd handle it as a weapon. For part of the masterworking, I'd allow the crafter to customize the appearance (maybe make the mace look like a tankard). Within reason, sure, but weapon appearance matters little in game balance. It is a masterwork item after all, some use of art in the creation seems almost mandatory. Typically, players would choose to make the weapon seem pretty or more fearsome, but making it look silly or like an object seems fine too.
For example, you could have a warhammer with your holy symbol on it's face, so as to stamp the enemies with your god's mark. Could make a Trident look like a giant dinner fork. Could just go with a very shiny sword. This is all harmless flavor text for your character which is fun and doesn't create issues in the rules. Might have some in-game circumstances where the GM pokes fun at a specific aspect of your customized appearance, but nothing unreasonable.
If you wanted in-game bonuses for the custom appearance, that would require creating a new Named Magic item. For that, you'd need a special quest, either to learn to make it, to find one, or to find someone who can create it. A good side quest, or secondary objective added to the overall campaign for your character specifically. Plus then we add the named weapon to list of houseruled items and allow them to be built/acquired normally in future sessions. A good, fun addition to a gaming group.
Murdock Mudeater: That can work as a house rule but it doesn't really follow for the item. It comes out and says it's a tankard that functions as a light mace, not a light mace that functions as a tankard. I admit it'd be MUCH easier to wrap my head around if it WAS a mace first but that's not how they worked it.
Now I agree with you, I'd most likely do something close to that for a home game. I'm all for making a patch to make things work better. That however doesn't change what the actual rules say: somehow you have to make a masterwork tankard weapon before you can make a magic weapon tankard that works like a mace. After all it's under magic weapons and you have to follow the rules for magic weapon construction.
EDIT: And another question. Does the tankard lose it's magic bonus if it's used AS an improvised weapon? Lets say I'm an urban druid with rough and ready [barmaid] and pick up the tankard. I'm proficient in tankards [no improvised weapon penalty] and not in maces so she smacks someone as a tankard... Is it still magic? And if not why when the haft of your polearm/spear gets the magic when you use various feats in an improvised way.
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Regarding the Tankard that functions as a +1 light hammer. I lack the book it's from, but d20pfsrd lists it as a Named Magic Weapon. So I would argue that it is a weapon first.
EDIT: And another question. Does the tankard lose it's magic bonus if it's used AS an improvised weapon? Lets say I'm an urban druid with rough and ready [barmaid] and pick up the tankard. I'm proficient in tankards [no improvised weapon penalty] and not in maces so she smacks someone as a tankard... Is it still magic? And if not why when the haft of your polearm/spear gets the magic when you use various feats in an improvised way.
Sounds like you've got several cases of confusion on this topic.
First, the non-proficency penalty and the improvised penalty are seperate. Ignoring the improvised penalty to attack doesn't grant proficency. This matters for lots of things, primarily for feats like Weapon Focus, which require proficency in the weapon.
Second, improper use of a magic weapon can allow you to use it improvised. The improvise version loses enhancement bonuses, suffers a -4 attack penalty, a crit range of 20, and an x2 crit damage modifier. Catch off guard/throw anything/rough and ready will negate the attack penalty, but it will not negate the other effects of a weapon being improvised.
That said, the improvised use of the magic weapon will retain it's hardness and HP increases for being an enhanced weapon. If the weapon is made of a specific material, the improvise version will count as that material for the purposes of overcoming DR, as well as determining it's base hitpoints and hardness. Certain other magical abilities may carry over, subject to GM discretion (like the negative level and alignment type for DR with regards to holy/unholy weapons).
So in regard to Spears, no they don't get any enhancement bonus when used in an improvised manner. They might not even get their material type for DR, since the haft is probably still wooden even if they have a cold iron/silver/adamantine head (up to the GM or may depend how the character describes the weapon). The wooden haft has advantage against rust monsters, while the metal end is better for most other enemies.
Third, Regarding the Tankard, that would be up to the GM if it can be used in an improvised manner at all. You'd have to described how you were using it, that would not be a proper way to use that item. If it was allowed, you'd lose the magical enhancement bonus, and if you had feats/abilities that benefited from a light hammer, those would also be lost. If you had feats that improved improvised weapons, you would gain those.
** spoiler omitted **
It says "This steel tankard functions as a +1 light hammer." It is not however a light hammer.
What I'd like to know is HOW you actually create this item. You can't create a mastercraft tankard weapon to enchant it in the first place so do you enchant a mastercraft light hammer and then somehow transform it into a tankard afterwards? As-is, it seems a Cailean Fighting Tankard is impossible to create.
Or is there some 'unwritten' way to make a non-weapon act like a masterwork item so you can enchant it?
You use Occam's Razor.
Improvised weapons are, and always have been, weapons. There was never any restriction on masterwork improvised weapons or the enchantment of improvised weapons.
All the questions about how does this work, how did this item get created, how do I resolve this, all the corner cases, they all go away by using the simplest answer.
Hmm, I would think that a Gnomish Greatclub would be slightly larger and heavier than a Human Club, given the difference in their statistics. For example, a Human Club does a d6, weighs 3 lbs., and can be thrown; meanwhile a Gnomish Greatclub does a d8, weighs 4 lbs., and cannot be thrown.
Their disparate masses alone indicate they cannot be the same physical object. Sticks just don't typically gain or lose mass depending upon who is holding them.
So your position is a random stick or tree branch can only be used as a small great club if it weighs precisely four pounds? Sorry no, that sticks weighs 4.2 lbs, it's an improvised weapon, not a club.
Or is it your position that the stick's weight changes based upon its usage as either a simple or martial weapon?
Neither position seems likely given the weapon descriptions.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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The simplest answer is an improvised weapon is a non weapon and if you make an improvised weapon into a masterwork or magic weapon it ceases to be improvised and becomes whatever type of weapon it was classified (masterwork club) like what happens for living grimoire.
First, the non-proficency penalty and the improvised penalty are seperate. Ignoring the improvised penalty to attack doesn't grant proficency. This matters for lots of things, primarily for feats like Weapon Focus, which require proficency in the weapon.
Nope, the -4 Penalty for using an improvised weapon is explicitly defined as being a proficiency penalty. Also the verbiage of the Catch-Off-Guard and Simple Weapon Proficiency Feats are consistent in that they simply state you don't suffer penalties for using the described classification of weapons.
The simplest answer is an improvised weapon is a non weapon and if you make an improvised weapon into a masterwork or magic weapon it ceases to be improvised and becomes whatever type of weapon it was classified (masterwork club) like what happens for living grimoire
The Living Grimoire's Holy Book class feature never actually says the book ceases to be an Improvised Weapon.
First: It says that it deals damage as if it were a cold iron light mace. This matches the verbiage of numerous other improvised weapons by defining their "equivalent statline". For example, Arrows deal damage as if they were daggers when used as improvised weapons.Second: It says that the tome can be enchanted as a magic weapon, which is a necessary clause in this case because there is no masterwork equivalent to a spellbook, and nothing in the class feature previously defined it as being masterwork.
Likewise, nothing in Sacred Word transforms the Tome into an actual Manufactured Weapon. It remains an Improvised Weapon the entire time, albeit with special permission to be enchanted (without being masterwork), gain an untyped +1 bonus to attack rolls, and deal damage as a cold-iron light mace (or use the Warpriest's Sacred Weapon damage progression.
So your position is a random stick or tree branch can only be used as a small great club if it weighs precisely four pounds? Sorry no, that sticks weighs 4.2 lbs, it's an improvised weapon, not a club.
Or is it your position that the stick's weight changes based upon its usage as either a simple or martial weapon?
Neither position seems likely given the weapon descriptions.
No, my position is that a random branch found on the ground can never be considered a Medium Club or a Small Greatclub interchangeably dependent solely on whomever is wielding it at the time; precisely because said weapons have different masses, qualities and market values. The GM must decide when the item is first acquired what type of weapon it counts as (if any), and it remains that type of weapon forever after unless acted upon by a more specific rule (such as a spell or craft roll). For example, I might allow a character to use a Small Greatclub as the materials to Craft a Medium Club by shaving it down to an appropriate shape and mass. I might also allow a character to use a Medium Club to Craft a Small Greatclub by affixing a rock to it or something like that.
On less related notes:
There is a section in the horribly written rules for Custom Weapon Design (From the Weapon Master's Handbook) that allows the creation of Weapons which act as Tools. So making a Custom Masterwork Battle Tankard which has the statline of a Light Mace but counts as a Tankard is probably possible using that system.
If you buy a Mithril Skillet, it counts as masterwork (per the description for mithril), and therefore meets the basic qualification to survive being enchanted, and therefore can be enchanted as a +1 Flaming Mithril Skillet. However, that doesn't mean it gained a +1 enhancement bonus to attack rolls when used as an improvised weapon before it was enchanted. Likewise having been so enchanted, it won't add it's +1 enhancement bonus as a magical improvised weapon to Profession (Cook) rolls... though as a Flaming Skillet I might require that such a bonus be made part of its enchantment pricing so that it did.
Likewise, the rules don't actually prevent you from Enchanting your masterwork greatsword's pommel as a magical improvised weapon, but you only gain such bonuses when you use the pommel as an improvised weapon, and is no more cost effective than enchanting a Double Weapon (less so in fact because most character's aren't proficient with Greatsword Pommels.
Here are some new Ethnic Weapons for ya'll. Built using the Weapon Design Rules from the Weaponmaster's Handbook.
Halfling Warskillet (8 DP)
Exotic Light Melee Weapon (Close & Hammers)
Traditional (Halfling) (1 DP), Tool (Skillet), Concealed (1 DP), Increased Damage (1d8) (3 DP), Improved Critital Multiplier (x3) (3 DP).
Dmg (M) 1d8; Critical x3; Type (B); Price 9 gp 6 sp; Weight 12 lbs.
Dwarven Wartankard (8 DP)
Exotic Light Melee Weapon (Close & Hammers)
Traditional (Dwarven) 1 DP), Tool (Tankard), Concealed (1 DP), Increased Damage (1d8) (3 DP), Improved Critital Multiplier (x3) (3 DP).
Dmg (M) 1d8; Critical x3; Type (B); Price 8 gp 6 cp; Weight 6 lbs.
EDIT: Note, I used the Light Mace as the basis for their weight, and then modified it accordingly per the instructions for the Tool quality.
We know from developer comments it ceases being an improvised weapon.
The developer's unofficial, unsubstantiated opinions are not credible evidence in a discussion of the game mechanics as they are currently written. Until the developers choose to release an Errata, FAQ, or Clarification document supporting their opinions, said opinions are irrelevant to the rules discussion at hand.
First, the non-proficency penalty and the improvised penalty are seperate. Ignoring the improvised penalty to attack doesn't grant proficency. This matters for lots of things, primarily for feats like Weapon Focus, which require proficency in the weapon.
Are they?
Rough and Ready: "you do not take the improvised weapon penalty"Exotic Weapon Proficiency : "You make attack rolls with the weapon normally."
Martial Weapon Proficiency: "You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty)."
All proficiency means is using normally without the non-proficient penalty. What is the functional difference between these abilities? Both allow the normal use of the weapon without penalty... Just remember that proficiencies don't actually GIVE proficiencies, they just remove penalties: That is unless the lack of penalties IS proficiency... ;)
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We know from developer comments it ceases being an improvised weapon.The developer's unofficial, unsubstantiated opinions are not credible evidence in a discussion of the game mechanics as they are currently written. Until the developers choose to release an Errata, FAQ, or Clarification document supporting their opinions, said opinions are irrelevant to the rules discussion at hand.
It's a fine opinion, but when discussing RAW and the rules and how they work, the developer comments and intent factors prominently in all discussions and provide a context to GM and players.
The simplest answer is an improvised weapon is a non weapon and if you make an improvised weapon into a masterwork or magic weapon it ceases to be improvised and becomes whatever type of weapon it was classified (masterwork club) like what happens for living grimoire.
Failing to explain improvised weapons that are explicitly listed on the weapons tables or what happens when you use Masterwork Transformation on those weapons.
The more caveats and corner cases you have to work around, the less likely you are to have the correct answer.
Improvised weapons following the same rules as every other weapon type has 0 caveats and 0 corner cases. Thus the suggestion to use Occam's Razor when considering which answer is the correct one.
Failing to explain improvised weapons that are explicitly listed on the weapons tables or what happens when you use Masterwork Transformation on those weapons.
That's pretty obvious. The chair you've picked up to use as a great club becomes a masterwork chair - offering the user +2 on their sitting and relaxing check.
Failing to explain improvised weapons that are explicitly listed on the weapons tables or what happens when you use Masterwork Transformation on those weapons.That's pretty obvious. The chair you've picked up to use as a great club becomes a masterwork chair - offering the user +2 on their sitting and relaxing check.
Per RAW, as a great club, it receives a +1 enhancement bonus on to-hit rolls and is eligible for weapon enhancements.
It may or may not also make for a more comfortable seat at GM discretion, but I have been unable to locate RAW on the subject.
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It's interesting for me to see this thread. It seems that a group of people I often agree with and feel are very rational and realistic voice in the threads and are often in the majority with other posters views are up against a group of people that I often read as agitating and very stubborn and inflexible view that is often to me seeming to rage against the norm for change.
Masterwork Transformation turns the target into their Masterwork Equivalent (if any) regardless of intent. Thieves Tools become Masterwork Thieves Tools, and grant a bonus to Disable Device Checks, not Attack Rolls. Even if you have Catch-Off-Guard (or the Thieves Tools Equipment Trick) and intend to stab people with your picks.
However, being Masterwork Items, they can survive the process of being enchanted as +1 Thieves Tools. Which then grant a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls when used an improvised weapons, but not an additional +1 bonus to disable device checks (although once again, I might rule the player has to pay for a bonus to the skill check as part of the enchantment, and thus gains it to the skill check as well).
No, my position is that a random branch found on the ground can never be considered a Medium Club or a Small Greatclub interchangeably dependent solely on whomever is wielding it at the time; precisely because said weapons have different masses, qualities and market values. The GM must decide when the item is first acquired what type of weapon it counts as (if any), and it remains that type of weapon forever after unless acted upon by a more specific rule (such as a spell or craft roll). For example, I might allow a character to use a Small Greatclub as the materials to Craft a Medium Club by shaving it down to an appropriate shape and mass. I might also allow a character to use a Medium Club to Craft a Small Greatclub by affixing a rock to it or something like that.
Per RAW, the defining difference between a club and a great club is
This larger, bulkier version of the common club is heavy enough that you can’t wield it with one hand.
Which is determined by the size of the wielder relative to the item.
Second: if you want to use market value as a determining factor, my character is going to be very wealthy.
Every stick in the woods too large for a gnome to use one-handed is going to have a list value of 5 gp. And you can be darn sure that it will be a gnome picking the sticks up, not a human.
Sticks picked by gnomes are inherently more valuable than sticks picked up humans, by weight.
Per RAW, the other defining and mutually exclusive differences between a Small Greatclub and a Medium Club are that the former is a Martial Weapon which weighs 4 lbs., does 1d8 damage, and has a market value. while the latter is a Simple Weapon which weighs 3 lbs., does 1d6 damage, and can be thrown (even by gnomes, who throw it as a two-handed weapon).
A weapon simply doesn't change mass, proficiency type, damage die, throw-ability, and market value depending upon who wields it.
Nothing in the RAW permits a Medium Creature gets to treat a Small Greatclub as a Medium Club instead. If your argument were true, the rules would explicitly permit it (being a permissive ruleset). the fact is, although said Medium creature can use a Small Greatclub in one hand, the Small Greatclub remains a martial weapon that does 1d8 damage, cannot be thrown (except as an improvised thrown weapon) and the wielder suffers (at least) a -2 penalty because the weapon is inappropriately sized for them.
Per RAW, the other defining and mutually exclusive differences between a Small Greatclub and a Medium Club are that the former is a Martial Weapon which weighs 4 lbs., does 1d8 damage, and has a market value. while the latter is a Simple Weapon which weighs 3 lbs., does 1d6 damage, and can be thrown (even by gnomes, who throw it as a two-handed weapon).
Many weapons change weapon categories based on who is using them or how they are used. Clubs are far from unique in this aspect.
A weapon simply doesn't change mass, proficiency type, damage die, throw-ability, and market value depending upon who wields it.
Unless you are ruling that all sticks are neatly categorized into discreet weight categories, and that all sticks must be weighed prior to usage, it's not going to fly. The actual description of the weapons leaves far more variance in form than a simple line item entry on the table, and weapon descriptions have always superseded line item entries when past conflicts have been resolved by FAQ or errata.
Nothing in the RAW permits a Medium Creature gets to treat a Small Greatclub as a Medium Club instead. If your argument were true, the rules would explicitly permit it (being a permissive ruleset). the fact is, although said Medium creature can use a Small Greatclub in one hand, the Small Greatclub remains a martial weapon that does 1d8 damage, cannot be thrown (except as an improvised thrown weapon) and the wielder suffers (at least) a -2 penalty because the weapon is inappropriately sized for them.
Refer to the general rules for inappropriately sized weapons.
Cross reference with club definitions.The two sets of rules, when combined, allow a character to choose how the stick is used, which proficiencies are required, and how much damage is dealt.
Logically enough, a stick used with martial proficiency deals more damage than a stick used with simple weapon proficiency. A smaller stick used with martial weapon proficiency may be less accurate if it lacks the heft and leverage a character of any given size requires for effective usage with that combat style.
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That's pretty obvious. The chair you've picked up to use as a great club becomes a masterwork chair - offering the user +2 on their sitting and relaxing check.Per RAW, as a great club, it receives a +1 enhancement bonus on to-hit rolls and is eligible for weapon enhancements.
It may or may not also make for a more comfortable seat at GM discretion, but I have been unable to locate RAW on the subject.
I'm not seeing any written rule equating masterwork status for an item in its normal use being the same as masterwork status for its use as an improvised weapon.
Moreover, if you look at the spell refine improvised weapon, a spell that temporarily confers the object with the equivalence of being a masterwork weapon, that doesn't also confer masterwork quality on the object for its normal use. So it looks to me, if I have to lawyer my way through this, that masterwork for normal use and masterwork for improvised weapon use aren't the same thing or at the very least that having one doesn't imply having the other.
@Snowlilly
I am saying that I would rule that any given "found stick" counted as the weapon it was closest to in terms of mass and shape, and that once decided what weapon it counted as that definition would not change depending upon who wielded it.
I have referred to and studied the rules for Inappropriately Sized Weapons numerous times. They do not support your argument. The rules for inappropriately sized weapons say nothing about using the stat-lines of entirely different weapon instead of their own. What they do allow is for said weapons to be used at penalty, and by increasing or decreasing their effective handedness.
Neither do the specific rules for Clubs and Greatclubs make any mention of being interchangeable under any circumstances.
A Halfling can never treat a Medium Longsword as if it were a Small Greatsword instead, thereby gaining the benefits of their Weapon Focus (Greatsword). Likewise, said Halfling cannot steal an Orc's Medium Club and use it as if it were a Small Greatclub instead. However, they may still use it as a Medium Club, taking a -2 penalty to Attack Rolls and being forced to wield it two-handed as per the actual rules for inappropriately sized weapons.
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What is the functional difference between these abilities? Both allow the normal use of the weapon without penalty... Just remember that proficiencies don't actually GIVE proficiencies, they just remove penalties: That is unless the lack of penalties IS proficiency... ;)
Yes and no. The difference is that a player with weapon proficency is both proficent AND lacks the non-proficency penalties. The player with catch off guard remains non-proficecent, but removes the penalty on attack. Functionally they are the same, until you try stacking other feats and abilties that require proficency.
So you can have weapon focus (longsword), but weapon focus (improvised) isn't an option. And, furthermore, the fighter weapon specialization or the warpriest sacred weapon damage doesn't apply to improvised weapons.
And regarding Catch Off Guard, it's a really overpowered feat when combined with sneak attack and two weapon fighting (or other sources of bonus attacks per round), if you allow it to stack with weapon feats and magical enhancements. It becomes balanced by improvised weapons not having access to magical enhancements or weapon feats.
Or rather, If I can take Catch off guard, weapon specialization (improvised weapon), and magically enhance the improvised weapons: What is the point of every other weapon? Catch Off Guard is an amazing feat, balanced only by it's incompatibility with other weapon feats.
As is, Catch off Guard is amazing with two-weapon fighting (or haste). Just disarm/sunder in place of an attack with the main hand, the use your improvised off-hand weapon to strike them flat footed. If you've got sneak attack, add that in to the off hand attack, but just having them flat footed is really strong.
I'm not seeing any written rule equating masterwork status for an item in its normal use being the same as masterwork status for its use as an improvised weapon.
I'm not seeing any specific RAW exempting improvised weapons from the general weapon rules.
I'm also not seeing any RAW that restricts masterwork quality to a specific purpose.
There is, however, RAW that allows for masterwork shields, made masterwork as armor, to be enhanced as masterwork weapons. There is also specific RAW that states shields can be made masterwork only as armor.
That's pretty obvious. The chair you've picked up to use as a great club becomes a masterwork chair - offering the user +2 on their sitting and relaxing check.Per RAW, as a great club, it receives a +1 enhancement bonus on to-hit rolls and is eligible for weapon enhancements.
It may or may not also make for a more comfortable seat at GM discretion, but I have been unable to locate RAW on the subject.
I'm not seeing any written rule equating masterwork status for an item in its normal use being the same as masterwork status for its use as an improvised weapon.
Moreover, if you look at the spell refine improvised weapon, a spell that temporarily confers the object with the equivalence of being a masterwork weapon, that doesn't also confer masterwork quality on the object for its normal use. So it looks to me, if I have to lawyer my way through this, that masterwork for normal use and masterwork for improvised weapon use aren't the same thing or at the very least that having one doesn't imply having the other.
The only thing I can think of that is close to showing this precedent is shields. Masterwork shields are masterwork for armor, but can be made magic weapons if they are masterwork.
And if there are any +1 improvised weapons in a book it can be reasoned that they had to be made somehow.Now I agree that you can't get magically enhanced improvised weapons. But here's where you might start to see why they think it.
And regarding Catch Off Guard, it's a really overpowered feat when combined with sneak attack and two weapon fighting (or other sources of bonus attacks per round), if you allow it to stack with weapon feats and magical enhancements. It becomes balanced by improvised weapons not having access to magical enhancements or weapon feats.
Or rather, If I can take Catch off guard, weapon specialization (improvised weapon), and magically enhance the improvised weapons: What is the point of every other weapon? Catch Off Guard is an amazing feat, balanced only by it's incompatibility with other weapon feats.
Part of what balances Improvised Weapons (even potentially enchanted ones), is that their stat-lines are sub-par even compared to Simple Weapons. They never have a Crit Range & Multiplier better than 20/x2, generally never do more than a 1d8 of damage, cannot be thrown more than 50 ft. (with a 10ft. Range increment), and generally don't have any Special Features.
Even classes like Warpriest which can overcome some of these issues would have been much, much better off spending a feat on proficiency with Exotic Weapon or saving the feat and using a Martial Weapon instead for the better crit range/multiplier or special qualities they possess. That is of course assuming your GM even lets you take Weapon Focus with an improvised weapon in order to make it a Sacred Weapon.
I'm not seeing any written rule equating masterwork status for an item in its normal use being the same as masterwork status for its use as an improvised weapon.
I'm not seeing any specific RAW exempting improvised weapons from the general weapon rules.
I'm also not seeing any RAW that restricts masterwork quality to a specific purpose.
There is, however, RAW that allows for masterwork shields, made masterwork as armor, to be enhanced as masterwork weapons. There is also specific RAW that states shields can be made masterwork only as armor.
Except that the masterwork chair isn't manufactured as a weapon - it's a chair. It just happens to be mobile enough that someone can pick it up and use it as a weapon. It's a bit of a stretch to look at the specific rule that you could apply an offensive enchantment to a masterwork shield, despite the fact it doesn't have an offensive masterwork bonus, and generalize that to masterwork items not manufactured as either weapons or shields simply because they can be picked up and used to clobber someone.
That said, my character's going to pay to have a masterwork picnic table made and enchant it with brilliant energy just in case some giant comes along and uses it to bash someone. Plus, it'll give off light for those nighttime backyard barbecues.
Right, I agree that it doesn't work. Just that's the only thing that seems close. The shield is for armor and yet now I can make it a magic weapon. This pan is for frying and yet now you can make it magic.
Improvised weapons shouldn't have had rules on them. They should have kept them as nothing, but then had a feature that could turn improvised weapons into actual weapons. Them seemingly blurring the line with how weapon-like are improvised weapons leads people to thinking random things.
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Which he wouldn't because they aren't weapons. Sacred bag of flour for xd6 damage.
I would, and I'm usually the GM in my FtF groups. However I am an unusually permissive GM given the trends I see here.
So yeah, if you took Weapon Focus (Flour Sack) as a Warpriest, you can deal Sacred Weapon damage with it in my campaign... though I might suggest a sturdier sacred weapon than that.
I might also suggest you worship the Halfling God of Home Cooking (Whose domains include Fire and Community, and whose favored weapon is the Halfling Warskillet).
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Part of what balances Improvised Weapons (even potentially enchanted ones), is that their stat-lines are sub-par even compared to Simple Weapons. They never have a Crit Range & Multiplier better than 20/x2, generally never do more than a 1d8 of damage, cannot be thrown more than 50 ft. (with a 10ft. Range increment), and generally don't have any Special Features.
Even classes like Warpriest which can overcome some of these issues would have been much, much better off spending a feat on proficiency with Exotic Weapon or saving the feat and using a Martial Weapon instead for the better crit range/multiplier or special qualities they possess. That is of course assuming your GM even lets you take Weapon Focus with an improvised weapon in order to make it a Sacred Weapon.
They are subpar compared to SOME martial and simple weapons. Some of the improvised weapons are as good.
For example, the Miner's Pick (CRB) is a two handed improvised weapon that deals damage as a Heavy Pick. The Heavy Pick is one-handed, but could be wielded in two hands, resulting in the same Damage, with the x4 crit mod being the loss. The Crowbar has the same profile as a club of it's size, except isn't made of wood. The Shovel has the same profile.
And then you have the Improvised Weapon Mastery feat. Ups the improvised weapon by 1 die step and gives it a crit range of 19-20/x2. And that's just a CRB feat.
So with improvised weapon mastery, the one-handed Crowbar/Shovel is 1d8 Bludgeoning, 19-20/x2. That is better than a Club (equal to an undersized greatclub with improved critical). And depending if the GM allows oversized and undersized improvised weapons, you can really get some pretty awesome Crowbars or shovels.
Personally, I'm a fan of the Torch. Base improvised weapon is one handed with 1d3 bludgeoning +1 fire damage. Not a great weapon, but at low levels it can be quite substancial to be able able to deal fire damage, to have a light source that doesn't require magic, and doesn't take away from your option to carry weapons (like a lantern would).
Bear in mind, most Improvised Weapons only mimics the "Damage" column of the weapon it is listed as being similar to. So the miners pick (which deals damage as a Heavy Pick) or an Arrow (which deals damage as a Dagger) still has a critical column of 20/x2.
And regarding Crowbars or Shovels. "Dealing damage equal to that of a club" is not the same as "functions as a Club". it cannot be thrown as a Club unless you also take Throw Anything. So in the end you are talking about spending two feats to gain at best the effective benefits of one feat (Martial Weapon Proficiency (Longsword)) and a minor synergy with other feats (Improved Disarm and such). In addition, Improvised Weapon Mastery caps out at d8, so you cannot even use a Large Crowbar or Shovel to do more damage, because they do d8 base, which the feat then increases to... d8.
I am also fond of Torches as improvised weapons, but Torch-Bearer is a better single feat investment for that route, as it negates non-proficiency penalties and increases the damage to 1d6+1 (as per a Light Mace, but on fire). Of course, it's still a One-Handed Weapon (instead of a Light Weapon) so less than ideal for Lord-Of-The-Rings style Two-Weapon Fighting.
Plus, short of certain specific class features, there is no way to create an Everburning Torch that actually functions like a real torch and does fire damage.
What is the functional difference between these abilities? Both allow the normal use of the weapon without penalty... Just remember that proficiencies don't actually GIVE proficiencies, they just remove penalties: That is unless the lack of penalties IS proficiency... ;)Yes and no. The difference is that a player with weapon proficency is both proficent AND lacks the non-proficency penalties.
Here is the rub... Where in martial, simple or exotic weapon proficiency feats are you given proficiency? The ONLY benefit is removing non-proficiency penalties.
The player with catch off guard remains non-proficecent, but removes the penalty on attack.
Why? It says as much about proficiency in the benefits as the proficiency feats do.
Functionally they are the same, until you try stacking other feats and abilties that require proficency.
Again, where does the proficiency feats grant that?
The best 'rule' on what proficiency is can be seen by what happens if you aren't: "A character who uses a weapon with which he is not proficient takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls." and looking at what proficiency seems to grant: Nothing in the normal rules and under proficiency feats "You make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty)."
Bottom line, being proficient = you "make attack rolls with the selected weapon normally (without the non-proficient penalty)." That is exactly what you do with rough and ready/Catch Off Guard.
If you feel that I'm incorrect, please point out where the proficiency feats actually SAY you are proficient? If not, it would seem to say that it's telling you what proficiency is: Not having a non proficiency penalty and using it normally.
Just to add this, under improvised weapons: "Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses an improvised weapon in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object.": The improvised weapon penalty IS, and I repeat IS, because you are "nonproficient with it" and because of that you have a "–4 penalty". That sure SOUNDS like a non proficiency penalty... And not taking any non proficiency penalty is what proficiency grants... The only other way to take it is that you have a non proficiency -4 and an improvised -4 for a -8 to attack.
So you can have weapon focus (longsword), but weapon focus (improvised) isn't an option.
No, you couldn't have weapon focus (improvised) anymore than you could have weapon focus (close): you can't take a group but a certain type of weapon. Now I don't see why you couldn't take weapon focus (crowbar} as long as you could use it normally (without penalty), ie proficiency.
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Which he wouldn't because they aren't weapons.
Improvised weapon
Simple weaponMartial weapon
Exotic weapon
It's right in the category name.