My wife believes Estra's power wouldn't let her encounter any cards if both are undead.
Extra credit: Her check mark to powers that happen on examine: How does it work if both have triggers?
Her wording:
"On your turn, you may recharge a spell to examine the top 2 cards of your location deck. If one of the examined cards has the Undead trait, you may encounter it. (CHECK and you may ignore any power on that card that happens when examined).
1. Take off the top two cards
2. If the first card has a trigger, resolve it
3. If the second card has a trigger, resolve it
4. If one of the examined cards has the Undead trait, you may encounter it
If both have the Undead trait, you choose which of the to encounter, but you don't get to encounter both. Remember you can't encounter the same card more than once in an examine, so if a trigger makes you encounter, you can't re-encounter it with Estra's power.
The intent seems clear that it should still work even if both cards are Undead; otherwise I'd expect the exclusionary wording "If only one of the examined cards has the Undead trait, you may encounter it." Either way, triggers go off before Estra's power.
I see the issue. I'm not sure how the wording could have been improved.
I'm with skizzerz that the fact that both cards have the Undead trait doesn't make "If one...has the Undead trait" false. Does one card have the Undead trait? Yes. And so does the other.
I think Estra can pick which Undead card she wants to apply her powers to. The other card is processed without reference to these powers.
Extra credit (misread the question initially): If you check the second power, then you get to ignore the trigger on one (but not both) of the cards that have the Undead trait. After potentially resolving the trigger on the other card, you may then encounter the one you ignored.
Esta says "if one of the examined cards..." It could have said "if any of the examined cards..."
That would mean she could encounter both (Undead) cards, which is obviously not the intent. Maybe it's again an issue with me being non-native English speaker, but I don't see the issue with "if one of the examined cards" - it can mean several thing such as "if exactly one card" (which seems completely illogical to me), or "if ANY ONE card..." (which seems to be the intent to me) - would that second wording work for y'all?
Also, I'm not sure if maybe I'm repeating what Skizzers meant to say with different words, but the sequence would be:
1) Examine the top card
2) If it's Undead - decide if you want to ignore any trigger effects; otherwise, apply any Trigger effects
3) If it's Undead AND still applicable (i.e the card didn't make you encounter it, or instructed you to do something else with it BESIDES shuffle) - you decide whether to encounter it
3.1) If the top card is not banished at this point (or instructed you to display it, or place it somewhere else, such as the bottom of the location, etc.), whether you encountered it or not - set it aside
4)Examine the second card
5) If Undead, and you didn't ignore any Trigger on the top card - you may ignore any trigger now; otherwise, apply any triggers
6) If Undead, and you didn't chose to encounter the top card - you may chose to encounter this one
6.1) If the second card is not banished at this point - set it aside (this is a purely "game logic" step, you wouldn't probably do that IRL)
7) If any of the cards set aside has to be shuffled back into the location (such as by failing to defeat it) - shuffle ALL the set aside cards into the location; otherwise - return the set aside cards to the location in the same order
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I tend to read it as (if you checked both powers):
- look at both cards, setting them aside and keeping them in order
- if at least one is undead, decide if you will encounter an undead card and if so which one.
- if you decide that you will encounter one, decide if you will ignore triggers on that card
- resolve the examination of the first card in order (unless there is no trigger or you decided to ignore it)
- resolve the examination of second card (unless...)
- encounter the card you decided to encounter (if any, unless you already encountered it as part of the resolution of one of the two previous points)
Until told otherwise by the powers to be. IMHO.
My interpretation is the same as Frencois'.
I think it could have been better worded, but at the expense of word count.
Also, I'm not sure if maybe I'm repeating what Skizzers meant to say with different words, but the sequence would be:
No, that is not the correct sequence. With the ignore power in effect, Frencois comes closest to what is correct by RAW, although is still off with one minor detail.
Relevant rules:
Always perform the first action required by a power before performing any other action. For example, if a card says “Recharge this card to recharge a card from your discard pile,” recharge the card you’re playing before recharging the card from your discard pile.
Sometimes a card allows you to examine one or more cards—that means looking at the specified card and then putting it back where it came from. ... Examine the cards in the order you find them, and put them back in the same order unless instructed otherwise. If anything would cause you to shuffle the deck while you are examining cards, shuffle the deck only after you put the cards back. (Examining cards is not exploring, though it may happen during an exploration.)
If a card allows you to examine a card and then encounter it, and the card you examine says that when you examine it, you encounter it, encounter it only once.
So, to fully parse the power, including the optional power feat:
1. "On your turn, recharge a spell" - self explanatory2. "to examine the top 2 cards of your location deck."
2.1. Look at the top card of the deck and put it back. If it has a power that happens when it is examined, that power is resolved now. If it has the Undead trait, you may choose to ignore that power. Note that you have not seen what the second card is yet at this point due to "Examine the cards in the order you find them" and the act of examining is what lets us look at the card.
2.2. Look at the second card of the deck and put it back. If it has a power that happens when it is examined, that power is resolved now. If it has the Undead trait and you did not ignore any when examined powers in step 2.1, you may choose to ignore that power.
2.3. If you needed to shuffle the deck for whatever reason as part of resolving 2.1, you do so now instead of back then (as the second card had not yet been examined/replaced yet).
3. "If one of the examined cards has the Undead trait, you may encounter it." - If you ignored a when examined power in 2.1 or 2.2, that is the same card you are allowed to encounter here. Otherwise, if both cards have the Undead trait, you may choose one of them to encounter. In either case, if you had to previously encounter it in the course of the examine, you are not allowed to encounter it again.
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It's definitely not the way Longshot11 describes as the first part of the power explicitly states to "examine the top 2 cards".
So you would:
1) Recharge a spell and examine the top 2 cards of the location.
2) Look to see if one or both have the Undead trait. Make note that some locations give cards the Undead trait.
3a) If both of the cards (that have the Undead trait) have powers that happen when they are examined, you can then choose which one to encounter and thus ignore the examine power. NOTE: You have to still deal with both cards in the order they were examined. It's just that you can choose which one you get to ignore the Trigger if you choose to encounter that one.
3b) If only one of the cards (that both have the Undead trait) has powers that happens when you examine it, you can choose to encounter that one and thus ignore the Trigger condition.
When you examine cards, they don't change order so the Triggers happen in the order they were examined.
Not sure if the power needs to be worded better as it works as written as well as Triggered cards working as written. If the power doesn't work this way, then it needs to be reworded though.
Chief Technical Officer
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Theryon: Almost there, but the way you worded it might imply to some that in 3b, you can't choose to encounter the one that doesn't have a power that happens when you examine it. When both have the Undead trait, you can choose to encounter either—the "ignore" power just doesn't do anything if the card doesn't have a power that happens when you examine it.
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Make note that some locations give cards the Undead trait.
I ran into this the other night. I don't have the Location(s) in front of me, but I remember checking the wording, and the one I was in said that Monsters you ENCOUNTER gain the Undead trait, not all Monsters in the deck, or which are examined.
Could someone verify this, by any chance? I trust my memory less and less as time goes on.
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Theryon: Almost there, but the way you worded it might imply to some that in 3b, you can't choose to encounter the one that doesn't have a power that happens when you examine it. When both have the Undead trait, you can choose to encounter either—the "ignore" power just doesn't do anything if the card doesn't have a power that happens when you examine it.
Yeah, I didn't mean to imply that. Just a complicated situation but once you break it down, it does simplify. She's just not powerful enough to ignore "BOTH" undead triggers plus what you've mentioned.
Theryon: Almost there, but the way you worded it might imply to some that in 3b, you can't choose to encounter the one that doesn't have a power that happens when you examine it. When both have the Undead trait, you can choose to encounter either—the "ignore" power just doesn't do anything if the card doesn't have a power that happens when you examine it.
Just to clarify, it is designer intent that if you are told to examine multiple cards, that you get to look at all of those cards before resolving triggers in any of them? For example, if the top card is Undead with a trigger and the second is also Undead, can you see both of them before deciding which to use the power on? A strict reading of the rulebook implies this is not the case and you have no knowledge of the 2nd card until after you've finished resolving the trigger on the 1st since you are told to examine cards in the order you found them and the act of examining is what allows you to look at it and is what triggers triggers.
This FAQ has been updated.
Thanks Vic but (blame it on me not being native english speaker) I'm still a bit confuse. Can you answer precisely if you have 5 minutes the following questions:
A)
A1- Does Estra decide which one to encounter after examininig the two cards (in the case both are undead)?
A2- OR does she have to decide whether she enounters the first one after examining it (if undead) and and before examining the second; and if she decides not to encounter she won't be able to encounter that card after examining the second (whether that second card is undead or not)?
B)
Say the first card is an undead with a trigger that enables you to encounter it.
B1 - Can Estra encounter the first one using that trigger (i. e. not using her power) and then if the second card is also undead she can also encounter it?
- OR does the "you may encounter one of them" limit her so the power isn't available anymore after the first encounter? And if so, say the first card is an undead with a trigger that enbles you to encounter it:
B2.1 - Can Estra encounter the second one using that trigger?
B2.2 - OR does the "you may encounter one of them" limit her so that she cannot encounter both (even if the triggers would have allow it)?
Hoping I make sense. Thanks in advance.
B)
Say the first card is an undead with a trigger that enables you to encounter it.
B1 - Can Estra encounter the first one using that trigger (i. e. not using her power) and then if the second card is also undead she can also encounter it?
- OR does the "you may encounter one of them" limit her so the power isn't available anymore after the first encounter?
If you chose to use the Trigger "you may encounter" - it does not cancel Estar's "you may encounter" - so you can use it for the second card.
And if so, say the first card is an undead with a trigger that enbles you to encounter it:
B2.1 - Can Estra encounter the second one using that trigger?
I'm not sure what you're suggesting here - that you encounter the first card (which has an encounter Trigger) through Estra's power, then use the first card's Trigger to encounter the second one?!? - you can't do that. (However, as I said above, this is no issue - you can encounter the first from its Trigger, and then the second - from Estra's power)
A)
A1- Does Estra decide which one to encounter after examininig the two cards (in the case both are undead)?
A2- OR does she have to decide whether she enounters the first one after examining it (if undead) and and before examining the second; and if she decides not to encounter she won't be able to encounter that card after examining the second (whether that second card is undead or not)?
IMHO: Given the new updated FAQ (where ignoring Triggers is no longer attached to encountering) - only Triggers interrupt the normal "flow" of your actions; given that you don't examine (or you chose to ignore) Triggers that make you encounter - you must "finish one thing before another", so you finish your current action ("examine the top 2 cards"), and THEN you may chose if and which one to encounter (A1)
So, if Card 1 has "you may encounter" trigger, you CAN:
- accept the trigger on examination; encounter Card 1; then examine Card 2 and encounter it, either through its own Trigger, or through Ester's power
You CANNOT:
Examine both cards, then encounter Card 1 through its trigger, and card 2 through Estra's power (because you had to chose to accept teh Card 1 Trigger *BEFORE* you have seen what Card2 is)
Hi Longshot. I agree with all your interpretations, and that's how we play it, but I still feel that with the actual wording someone defending the opposite vision would have a case.
And if so, say the first card is an undead with a trigger that enbles you to encounter it:
B2.1 - Can Estra encounter the second one using that trigger?
I'm not sure what you're suggesting here - that you encounter the first card (which has an encounter Trigger) through Estra's power, then use the first card's Trigger to encounter the second one?!? - you can't do that. (However, as I said above, this is no issue - you can encounter the first from its Trigger, and then the second - from Estra's power)
My question is: does the fact that Estra does encounter two undead prohibits her to encounter both no matter what (even if troggers would seems to allow it)?
A1 is correct, you choose to encounter after you finish examining (so after all triggers are resolved on both cards).
B. You cannot encounter the same card more than once in the course of a single examine power. However, encountering one for its trigger does not preclude you from encountering the other one for Estra's power. You can encounter each card up to once, provided you get an extra encounter from somewhere (trigger, at this location effect, scenario power, etc).
Hi skizzerz. As I said I agree and that's how we play it. But still, if I read that following paragraph slowly:
"On your turn, you may recharge a spell to examine the top 2 cards of your location deck. If any examined card has the Undead trait, you may encounter 1 of them."
Wouldn't it imply in good english: "i. e. you cannot encounter both"?
Cards don't say what they don't but I'm still puzzled for whatever reason.
"On your turn, you may recharge a spell to examine the top 2 cards of your location deck. If any examined card has the Undead trait, you may encounter 1 of them."
Wouldn't it imply in good english: "i. e. you cannot encounter both"?
This means *BY ESTRA'S POWER, you may only encounter ONE OF THE TWO cards, even if both are Undead* - it poses no additional restrictions. Therefore, any additional sources of "you may encounter" (Triggers, etc.) apply in their own right. Estra's power doesn't care if something else will help you encounter the second card.
"On your turn, you may recharge a spell to examine the top 2 cards of your location deck. If any examined card has the Undead trait, you may encounter 1 of them."
Wouldn't it imply in good english: "i. e. you cannot encounter both"?
No.
That would be: "...you may only encounter 1 of them."
In contrast, "... you may encounter 1 of them" grants you the ability, using this power, to encounter one of the cards; it does not limit your further encounters.
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Chief Technical Officer
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It's my turn. I recharge a spell to go through the following process:
• I examine the first card. If it's Undead, I can ignore the Trigger. Otherwise, I do the Trigger (and it is possible that the Trigger might cause me to encounter the card).
• I examine the second card. If it's Undead, I can ignore the Trigger (even if I ignored the Trigger on the first card). Otherwise, I do the Trigger (and it is possible that the Trigger might cause me to encounter the card).
• I may now encounter any 1 of them, as long as that 1 is Undead. (If the Trigger power on either of them already made me encounter it, it's no longer in the pool of cards I can choose to encounter.)
• I put any cards that haven't been encountered back on top in the order I found them.
• If I'm using the Speaker to the Dead role, I may shuffle.
Thanks Vic for the confirmation.